I am wondering who double top plates interior walls? I am doing it on a home I am building for my family. It is a cape, 8 foot ceilings, I-joists,2×6 exterior walls and 2×4 interior walls. I like the double plate as it ties the walls in securely, and bolsters the stiffness of a 2×4 interior wall. Also, there’s more there for sheetrock fastening and crown molding fastening as well. My brother (known to be a jerk on occasion) gave me grief about it saying that “nobody I have ever seen” double plates interior walls. He tells me I should have decked the second floor, then built the walls and wedged them into place. So what is the consensus of the building community at large?
Dustin
Replies
My vote,Double top plate all walls.
I haven't been framing houses for several years, but we always doubled the top plate throughout ,always, on every home I ever built, custom or tract.
Most Lumber yards don't carry pre cuts for single top plate interior walls, so rather that cut every stud it is easier to add the other top plate. I think the double tops is a better way to go makes everything stronger. But I will say I have see this done with panel built houses all the time. I have also seen single plates done on 2x6 wall 2'oc with the trusses stacked in line to transfer load down.
Edited 2/2/2006 9:44 pm ET by byoung0454
Edited 2/2/2006 9:54 pm ET by byoung0454
Most Lumber yards don't carry pre cuts for interior walls
That's intersting. Where do you build? I've built in NJ and CT, and had no trouble finding precut 2x4s. It never even occurred to me that they might not be available.
As to double plating, yes, always.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Im not talking about 92 5/8 or 104 5/8 pre cuts I am talking about pre cuts for single top plates. 94 1/8 or 106 1/8
Ahh, that makes sense. Can't say as I've ever seen precuts for single top plates.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I have seen them from my wholesaler and at 84 before.
Andy, I'm appalled. I just read a quote from you that was published in the most recent FHB. It said and I quote; "I believe that good construction ultimately depends on conscientious detailing, but having spent more than half my life as a builder, I'll take an engineer's design over a carpenter's tradition any day."
I agree with you all the way but doesn't the double top plate argument fall under something that really only exists because of a "carpenter's tradition"? From an engineering standpoint single top plates must be just as effective or I doubt if it would be practiced at all anywhere.
Yes, by and large, I agree with the concept of OVE. For example, I think that we need to stop reflexively putting oversized headers everywhere. Just a small amount of thought can reduce the lumber used in a house, increase its insulation level, and reduce both drywall and trim cracks. More than half the windows and doors in most houses don't even need headers, because the rim joist in the floor above is usually plenty strong for spans of 3 ft. or less. In some places, doubling the rim joist takes care of big spans. I built my house that way, but I used double top plates everywhere. As someone who's hung miles of crown, I want double top plates. Engineering doesn't mean that you can't add some details that simplify the carpenter's life.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
>> I think that we need to stop reflexively putting oversized headers everywhere. << I applaud you!!! I have tried to get framers to use smaller headers in load bearing walls but they just don't seem to get it... "Throw a double 2x10 at it - it will always pass unless something bigger is specified on the prints"...
Matt,
What do the construction drawings that you're giving to your framers say the header sizes should be?
You say the framers don't "get it". I "get it", but until the drawings say something different, you'll continue to get 2x10 headers. Your drawings do spec header sizing, right?View Image
Diesel,I want to hear your thoughts on the New England strapping of ceilings with regards to fire spread in a completed structure. I realize that with open web trusses, the whole floor plenum is open, but solid sawn joists or even I-joists with drywall screwed directly to them will break the plenum into bays. It seems a strapped ceiling poses a minor risk of faster flame spread during a house fire.On a positive note, it also seems to me that sound transmission between floors would be reduced with a strapped ceiling.Your thoughts, sir?Bill
bill.. we've always strapped ceilings... avbout 20 years ago we had a local inspector who required us to block our 1x3 strappign every 8' to prevent flame spread
i have other details like dens-pak cellulose that goes way beyond 1x3 blocking to prevent flame spreadMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike, Wow, you are up late, unless you are visiting out west. Agreed, the dens pack cels is the gold standard for flame spread. What the inspector used to ask of you squares with what I've heard in open web trusses where there was drywall required every so often on the side of a truss as a draft stop.What do you think about the acoustic question I posed to Dieselpig?Bill
Regarding increased flame spread on strapped ceilings....
I'll be completely honest with you Bill and tell you that I haven't ever given it much thought. I can certainly see the potential that you speak of though. By breaking the thermal bridge it creates a grid of channels that a thirsty fire could draw air from.
If it was of much concern, I suppose the pattern could be broken up at 10' intervals with rows of 'fire bridging' much like we do with walls over 10'.View Image
The plans on these particular houses did not specify header sizes except some LVLs that were over the bay windows.
Not to sound like a total wisea$$, but what do you think about throwing the header sizing on the plans? I mean, you kind of lose your right to complain about something when you go and leave the decision up to someone else, don't you think?View Image
ya know funny thing we use 2x10 headers in all walls just to make windows and door line up for a freeze board
but about a month ago i was helping frame a house for a couple of days and the framers did not know about a beam schedule .so i guess not to many arcitects use them ???? they had heard sizes as well
"ya know funny thing we use 2x10 headers in all walls just to make windows and door line up for a freeze board"We do the same thing and we also use them on all interior walls too.Joe Carola
Bryan:
They did install the smaller headers as I requested but then packed the openings down with as many as five 2x4s.
Ugggh. Then I agree.... that shows a clear lack of understanding of the concept.View Image
just curious you can get stud's for single top plate??
You can either use full 8 footers and add a strip of drywall, or cut them onsite. Apparantly, precuts are also available for this purpose, although I've never encountered them.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
just curious you can get stud's for single top plate??Some lumber yards will carry them, my wholesaler carry's them.
I double them. Be a pain in the butt not to...
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Tell yer brother to stuff it.
Double top plate interior walls and you don't even need to check 'em for plumb.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
It sounds ars-backwards, but I'll typically frame interior walls with a double bottom plate on interior walls. If there is crown we'll usually run backing over the sheetrock regardless of a double plate, so it doesn't help as much there as it does down low for nailing base.
As a finish carp who then learned to frame, there are a few things that I don't hesitate doing that drives traditional framers crazy. I'm less concerned with saving 10 minutes framing if it will just cause 10 minutes of agravation later.
Another hat I've usually worn is that of problem fixer upper. So there are some preventative things that get framed, in anticiation of future problems.
Cheers,
Don
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
double bottom plate on interior walls - why? For baseboard nailing? Sounds interesting, just curious what decided ya?
I worked for remodeler in salt lake city who doubled the sill plates also. He did it just to help with the baseboard.
double bottom plate on interior walls - why? For baseboard nailing? Sounds interesting, just curious what decided ya?
Huck, It's entirely for better nailing of the baseboard with a little better look than simply nailing scraps inbetween the studs after the wall is up. Looks aren't everything, but when clients see any kind of gaps they always ask if that's normal, like a 1/2" gap between a nailer and stud makes any difference, but they don't know that.
The first year this idea came up we were framing a bunch of 10' 6" interior walls (2x6, 16" oc) for a mountain summer home. The regular framers framed the exterior walls with double bottom plates to allow for 1-1/2" of gypcrete and the entire 10' stud was used uncut to maximize the ceiling height. The finish guys were then used to frame the interior walls while the framers worked on screwing up the roof line.
Since the cost of going to 12' 2x6s and cutting them down was more than simply adding the one additional plate, we put 3 plates down low and one up high. It worked so well when it came time for trim that I've done it ever since. Cutting the extra bottom plate is done at the same time the other plates are being cut so it's not that much extra time. It's nailed directly to the deck prior to standing the wall so that step also takes very little additional time.
We've also gone entirely to double kings and 2x headers for non-bearing walls just to have more to nail to without scabbing in blocks. If casing were wider than 4" I'd even tripple things up rather than scab in scraps. If the GC doesn't have his act together it seems that custom (oddball) height door and window rough openings always get screwed up so we also add an additional 2x to the top of all openings so if the doors need extra room it's easy to strip out the lower 2x.
Windows that sit down at granite counter top height always seem to need more or less height than what is specified (combination of cabinet install error, granite install error, and window dimensions), so the doubled header and sill allow a little more fudge room if something needs to be cut out.
We'll sometimes cover entire closets with plywood so the various widgets and gadgets always have a nailer in the right place. Same goes for trophy rooms so your cape buffalo can be set in exactly the right place to be looking over at your wife's eland and the elk won't fall off onto the mantle.
It's not really framing, but when bathrooms are getting sheetrocked we'll take 14" rips of OSB from the scrap pile and screw them to the inside of the rock where TP holders, towel bars, etc. might be attached. Same goes for any walls that will hold heavy mirrors, expensive paintings or whatnot. It helps if the client or the client's decorator/interior designer is familiar with how the furniture fits into the house. We just hung a 150 lb. mirror and luckily we were able to move it an inch and hit two studs since backing wasn't installed in that area.
Kitchens are usually framed 12" oc or extensive blocking is used so the cabinet guys have a better chance of finding a stud. If tile is going to be installed on any walls, significant blocking is put in at the sheetrock-to-hardibacker transition. The entire area behind an over-stove microwave is blocked so mounting is simply a matter of using cabinet mounting wood screws instead of the big toggle bolts.
Heavy glass shower doors need better framing if you're going with a frameless door, and such things are always changing from the time we get plans to when the install guy shows up, so we always error on the safe side and add the extra lumber.
The strangest blocking has to be on kitchen backsplashes as a place to mount electrical boxes. By installing horizontal blocking it keeps the boxes at the correct height and if a box needs to be moved a little right or left to fit a tile pattern it's a piece of cake instead of a real pita.
Speaking of electrical, we usually ask for as much slack in the wires as they feel comfortable with for the times when a box needs to be moved a little to clear something or align better.
A lot of the stuff we do doesn't make sense unless you're the guy who is on site from start to finish and get to fix other people's errors and make up for the client's and GC's changing minds.
Blah, blah, blah. Sorry to drone on--been a long day. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Wow, lot of great info. in that post! Wish more subs worked with the following trades, but everything is about whats the minimum I can get away with. I used to super projects start to finish, so I understand your philosophy. Ounce of prevention."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Don, your method makes perfect sense to me! I've often thought that it would make more sense to put the double on the bottom for trim, but I've never done it.
I have framed a lot of houses with interior single plate construction. We can get precuts to do that but I rarely see them anymore except in Pulte type projects.
blue
here are some reasons come to mind for your BIL , you have one legit reason is the stiffness, also there are compression forces that would react diffrently with just one plate, would compromise the integrity( bows, sags) of the wall that would telegraph to the sheetrock which means at the very least nail pops.continuty is the key to a good job jambing something up with a shim , does not.....period . tell copernicus shrinkage can rear it's head a few years down the road.especially around doors and windows, cabinets ,tile especially if it is above an interior bearing partition. my thought is a building elements work together as a whole, and one or more are compromised so goes a good job and your hopefully good rep..... ask the diesel pig i suspect he would give you an ear full..... or at least some good direction..... slainte' k
..
Thanks for the replies everyone. I was pretty sure the double top plate was standard, just wanted to check with people in the know.
Dustin
I guess we're the exception to the rule, but we're always being different up here in New England.
Around here we frame all non bearing interier partition walls after the roof is on. We also strap our ceilings too, so that makes it easier. The ceilings get strapped first. Then we frame our walls with a single top plate with the same pre-cuts we use for the rest of the house. Now our walls are 3/4" short, right? So we use up scraps of strapping on top of the walls, flip 'em up into place, knock 'em around plumb, and shoot right through the top plate in the ceiling strapping. Fast and easy for us.... guess it's all what you're used to. It's pretty much SOP here in MA.
I guess a double top plate on non bearing partition wall would make it "stronger".... but what for? That an awful lot of wasted lineal ($$) stock to me. I shouldn't say 'wasted', maybe unnecessary is a better choice of wording.
I also like framing all the partion walls afterwards as it leaves us a nice open space to work in while we're framing the floor above. Less crap in the way.
I'm not saying one way is right and one way is wrong. Just trying to shed light on another way of doing things that creates a build of equal quality. View Image
huh.. i'm takin' back some... i love the idea of strapping the cieling, but what steps do you take for crown if any??when i was living in rhode island they strapped but doubled the tops, granted i only worked for two companies in seven years. here in long island they dont strap.which in my opinion is a big mistake. the cieling suffers for it, they over frame here and i've become a vehicle for that.
well i guess i'm mea culpa and should take nothing for granted.... slainte' stay safe .." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
That an awful lot of wasted lineal ($$) stock to me.
Comin from a guy who straps all ceilings?
Sorry...."Shaken" made me say it! LOL!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Edited 2/3/2006 11:14 pm ET by JDRHI
That's very interesting. Never seen it or even heard of it, but it makes a lot of sense - provided you are going to strap all the ceilings. When I read the OP's post saying >> He tells me I should have decked the second floor, then built the walls and wedged them into place. << I thought, that sounded like a really bad idea, but yor method would work great.
I was watching this thread, and I'm w you. I grew up just w of Boston and learned to frame exactly as you described. I moved away from the area about 15 years ago, and have not in my travels come across the high standard of trades work we have there any place else. Some of what I see is a wash - that is - just a different way of accomplishing the same thing, but a lot of what I see is a compromise of quality, or an otherwise misdirection of effort, or waste of time and material.
I have been in the Pheonix area the last five months doing an 1800ft2 adobe addition. Nice project, adobe is a lot of fun. I installed the interior non bearing walls a few weeks ago. The inspector dings me for not having double top plates. Actually made me "fix" them. OK, I should of checked the plans, but who would think?? Also, all my framing is as tight as a drum. So sweet you hate to cover it. I don't think the inspector had ever seen anything like it down there. He had to ding me on something.
I maintain that the greatest economy of use of space in design, and use of material, and use of labor is found in New England. We have been perfecting for like 400 years.
Also, I see your a fellow member of the nation.
Sounds like a pretty hard "ding" to me.... I'm assuming they were non-loadbearing... I think I might of challenged him - depending on how many walls we were talking about... My approach is something - "just a second" - run to my truck for my code book - come back and say - "here, show me the paragraph so I can learn"...
The fact is though that here in NC anyway, any enforcement jurisdiction can add their own rules - which is OK with me, but what burns me is that they are not required to publish their changes.
We don't strap here and I also work in Cape Cod and did strap. We use double top plates and the same size studs here and have everything nice and tight also. The way we do it and the way you do it the end results come out the same they both come out nice just a different way of doing things. One way is not a better quality job or perfect job. They just get done a different way with the same quality rersults.Joe Carola
i lived in phoenix in the early eighties also, the diffrence of work between northeast and phoenix quality and ethics and knowledge is comparing a rolex to a a sun dial. i sure things have been somewhat changed with the sea of humanity that have moved out there . but i have family out there now (real estate)and there still in dyer need of some northeast know how..." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
I have framed a few houses your way it worked very well braced the walls before trusses and nothing in the way it was great but i find if it is a rafter roof we can use the walls for scaffold ...but i really liked framing interior walls after the roof or second floor was on ..and after strapping
i use 2" styrofoam on the interior of exterior walls so they never tie into the out side wall whoops what did i start now lol
whats the purpose of 1x strapping ?, here in the west, the sheetrock is fastened right to the bottom of the joists or rafters.
From what I hear Drywall shims are illegal east of the Mississippi, So if you want it Flat you better strap!
No offense travis, but this topic has been gone over about a million times here so I'll link you to the most recent thread on it from about two weeks ago....
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=68365.1View Image
I learned to frame in New England and that's the system I use to this day , twenty years later . I have to admit it is different to system's used where I live now -the midwest ( which is a topic on it's own right) . I believe the strapping tech. makes for a much stronger build . It does burn some wood , but I think it's worth it and if you know how to set it up it goes fast . When I get to laying out interior walls I snap lines on deck , plumb up to strap , snap lines and get it up and on the line and done . Def. only one plate though . I do remodels and builds now and we do finish as much as we can get . Haven't encountered any problems with trim installs . Just my opinion . By the way I am new to site -think it's great -and felt comfortable throwing in my two cents .
Just because something is "standard" practice doesn't always mean its the right way to do it.
I've always double top plated interior walls and built them before putting the roof on(out of habit and for no other reason) but I'm going to start doing it like one person suggested, 2x studs, 24"o.c., single top plate(both interior and exterior walls) and stack trusses/rafters on top of studs. Think about the material but most importantly the labor saved. All it takes is a little forethought and planning. If there is crown molding or any other need for nailing just add blocking where necessary. Again something that requires a little forethought and planning, something that is sorely missing in much of the home building industry.
Didn't anyone read the article "The Future of Framing is Here" by Joseph Lstiburek in FHB #174?
Edited 2/4/2006 10:57 am ET by dogfish
Before you start building exterior (load bearing) walls 24" OC you better check your code requirements carefully.
Have you checked them?
Yes, but not lately - and although I have never seen it done, I believe that 2x4 24" OC studs on load bearing walls are allowed only for 1 story houses and provided that the framing is stacked. Other than that, you have to go to 2x6 studs for 24" centers. What does your book say? (I see that you too are in NC)
Double top plates are the result of building walls first and the need to tie them together until you get the cieling/floor/roof framed.
the same can be accomplished with metal plates but there are more reasons not too than there are too do it.
if you leave out your non-bearing walls for whatever reason then you frme them afterward and if the you put down underlayment and stra your cielings you don't need a second plate.
and a second plate is NOT a license to not layout your joists or rafters over bearing studs.
Sure a double top plate helps with crown nailing, but more homes have baseboard than do crown
both sides of this debate can be argued ad nauseum...
but the discussion won't be complete until rjw and sancho choose their sides!!!
Mr. T.
There's a steering-wheel in me pants and it's driving me nuts!!!
Centex uses single top plates on interior non-loadbearing partitions. But they have the $ clout to get interior studs made to their own specs. Also, I believe all their frames are panelized in factories.
"...their frames are panelized in factories."
Most of the truss plants I've worked at have made wall panels. With the component saws they have, cutting a large number of studs to any length they want is pretty easy.
I've seen the single top plate thing tried once or twice on wall panel jobs. But the customers never liked it.
The double top plate sure makes it easier to put drywall up and hit some wood with the screws up near the top.
Wake me up when things get interesting
Right - I don't like the single top plate idea at all but didn't want to put too much of a negative spin on my post... I guess it works for super high production outfits. Truss salesmen have tried to sell me panalized walls - but I never could make $ence out of it.
Around here if the drywalls screw into the double top plate they don't know about truss uplift and we have to tell them to pull out the screws at the top plates
"Around here if the drywalls screw into the double top plate they don't know about truss uplift and we have to tell them to pull out the screws at the top plates"
Hell of a run-on scentence you got there.
There's nothing wrong with screwing drywall to the top plates. Check out the Truss uplift thread for more info.
Women over 50 don't have babies because they would put them down and forget where they left them.
well iknow around here it get's down to minus 35 degrees celcius.or colder so it is recomended to screw drywall 18"on the ceiling away from interior walls and 16"down on the interior walls and never into the double top plate i will find the specs on here and send them to ya
Dustin,
We use the same size precuts for the whole house and all double top plates. If your 8' precuts are 92-5/8" and for some reason you decide to use a single top plate then they should make 94-1/8" studs for that. I can't see any reason why you would go with single top plate if they don't make the 94-1/8" studs. If they don't make the 94-1/8" studs it makes no sense to use a single top plate because you would have to cut every stud and waste all that time for no reason.
Use the same size studs for the whole house with double top plates and keep it all the same.
"My brother (known to be a jerk on occasion) gave me grief about it saying that "nobody I have ever seen" double plates interior walls. He tells me I should have decked the second floor, then built the walls and wedged them into place. So what is the consensus of the building community at large?"
Just wanted to add that your brother has no idea what he's talking about. People use double top plates every day. To tell you to wedge them into place has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of before. Due yourself a favor and don't listen to a word he says or he'll cost you a ton of money to have your house built.
Joe Carola
Edited 2/4/2006 9:41 am ET by Framer
joe , you're forgetting how you were trained down the cape... bet they didn't use pre-cuts and i bet they didn't double top plate partitions
they're probably using pre-cuts by now, but they're still strapping their ceilingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"joe , you're forgetting how you were trained down the cape... bet they didn't use pre-cuts and i bet they didn't double top plate partitions"Mike,I didn't forget how I framed in the Cape. We did use precuts and they were 88". We also used double top plates too. When I framed there we always framed all the walls first and then went back and strapped every ceiling.The only job we ever went back and put the walls in was when we framed these Town Houses that were 30' x 30' with roof trusses. We framed the four outside walls and the center partition and then set the trusses and then went back and framed the walls and then we strapped.Joe Carola
see, joe... just when i think i know what i'm talking about... i open my mouth and prove otherwise
88 + 4 5/8 = 92 5/8 " so your ceilings were to the 7'6" minimum.... a hold over from the energy concious '70's
remember i told you this was the first new home we'd built since '90 ? well, it's also the first project we've done with pre-cuts since we're always trying to match existing..
sure does cut down on time & waste
me... i just stole brian's tip about continuing with the single plate and shiming with the piece of furring... you guys keep 'em comming , this old dog needs at least one new trick a day just to stay even
View Image
here's one i stole from you two weeks ago
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/5/2006 7:46 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike,It is a big difference framing a new home compared to additions especially with precuts. Are you using 8', 9' or 10' precuts?I thought you would at least write high Joe on that ridge..........;-)Joe Carola
the standard pre-cut around here is 92 5/8" + 4 5/8 for the shoe & dbl top plate gives a rough ht. of 96 5/4 "
the strapping & 1/2" blueboard ceiling = 5/4 so the rough finished ht. winds up at 8' less any finish flooring
you're right.. what would it have taken to use a little of my precious red crayon to say " hi, joe !" ?????Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"the standard pre-cut around here is 92 5/8" Mike,Is a 9' or 10' precut a special order?Joe Carola
i would think so.. i'll check my lumber price list.. if it's not on there, then it's special orderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Joe, here in MA the two most popular pre-cuts are 92 5/8 and 104 5/8. We also can get 88" precuts without special ordering, but you usually see them on the lower budget projects. 10' precuts I have yet to see. We usually just get 10' studs and cut them to 116 5/8". Is that what size 10' precuts come in at? I usually cut any nominal wall size on the plans to frame out to 1 1/8" over the height noted on the plans just like 8' and 9' precuts give you.
The one I really don't understand the logic behind is the 88" precuts.View Image
that's because yur a young dude.. when we had the gas lines in the mid-'70's energy conservation became a driving force in house design..
two things that stood out were taking the windows out of the north wall and dropping the ceiling ht. to 7'-6" ... both of those are still lingering in the minds of purists, but most just go for super insulation and better windows
or , ignore energy conservation as much as they canMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"The one I really don't understand the logic behind is the 88" precuts."Brian,When I framed in the Cape it was back 1984 and was shocked to see the precuts at 88" and the door heights were 6'6" and the precuts in NJ were 92-5/8". All the floor joists were 2x8's with all girders no more than 12'. I framed a few house in Plymouth also. I'll never forget the first house in Plymouth we framed because my boss gave me the set of plans but they were in reverse and he told me to be very careful and lay out opposite of what the plans were. I was only 20 at the time and he left me with four guys that didn't know what they were doing and some how I laid the stairwell according to the plans but I wasn't supposed to and they were on the opposite side of the house and wee already had the decking down by the time I caught it.I guess they still sell 88" for doing remodeling and additions on the old houses that were framed with the 88" precuts.Joe Carola
Edited 2/5/2006 11:17 am ET by Framer
Joe:
I've never seen a house with 7'6" ceilings except maybe some 100 yr shack of a country house, nor have I ever seen these 88" studs... Don't think I'd like the "feel" of the house at all...
Re 92-5/8" studs they don't sell those here in NC that I know of. All we get are 93". As you know the 92-5/8" make a lot more sense as the sheetrock fits the walls better and if you have really skinny base it applies to the wall better. I'd use them if they were available... For 9' walls, we used to only get 105" but now 104 5/8" are readily available. Strange that the 9' studs got updated first since I think more 8' studs are used. Many/most new construction houses here have min 9' first floor, 8' second but there are still the super low end with 8' everywhere. I figure that the 92-5/8" will be available soon...
Matt,This addition I just framed was three stories and the second floor was 7'6" and the third floor left side outside walls were 5'9" high with a cathedral 4/12 shed roof and the right side 8/12 gable additon with outside walls were 6'3" high and ceiling height at 8'1-1/4" (8' precuts) height. Joe Carola
Pardon my ignorance but what is this strapping you all are talking about?
Here in Ohio if Im building a custom home we double top plate all interior walls, but we actually tie them together and to the exterior walls as well. When laying out the exterior wall I mark wheree my partition intersects then cut a dbl top plate to but into the layout, then leave 3 1/2" space and continue with dbl tp. The we frame and stand all interiors with a single top plate. Then before straightening walls we dbl top plate interiors overlapping eachother as well as tying into exteriors. Its seems like alot of extra work but it helps keep walls nice and tight with no gaps between the top plates from stiffs who butcher the ends trying to tie tp's together.
If Im building a shoebox(small easy square house) with all an all trussed roof it would depend heavily on how long the span of the trusses is and how high the rise is if or if not I would build the interiors. If I could get away with 2 guys on each end and 1 in the middle on a ladder for hte first couple then have him walk down the middle of the trusses safely I wouold definately wait and build the interiors after. But if the span was long and I didnt feel comfortable with someone walking the middle I would build my interiors to give them somehting to walk on.
First floor on a box I would definately build interiors after. Put my nailers up first, build wall on ground with dbl tp, stand and plumb, sledge if necessary. That method is goood for winter framing as we leave the tyvek over the windows to cut the wind, makes for somewhat better conditions.
Later
Matt
Matt,Why don't you nail your double top plate together first with all the necessary laps and then raise them and lift the laps over the outside walls and drop them into place instead of going back later and adding the second top plate?Unless your facenailing the bottom of the shoe to the bottom of the studs. Then that must be the reason why your nailing the second top plate on later. Are you facenailing your studs or toenailing your studs?Joe Carola
Joe,
Good catch, on most of them we do nail them before we stand 'em. When cutting the plates I will also cut the dbl tp too and label it with whatever wall it goes with. Its just sometimes easier with walls on different angles, 22.5, 45, 60 to put the dbl tp on after thy're tied together. Its kind of like an on site panel building shop, as long as the wall is labeled correctly I can have anyone build them anywhere, stck em up and move them into place. I like to have 2 guys building interiors in the garage while we put up the exteriors. That way we get a lil ahed of the game. By the way we run our sheets verticle.
Some custom builders do some out of the norm(i think they're cool) designs in their homes. For instance, a couple months ago I hung the stair landing leading to the second flr from the 2nd floor ceiing with a 2" steel rod. A couple big ol nuts and washers and we were good. Kinda strange but it was nice and open below.
Matt
Matt and Matt,I run shoes and double top p;late for every single wall in the whole house load bearing and non load bearing and raise with all interior walls lapping over all exterior walls and also any angled wall the same thing.Her's a couple pictures of what they look like before we raise them.Joe Carola
Joe:
I think we are all 3 talking about the same result with the exception of one thing: Did I understand correctly that you toe nail all studs in place? - no stud-plate connections are face nailed?
"Did I understand correctly that you toe nail all studs in place? - no stud-plate connections are face nailed?"Matt,I toenail every single stud to the top plate even the last stud at the lap joint that is the nailer for the perpendicular walls. Once every stud for that wall is nailed we lift the wall up lifting one end up a little higher on an angle so that the lap clears the wall and raise the wall until that lap is on the top plate. We then lift the other side until it's on the top plate and then just drop them into the lap and walk away to the next wall because the laps hold them in place.Where the top plate is set back 3-1/2" for a 2x4 wall or 5-1/2" for a 2x6 wall to accept the lap from the next wall I might throw one face nail to hold it in place and then I finish off with toenailing it because that one face nail is only an 8 penny.I use 8d nails for toenailing studs and 8d ring for decking and sheathing and the rest of the house is all nailed with 10d. Never use anything bigger then a 10d for anything.Joe Carola
i'm more familiar with your technique, it interests me where the genesis of all these diffrent techniques come from. i'm sure 50% comes from building inspection regulations. but massachusetts, to the tri-state area , then you have californian techniques. it's has to be a combo of the inspections , production techniques, changes to fit each crews. any thoughts ??.." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
Holy crap Joe!!
That's how i learned to frame almost thirty years ago!!
I can't believe anyone still does it this way.
Nice work, lot's of toenails.
Ya ain't a carp till ya know how to toenail.
Thanks for the pics.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Lots of good info and insight here, thanks again everyone. I think I did the right thing.
Dustin
Man that framing looks nice.However, being in a northern climate, I always size headers to their span. Details (full of insulation) make a difference.Maybe this has been gone over before, but what rationale do you have in not sheathing before you erect your frame?Specially when the ditch yawns so wide around the foundation, as in your pictures.Not to mention the second story which it appears would require a Hiab or some kind of lift to sheath efficiently.With all respect, Alan
I was going to ask the same, always try to sheet walls before standing up. We also would never start a frame without the foundation being backfilled, thats just not right!
"We also would never start a frame without the foundation being backfilled, thats just not right!"I've work on many foundations that weren't backfilled before especially in the winter. Sometimes you have no choice and problems happen as we all know. It was supposed to be backfilled before I started but that was a styrofoam foundation and they weren't ready. I got paid extra to work that way or I sat home and did nothing.Joe Carola
I also start framing on a regular basis without foudation being backfilled or flatwork being done if I waited for everyone else to do their job I'd probably starve to death.
yes.. and i woudn't have even started framing yet on that cape...
pretty lofty company you promoted me to... caroloa, uhler, dieselpig..... damn, man...
we ain't no framers... those guys would blow thru this cape so fast..us.. we're just half-fastMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Faster isn't always better. Maybe in their case it is. The end result is what counts.
We have an OSHA office in the county I have been working in for the past 7 years. Falls are the # one cause of accidents. They patrol looking for anybody working around open foundations. I have gone 3 years without a fine. I can assure you that if we were to turn crews on foundations, 1) I doubt they would start or 2) I have just lowerer the standard of the job site safety.
The 2nd day into land work for the job I am on, OSHA was out doing open trench inspections. They love to enforce their wrath on the larger job sites, but its still no reason to offer any worker an unsafe work site!
Alan,
In Framer's part of the country they have sheathing crews that only do sheathing. So he can sub it out to a sheathing crew and they deal with it. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.View Image
Alanj,Thanks for the compliment. We toenail all out studs meaning that we nail the shoe down first and toenail our studs to the two top plates and then lift the walls on the shoe and toenail them to the sho. We have sheathing crews that do this every day come in and sheath our houses and additions.There's a lot of discussions about this if you want to do a search.Joe Carola
This name thing might get a bit confusing... :-)
>> what is this strapping you all are talking about? <<
Furring strips on the ceilings. 1x4s or 1x3s I think... It helps with flatter ceilings, although generally, personally I don't see a problem with our non-strapped ceilings here in NC.
We do as you do and double top plate everything building all first floor walls, then add second floor system, etc. The guys I use do apply some of the double top plates before raising the walls, but some you kind of have to apply later. Typically they don't nail the laps until they go through and plumb everything up which is just before you start the floor or roof system above. I too like the idea of having the interior non-load bearing walls all tied into the load bearing walls via the laps to give the building additional lateral stability although maybe it's not necessary.
I can see how in inclement weather it would be a major advantage to leave the interior non-loadbearing walls for later so you can get the "paper" on the roof ASAP.
8 and 9 foot precuts make sense because sheetrock comes in widths of 48 and 54 inches. There is enough volume of 9/0 ceilings to make things work, economically.
If 10/0 ceilings got big enough for USG to make 60 inch rock, I'll bet that the mills would be turning out studs at 116 5/8".
They do make 10' precuts at 116-5/8". I use them on several houses already. This house is one of them that I framed this past summer and they were 2x6 10' precuts.Joe Carola
What're those gold-plated headers I'm seeing?
"What're those gold-plated headers I'm seeing?"No, just yellow microlams.Joe Carola
dustin , we only double plate interior walls if they are bearing walls.. BUT..
before we run any interior partitions , other than bearing walls, we strap our ceilings.. so the pre-cut studs no longer work..
we single plate all the interior walls which get nailed to the furred ceiling..
if you are not strapping your ceiling, then it is usually cheaper & faster , and puts more meat at the ceiling line ( for crown as you said ) to continue with the pre-cut studs and double plate..
but if there are no pre-cut studs involved , and no bearing wall, then i would not double plate
Dustin
Here in Connecticut, I frame with double top plates inside and out.I normally get one size stud, which necessitates using the double top plates.
Back in the day when precuts were just becoming popular, we still worked for builders who made us cut all our studs.For this builder, we single plated all non load bearing walls, an 2 x 3 walls where ever we could.This builders homes were always in demand, and he has the one of the finest reputations in our area.
Regional differences aside, I'd rather frame all walls with double top plates and tie all corners.I'd rather frame all the walls first, easier to make sure they are straight.
Over the years, we have framed many different ways,bottom line, they are all still standing.Just as in life, many ways to do the same thing.
Greg in Connecticut
don't know where your brother learned to frame but he can't work for me. Base plate top plate tie in plate. I do my layout cut the base and top plates place on layout lines nail together with 2 inch follow with tie in plate nailen on top. Mark out all studs, cripples, jacks, doors, windows,bearing points etc. then you can locate any flush beams and cut plate pockets to accomodate. After layout the floor or roof above and snap lines across. Stack interior walls in the center build exteriors followed by interiors, straighten and voilla your ready for what comes above. No walking the walls doing lay out. With no tie in plate straightening is a royal pain in the glutious maximus.