OK…I’ll be the first to admit, I am not a framer! 90% of the work I do are with interior renovations. When I need to frame out a partition wall or a new window, my choice of lumber is not a critical issue. I normally buy kiln dried doug fir 2x stock for all of my work. I know that it tends to spit a little easier than green or wet lumber, but most of my work is with a framing gun so it works out just fine.
Now, I am planning on doing a 1200+ sq foot addtion to my own home. I am in the process of pricing out my lumber list. I have talked with a few fellow tradesmen here on the island that do much more framing and structural work than I do. I hear a different story from each. Some say to use hemp fir, some say to use doug fir. Some say use KD, others say use green. Each has an argument on why they choose what they do. There are issues of cost (hemp is less by 1/3 than doug fir), ease of nailing (green easier than KD) and strength (doug fir is stronger than hemp). In my blueprints, the architect only once specified doug fir or better as we were spanning a large floor area in the living room. Other than than, she did not spec out lumber.
I would greatly appreciate any and all input you may have on this subject. I want to get my quoting lined up by the end of this coming week so anything you guys (and ladies) can say on this subject would be great.
Brian….Bayview Renovation
Replies
Please use/discuss HEM fir: hemlock...not hemp fir which is probably illegal still...:-D
"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
As already implied, there is no such animal ( or vegetable) as hemp fir. There is a classification of frameing lumber known as hem/fir which can include trees from several related species, including hemlock and fir. Hemp is best saved for ropes and entertainment.
Anyway, IMO, hem/fir is unsuitable for floor joists, especially long spans. It is OK for studs but does split and twist more than fir.
I would not use green lumber except to build a camp or garage or unless the house would be left standing for a year before insulating and finishing with SR. Otherwise, you will be your own next customer as a renovation project, refinishing to fix all the nail pops and open casing joints, etc that come about as the wood shrinks in curing in place.
I'll betcha that your bids for KD doug fir are the highest ofthe four choices you mentioned and the green hem/fir is lowest.
There is a reason for that.
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Just an observation: Here in the PNW where a good portion of Doug Fir framing lumber is manufactured, it is quite rare to find KD. Most of the KD is shipped back east.
The cost to kiln dry can run from $70 to $150 per MBF so it's been my suspicion that doug fir is dried to reduce shipping costs. Even with dehumidification kilns, it's a pretty energy intensive process, and with fewer and fewer mills with hog fuel boilers, the primary heat sources are bunker C, fuel oil or natural gas.
To be honest, using green Doug Fir isn't much of a liability...I'm used to it and most times prefer it (except for the weight). But sheetrock is put up with your favorite screws, using nails to initially place it, so nail pops really aren't an issue.
Most times, by the time we're rocking a house, the moisture content of the framing is below 18 % so size and dimensional stability has kind of resolved itself.
It can be a bit more of an issue on a small remodel when matching old, dry wood and new, but the shrinkage is pretty predictable. A typical 2X6 stud might measure as much as 5 5/8" wide when "pond-dry green' but if it's matched up to old wood to split the difference, the 1/16" per edge disappears either with time or with a competent skim coat by the DW finisher. With plaster it matters even less.
Even the trusses out here are of S4S green DF.
As a side note, and as a sometimes timber framer, I find it ironic that some of the guys who resurrected timber framing in the 60's and 70's, initially extolled it's virtues as a hands-on back-to-our-roots form of craftsmanship, then became quite successful and evolved into selling frames of KD oak that turned out like fine furniture but had an inherent energy cost greater than the value of the wood.
I knew you guys in the PNW use more green lumber, but still can't get iover it. I see a quarter inch shrinkage in 2x10 SPF floor joists KD as it is and have to account for it. A half inch is more than I can deal with or care to.Screws can cause pops too. Do your SR guys use more glue there maybe?I just saw this situation while inspecting a house the other day. The cabs sit on the floor which had floor joists that shrunk. the pilaster wall has support direct to foundation and didn't move. The crown is attached to each, respectively. See how the crown has ben pulled away from it's joint?
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I guess steel is in our future, huh?
I do use I-joists for floor systems, which helps.
The young timber that is going into framing lumber has a pretty low ring count per inch.
The wide planks can be problematic, though, when I do use solid wood joists, I try to buy unit quantities from one of the few old-growth mills left. Most of the framing lumber comes out of the heart and is pretty stable for the most part green or dry.
And there are better quality caulkings available in this day and age. :-)
Piffin,
I liver in the PNW and have NEVER used green lumber. We just recently switched back to hemfir 92 5/8" studs from kiln dried doug fir because of the price. So far the quality has been good, a reason we switched in the first place.
I have ordered 26' doug fir 2x10 KD that was so straight, then a guy (doensn't work here any more) drove over a couple of them with the forklift. I was not happy.
I've heard we can get 2x12 26' KD without too much problem and a few years ago our lumber salesman said he heard of a guy locally that had ordered 2x12 28' KD. I'm not sure how much that would cost. If I needed that length for rafters, I'd use I-joists.
If we ever get to do anything with bigger timbers, this is the place I'd like to deal with. http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/
normally, I'd go to Ijoists too. But I know I can get the longer lengths even here. my yard has their own mill too, and they bring in loads of greem rough 12x12 doug fir or so and can cut anything I want up to forty feet long. I use it mostly for sill beam replacements when needed
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we just love that hemp fir.
Oh yeah? What do you use hemp fir?
I use hemp to tie one on
so it doesn't fall off the truck
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Had to read it a couple times to get it. Good un!
"Hemp fir". You can't make this stuff up, honestly.
Here in North Joisey I can't find KD 2x10s to save my life, and have to drive almost to Philadelphia to get KD 2x6s (Hem Fir only). Basically KD only available in 2x4s. I've seen pretty dramatic shrinkage in 2x10s as they dried.