Replies

1. 
   GCourter | Dec 28, 2004 02:36am | #1

   Define glass inserts, please.  Do you just want to replace the glass, ie take out the single glaze, put in a double glaze panel, cut down the stops, and resealing.  Or are you interested in replacing the sash area with either a complete window or a sash replacement kit?

2. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 28, 2004 02:49am | #2

   What kind of windows are they?  Are they leaking or falling apart?  New windows are extremely expensive, and often not as good as well maintained or rebuilt old ones.

   If they're casement windows, and you want more R-value, it's possible to make a second set of sash for them, so you have both inswing and outswing in the same jamb.  This has been common practice for centuries in Scandinavia, Russia, and lots of places where it gets very cold.

    

   -- J.S.

    

1. 
   harrisdog43 | Dec 28, 2004 03:34am | #3

   Good questions (why didn't I think to include those facts). FHB had a section in their archives about rebuilding/remaking windows in which the builder bought inserts to replace single pane glass. This was what I was looking to do. Some of them will have to be remade or at least repaired extensively. The old ones are double hung and they do leak...but they also look bad in that pieces are missing and some rot (not a lot really) has occured. I want to put double pane glass in and the author of that piece used the term insert, so I borrowed it. I can take care of the repairs to the wood fine, but I just do not know what will be involved in modifying them so that they will take the extra width. The article wasn't clear about how that was done. I will go back and read it again and see if I can ask a more detailed question.

   john

1. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 28, 2004 04:40am | #5

   My local glass shops will get IG units (that is the glass biz term for a sandwich of two panes of glass with a sealed spacer edge and air inside) for me at any size I order.

   Various thicknesses are available, also.  The thinnest I have ever gotten, though, is 7/16" total.  Modern windows have IG thicknesses of 1/2" up to 3/4".

   Glass in residential windows is typically 1/8" thick, and is referred to as "double strength B"

1. 
   frenchy | Dec 28, 2004 07:51pm | #12

   Gene, 

     Thanks for your reply re: glass,  I don't mean to hijack this thread but what the heck (momma never did accuse me of good manners)   I've neen making my own windows and for a time I could get 1/4 thick glass very cheap, I  add some 1/2 inch spacers and my double pane glass window with black walnut framing wound up costing me a fraction of what an Andersen window did.

     sure the result was 1 inch thick total but it was put into a 2x12 frame with a dado cut  for the glass.  I then put old stained glass windows inside and still have a decent looking ledge  (did I mention it's for a double timber frame, timbers inside and out witha six inch thick SIP in between)?

      Anyway I've used up all of the cheap 1/4 thick glass and now I actaully have to pay street prices for  glass, Gulp...

     My question is,  Do I gain anything (in the line of R value)  with the thicker glass? 

1. 
   DanH | Dec 28, 2004 09:15pm | #13

   Glass is a better insulator that metal, but much worse than air. Thicker glass probably won't make a significant difference in the average window, after you figure in all the other factors.

2. 
   diddidit | Dec 28, 2004 05:06am | #6

   Might you be talking about pocket replacement windows? I remember the article you're talking about, and pocket replacements were one of the options. To install pocket replacements, you remove the inner stop, the lower sash, the parting stop, and the upper sash, then install the replacement window against the outer sash, insulate around the perimeter, and reinstall the outer stop. It's quite easy, although it doesn't look as good as a "normal" window, and it slightly reduces the glass area.I put these in my house - I got mine at the local Menards whenever they were on sale. I got custom sizes made with no problem and for no extra cost. They were el cheapos - Wenco was the manufacturer, they're vinyl-framed with low-e insulated glass. They ranged in price from about $125 to about $160, depending on the size. If you have a somewhat better looking house, I'd spend more than that; these look, feel, and function cheap, but they're such a tremendous imrovement over my old painted-shut, cracked (or broken and replaced with plexiglass), leaky single-pane windows that I don't regret it a bit. Putting in better quality windows on my house in my neighbornood would have been an exercise in turd-polishing, anyway.didI like ice cream

3. 
   byrnesie | Dec 28, 2004 05:17am | #7

   I've ordered thermal glass panels from a local replacement window manufacturer. They weren't expensive, however, they obviously have greater thickness. That was okay for my use, which was an old wooden door that was in good shape ( yes it was tempered safety) because the panes on the door were held in place by wood stop moulding that I replaced with narrower stock. Your going down a different road with the window- you'll have the glazing to deal with. I recommend buying a replacement sash kit, like Pella's 'sash-pak'. This method allows you to remove the old window weights and fill the pockets with insulation- I use a thin dowel and push fiberglass batting in that way, probably as much an enegy saving upgrade as the new window sashes.

1. 
   harrisdog43 | Dec 28, 2004 05:46am | #8

   Thanks for all of the options. Now I just have to find the time to get started. We decided to give them windows for Christmas and their birthdays (same date) so that it will help them get finished with the remodel.

   Why didn't I buy that DeWalt jobsite saw when it was 20% off last week? I really will need it since my cab saw is a tad heavy to haul.

4. 
   DanH | Dec 28, 2004 06:13am | #9

   Any decent-sized glass shop can either make or order double-glazed panels for you. Won't be cheap, though.

1. 
   harrisdog43 | Dec 28, 2004 01:45pm | #10

   Thanks for the reply. I will find out how cheap ($$$) as soon as they open up. Hopefully a bit less than Anderson though.

2. 
   SEBDESN | Dec 28, 2004 04:31am | #4

   John, Wonder if you would elaborate on this. I have some steel casements that I have an inch space in the frame  to reglaze in with double pane glass units... might be pizzin up the proverbial rope, but would be interested in what you had in mind....Hope I didnt derail the thread...

   Bud

1. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 29, 2004 03:01am | #16

   > John, Wonder if you would elaborate on this. I have some steel casements that I have an inch space in the frame  to reglaze in with double pane glass units... might be pizzin up the proverbial rope, but would be interested in what you had in mind....Hope I didnt derail the thread...

   This is a design that dates from long before steel was cheap enough to use for windows, so it's usually done with wood.  Think of how an outswing casement window works, with the outer face of the sash pretty much in the same plane with the outer surface of the wall.  Then think of an inswing casement, with the inner face of the sash in the same plane as the inner surface of the wall.  Now put both sets of sash in the same jamb, resulting in an air space about 4" thick when both are closed.  Forget about fancy but flimsy crank operators, just use long hooks and eyes to keep the open windows from flapping in the wind. 

   The downside to this design is that you have to open or close both sets of sash to open or close a window.  The upside is that you get good insulation, easy access to clean all four surfaces, repairs can be made using ordinary materials, and if you like a traditional Scandinavian look, they're beautiful.

   Given your existing steel frame casements, this would be a lot harder to do than with wood windows, and harder still to make look good.

    

   -- J.S.

    

1. 
   SEBDESN | Dec 29, 2004 03:30am | #17

   Tnx John, Yea you are right that would be real hard to do. I guess I am gonna have to tool up to do some suitable windows...I need some thin casements so I can keep the sills and not come clear out to the outside of the brick...And be kinda efficient...

   Bud 

1. 
   harrisdog43 | Dec 29, 2004 04:41am | #18

   What I found out when I checked with the local glass supplier was that he was within $20 of what I could buy at home depot and I would still have all the aforementioned probs of reconstructing everything. I checked Anderson (also HD) and I was told that I could not get one big enough. The overall measurements are 38x71. I find it hard to believe that I cannot get one from Anderson in that size and even harder that it would wind up costing more up front including the wood necessary to replace damaged areas if I just bought the glass. I am still waiting to hear from Simonton who had offered to set me up as an installer if I took their training.

3. 
   IronHelix | Dec 28, 2004 02:44pm | #11

   A few more comments..............

   If you rebuild sash and retro fit the new IG panels you will have to router out the glazing channel to a greater depth to accept the new panels plus glazing. 

   Retro-ing is not an easy task with the sash assembled.  The bottom sash's top rail has a slot rather than an open glazing channel.....that also presents it's own problems for a retrofit

    IG panels are available in single strength glass up to about 36"x36", after that must be double strength.  Tempered, obscure, tinted add-ons are also available.

   Pricing ranges from $4 Sq.Ft & up.

   Remember that the IG perimeter glass seals require a sealant/caulk that is compatible chemically or they will fail and the IG will fog. 

   Ask the glass supplier for specific reccomendations....or void the warranty

   If you have a lot of these to do consider pricing "Zap-Packs" from Caradco (Jeld Wenn Corp), or Sash Packs from Marvin, Andersen, or most other major Mfg. These use your existing frame and trim and work very well in bringing the old windows up to tighter standards. 

    By the time you add in epoxy, rebuild time, retro fit frustration, glass and spec glazing you may be well ahead to by the retro sash packs.

    

   .........................Iron Helix

4. 
   junkhound | Dec 28, 2004 11:39pm | #14

   How long future in home estimated?  If over 20 years, forget (oh yeah, I know, they make the seals LOTs BETTER NOW than they used to - wanna buy a bridge?) IG unit and go with external or internal storm sash or use frenchy's method.

   If you go IG, the southern facing panes will likey start to fog/einternal etch in about 20 years, northern exposure will last longer.

   If you like to throw money away, send me an e-mail and I'll send you my address

    

1. 
   DanH | Dec 28, 2004 11:48pm | #15

   Our house is 28 years old. A quick estimate is that we have 30 double-glazed panes. Of these, I've had to replace two, one because the snowblower threw a chunck of ice through it, and the other because it got hit (and the seal damaged) when a 4x4 slipped while constructing our deck.All the others are fine -- no fog and no "etching" that I can see.

2. 
   harrisdog43 | Dec 29, 2004 05:23am | #19

   Of course I like to throw money away, that's why I'm putting windows in my son's home (or because I will have to sleep in the garage if I don't). Something has to be done to the window frames already. Momma wants the grandsons to stay warm, so I get to drive 300 miles and do something about it. At least she understands I will need a new truck to haul them in :>)