Replies

1. 
   NormKerr | Apr 29, 2003 07:42pm | #1

   this is a very good example for making this point:

   Ask your inspector what he/she wants you to do. They are paid to be the expert, and usually have some time of the day/week that they can be reached by phone (or to meet them) for this very reason.

   Now, to try and answer your question (but still ask your inspector):

   Some panels are designed so that their breakers can have two wires connected to them ('double tapped') and some are not. The label on the breaker will say if two wires are allowed, if it does not that may be the reason why your inspector dinged you.

   Installing a new breaker for the second wire is one solution.

   Replacing that breaker with a compatible one, made by the same manufacturer for your panel, that is labeled "ok" for two wires is another solution.

   Splicing the two wires together in a box is another solution. Theoretically, a splice in your panel could be ok, but for electrician safety some inspectors won't allow it (if the splice came loose while your electrician was rooting around in there on another circuit they could get zapped). Putting the splice in a box beside the panel avoids that concern.

   Hope this helps,

   Norm "not an electrician, but I read alot" Kerr

2. 
   4Lorn1 | Apr 30, 2003 01:13am | #2

   Wire nut the two leads together and run a new lead to the breaker. This is allowed by the NEC. If you wish to use a suspender and belt approach, I really don't think it is necessary, you could tape the wires together where they enter the wire nut and on up onto the nut. This helps keep the wire nut from vibrating or popping off. A very rare problem for a properly made joint.

   The idea that a loose connection might jump out and get someone rooting around in the panel is false, rare and not a consideration in my humble opinion. There are loads of live and unguarded surfaces in a typical panel. Touching any one of them might cause serious injury. A well made wire nut connection is less likely to cause a problem than one of these. A panel is always to be worked in by "qualified" personnel. Of course the local AHJ has the final say so no matter how illogical their reasoning you will have to comply.

   A loose connection in a panel is not significantly more hazardous than a loose connection in a normal junction box. Having to wire nut a connection in a new panel is a sign of a lack of planning and a mark of shame in many electrical communities but in old work it is a common, and safe, solution. I would, don't, hesitate in using it as long as there is adequate room.

   One additional point. Check the breaker as a few are manufactured to take two wires. In this case the inspector is wrong, not an uncommon situation, and there is no problem.

3. 
   skipj | Apr 30, 2003 04:29am | #3

   Mike,

   Quick note: Even though my breakers are able to handle two wires, my local inspector prefers the pig tail which you describe, so the advice to ask the inspector is right on the money. Also, I've found this 'double ganging' a great space saver, as the NEC requires 20 amp GFCI home runs to bathrooms, but it meets code to put two or more baths on the same breaker. This is not recommended if you have teenaged daughters, although, inexplicably, the NEC fails to address this.

   Good luck.

   skipj

4. 
   MajorWool | Apr 30, 2003 10:34am | #4

   Is this a house inspector who is looking at the property for a purchaser, or the building department electrical inspector?

   If the former, I was under the impression that house inspectors for purchasers couldn't legally remove a panel during an inspection.

   If it was the inspector from the building department checking new work, and you hadn't been in the panel while doing that work, i.e adding an outlet to an existing circuit, why was the panel opened?

   I had outlets for two bedrooms which were wired from different locations, one from below and the other from the attic, which were joined in the service panel and the electrical inspector had no problem with it, though it was placed low in the panel and to the side where it would be well out of the way.

5. 
   rjw | Apr 30, 2003 02:42pm | #5

   (Some) Square D panels are the only ones that allow a double tap.

   In my experience as a home inspector, few multiple taps are problematic, although they can lead to nuisance tripping if the two circuits together are trying to pull more amps than the breaker will permit.  I suspect that's rare.

   Every now and again I'll find one wire in a multiple tap is loose - usually when there's a #14 under one side of a screw and a #12 under the other, but sometimes one or both of 'em are just loose.

   SOME of those loose connections show signs of arcing. 

   I have heard that some jurisdictions don't allow splices in the main panel.  (The explanation I heard is that some inspectors say the main panel is not specifically rated for use as a junction box!)

   Also, FWIW, a few jusrisdictions have taken the position home inspectors should not be inspecting the electrical system or taking the panel off; most allow it, AFAIK.

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/30/2003 7:46:13 AM ET by Bob Walker

1. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 30, 2003 04:29pm | #6

   Bob

   "(Some) Square D panels are the only ones that allow a double tap"

   While there might be some limitation on the pannels, but I am not sure. The basic limitaion is on actual BREAKERS. The Sq D catalog list the number and size of wires allowed for different breakers. It only the smaller breakers (with out trying to find it again it think that it is upto 30 amp).

   And when this came up before I think that I found some other CH breakers that allowed this, but I am not sure.

   " (The explanation I heard is that some inspectors say the main panel is not specifically rated for use as a junction box!)"

   But the code specifically allows it, if there is room.

1. 
   rjw | Apr 30, 2003 06:22pm | #7

   Bill,

   In the various courses I've taken, it's been claimed it's only the Square D's that allow it. And, as you point out, it's the breakers themselves, not the panels.

   Some purists will tell you that you should only use the manufacturer's breakers in it's panel, and some panels that I've look at (more recent ones anyway) specifically require their own breakers for warranty purposes._______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

1. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 30, 2003 06:56pm | #8

   Bob

   You should know my now that home inspectors, at least liberal one, don't know what they are talking about <G, D, & R>.

   http://www.cutler-hammer.eaton.com/unsecure/cms1/F4.PDF

   On page 12 look at the table of wire sizes.

   I won't copy and paste with out becoming a real mess.

   But for CH breakers, one and two poles, 10-30 amps the allowable wire range for CU or AL is;

   1 wire 14-8 or 2 wires 14-10.

   It looks like the BR series is limited to 1 wire.

   Bill

   PS, they have some UL Classified breakers for replace use in other manufactures pannels.

   "Why carry up to six other brands of circuit breakers when the industry's most reputable brand, Cutler-Hammer, is all you need?

   Coming in both one and two-pole configurations, both the CL (one-inch) and the CHQ (3/4-inch) breakers are Classified by Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. for use in place of the breakers listed on the panelboard. In addition to a UL rating, they also come with an outstanding 15-year warranty."

   Edited 4/30/2003 12:03:09 PM ET by Bill Hartmann