I plan on using cpvc for a hot water loop. Are there any faults or a downside to this product? Water taste? Anything?
Edited 2/7/2008 1:18 pm ET by popawheelie
Discussion Forum
Edited 2/7/2008 1:18 pm ET by popawheelie
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The Big Beautiful Bill could do away with much of the Inflation Reduction Act, including the 25C, 25D and 45L tax credits.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
My understanding is that it is less durable than copper or PEX, with a shorter projected lifespan.
All of the plumbing in the old chicken barn was PVC. After 15-20 years, it became quite brittle. But a tube is an inherently strong shape. I'd think you'd certainly be fine - unless your pipes freeze, or you accidentally hit an exposed pipe, hard.
I've sometimes wondered why it isn't used more often, myself. One application I've thought of is loops for body sprays in showers. Those things are mostly just fittings, which makes them time-consuming to solder together. And being behind a control valve, an (unlikely) failure (after 20 years' time) wouldn't automatically mean a flood.
Personally, I might feel funny having hundreds of feet of the stuff run throughout my house, but only after a couple decades.
Edited 2/7/2008 1:40 am ET by Biff_Loman
After several years, all you have to do is bump against it to start a leak or worse.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I wonder if there's an environmental difference that affects the CPVC. I've worked around a lot of old stuff, ~20 years old and haven't experienced any of the nightmares that I read about. Maybe I'm just lucky?
Not sure about the environmental part but I have been told that there have been some manufacturing issues. Incorrect blend of materials, when inspector calls them on it they just remelt and extrude. May be some kind of urban legend, told to me by my hardware guy as told by a plumbing rep.
I just replaced water heater at our church, IIRC I put it in about 8yrs ago. Had two different brands, Lewis pipe and the "Flowguard Gold". When cut with the racheting pipe cutter ( not top of the line but sharp) both broke and did not cut clean. I am seeing more of it brittle after use. Usually the hot side. However I have not seen failures.
If the heirs have to replumb this house it will be fun, at least in the basement area that has ceiling.
Does anyone know what the actual difference is between cpvc and pvc? I think I remember that the first c is something like "chlorinated", and that cpvc is used for water supply lines, while pvc cannot. Is it somehow related to being under pressure?
...that the first c is something like "chlorinated"... correct
... cpvc is used for water supply lines, while pvc cannot.... true in my locale.
..... Is it somehow related to being under pressure?... I believe it is because CPVC will carry hot water. In other words, I think it is the heat not the pressure.
Been wrong before -- I like copper........
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but hot water goes down the drain line in the shower or sink, which can be pvc. So what's the difference?I agree, I like copper. More to the point in my house, I don't like to mix things if I can avoid it. If I built a new house, I'd do PEX in a heartbeat. But I don't like that rigid plastic stuff. I'm afraid of the brittleness.
Here they use pvc to bring water to and into the house. After that cpvc, copper, or pex. The difference in your hot water in the drain is pressure.
", but hot water goes down the drain line in the shower or sink, which can be pvc. So what's the difference?"Tempature and pressure. The water going down the drain is not at near as hot as that coming out of the WH.But the big difference is pressure. The supply lines are under 40-80 PSI 24x7. The drains are only under the pressure of gravity and then only for minutes at a time..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>> hot water goes down the drain line in the shower or sink, which can be pvc. So what's the difference?<<
Hot water in drain lines is not pressurized.
I suppose, technically, sometimes in use or a clog situation a drain could be under pressure due to the "head pressure" of the water column - but not likely to be under the 30-50psi of a supply line, and even then not for a long (years) period of time.
Being my usual "clear as mud" in my first post - I believe it is the combination of heat and pressure which causes problems.
Jim
Edit: several beat me to this reply - I should read it all before posting!
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 2/8/2008 12:00 pm ET by JTC1
Chlorinated Polyvinyl Chloride (CPVC) Here my plumber has been using it for years with no problem. Easier than copper, less expensive and often works better then the variants of Pex. When I moved a laundry room in my own house I asked him which he would use for the job out of all three. CPVC was the answer.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Man, lot of opinions, almost like wormdrive vs sidewinders.
Really boils down to personal experience & preference.
IMO, the bad thing about cpvc are the transition fittings, seems to be hard to thread them to other materials so they dont leak, I prefer to use female cpvc transitions when possible because of the rubber washer in them
Maybe it is the local water here but I have been rather shocked at the condition of some of those washers and o-rings upon disassembly after being in for a few years. Either dried up or very soft and gooey.
Cpvc all we ever use around here because the well water eats the copper. Never ran into a problem when remodeling and removing cpvc pipes or adding new to old. Is this a common occurance (where you bump it and have a problem) or was/is it the brand of pipe?
what are you cutting the cpvc with? All I use are the hand cutters for PVC and don't bother with a saw. wondering if the type of cutting is a difference?
So common that the plimbers refuse to touch cpvc here unl;ess you are ready to replace the whole system
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I find that interesting. I don't think you can find a plumber around here that uses copper unless the HO specs it, which is rare. I use the hand held cutter, as does my plumber, and only occassionly have a piece crack. Sometimes in old work I'll use a small hand saw for ease of cutting. Flowguard Gold is the only brand used. I wonder if that makes a difference? The only problem I've ever run into with cpvc is that you have to give any joint a twist when you glue them so that it doesn't leak. That can be a pain when you put the last piece together.
forget copper. All going to Hypex now
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What is hypex? Google didn't help. I suspect it's a brand name of Pex? Pex hasn't really caught on here. I have the crimping tools and have done some work with it but still perfer cpvc.
PEX for potable water
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Check your local codes. cpvc is not allowed here.
Bear
popawheelie,
Well My house was plumbed completely in CPVC when I bought it over two 1/2 decades ago.. My best estimate was that it had been in place for over a decade when I bought it.. As I tore it down I saved all of the CPVC I could and have reused it where ever I can. While I've had to buy a few couplings & lengths of tubing other than a can or two of cleaner and glue I have next to nothing in my plumbing costs..
Yes some pieces got brittle.. (a tiny few) but they were far from failing and even if they had it would have been extremely simple to cut them out and replace them..
I started to replace everything with copper but stopped when they discovered that the lead in the water from solder was affecting our health. Those pipes while they had less than a decade of use showed an astonishing amount of internal wear. which was the main reason I did all my plumbing back in CPVC. This was before copper prices got so insanely high..
No I don't notice any taste but I carefully run a lot of water through the pipes to wash out any solvent or glue.
PS you really shouldn't be tasting hot water <grin>
Oh and your best tool for cutting CPVC? your power mitre saw.. use a regular blade and just cut it like it's a piece of wood.. Zing! nice clean straight cut which couplings and fitting's love.. I take a small pocket knife and scrape off any burs etc/ left .
To access old pipe a sawzall works but it's pretty hard to cut perfectly square and straight.. you can roll a sheet of paper around the pipe and match up the edge of the paper that way you have a perfectly square edge to draw a line with a magic. . marker.
Edited 2/7/2008 12:55 pm ET by frenchy
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but there almost always seems to be two sides to this stuff. From my gut feeling the cpvc is a lesser product than others. But where's the science to back that up? Anyway, thanks for the input.
As copper prices go up there is going to be more of this in the future I think. Maybe pex is the answer.
I think my dislike of CPVC is rooted in repair.
Understand that my ideal plumbing layout has the fewest possible joints.
Let's say you run your hot water loop in CPVC. You pressurize the system and come to find out that you have a leak at a fitting - just say it is a 90 - two glue joints - one leaks.
You will now have to cut back the pipe to install a new fitting and install at least 2 fittings and a pipe stub - you have now gone from 2 glue joints to at least 4 and possibly 6 glue joints (if 2 stubs).
In copper the leak could be repaired by unsweating the one fitting (2 joints), cleaning the pipe ends and sweating in a new fitting.
Best case would be to reuse the original fitting.
Final repair still has 2 joints.
Just my bias.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I like CPVC. I'm not a plumber, but am around plumbing work all the time. I've never heard a local plumber with issues about CPVC, other than the need for a little more protection than copper in exposed locations.
We use CPVC on all of our projects and I'm using it on my personal house right now.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Copper naturally adds some sterilization...
that alone makes it worthwhile.
The "profit" is in the longevity.
IMO
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
The reason I brought it up was to hash out the pros and cons. I agree with you about the economics of doing something right so you don't have problems or short comings in the system. But also the longevity of the system. I really enjoy coming across something someone built long ago that was thopught out and built for the long haul.
If there's anything I've learned from this forum it is that doing something right is really always the best way to go.
What do you mean by copper adding some sterilization? Tell me more!
Edited 2/9/2008 8:13 pm ET by popawheelie
http://www.copper.org/resources/discover/2007/fall/homepage.htmlLiberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
What's CPVP is it that black kinda bendableinsh pvc
Ductape can fix EVERYTHING!!!
Edited 2/10/2008 2:28 am ET by andyfew322
andy,
No that is polyethylene . The white rigid is usually PVC (polyvinyl chloride)
CPVC is a tan color (at least the stuff I buy)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The colors are just additives.
PVC = poly vinyl chloride
CPVC = chlorinated poly vinyl chloride
That orange pipe for fire protection systems is cpvc also.
I have hot air welding rods for pvc, abs, cpvc, & pe in a large variety of colors
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Edited 2/10/2008 3:52 am ET by plumbbill
Interesting, I was unaware of that. Should have known if I had thought about it because I have seen you mention the orange fire pipe and have even seen it on a few jobs. No hot air welding rods in yellow to repair the front handle on a Dewalt worm drive though huh? Durn.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
For completeness I will through in PVC conduit.It is gray, but the same size as waterlines. It has UV inhibitors and can be used exposed to the sun, while PVC water pipes should not be exposed to sun..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
sch 80 pvc for water pipe is gray too, not trying to add a "gray" area ;-)
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
IIRC sch 80 is a dark gray, while sch 40 conduit is a light gray.Don't know what sch 80 conduit looks like..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
pvc coated emt is dark gray.
Leave sch 80 out in the sun & it lightens right up ;-)
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
The black drain pipe, if that is what you are referring too, is ABS.All Black Stuff.
Lots of interesting posts.
Forget about installation and reliability.
I would never use a product like CPVC to carry my drinking water. It has been shown in numerous studies to leach toxic chemicals when used, and dioxin when burned.
PEX leaches a different set of nasty chemicals, MTBE and Benzene.
Solder for copper plumbing has not contained lead for a long time now.
Of course the debate rages on about what levels of all this stuff are dangerous, but for my money, why take the chance?
Additionally, PEX and CPVC are not readily recyclable like copper.
Lifted this from that site.
So much for running out of copper resources (at least from the industries press releases)
""We're in no danger of running out of copper. Known worldwide resources of this important and valuable metal are estimated at nearly 5.8 trillion pounds of which only about 0.7 trillion (12%) have been mined throughout history.
Nearly all of that 0.7 trillion (or 700 billion) pounds is still in circulation because copper's recycpng rate is higher than that of any other engineering metal.
Until well into the 1800s, most copper used in the U.S.A. had to be imported. Today, we are virtually self-sufficient and, worldwide, second only to Chile in production.
Each year in the U.S.A., nearly as much copper is recovered from recycled material as is derived from newly mined ore. Excluding wire production, most of which uses newly refined copper, more than three-fourths of the amount used by copper and brass mills, ingot makers, foundries, powder plants and other industries comes from recycled scrap.
Almost half of all recycled copper scrap is old post-consumer scrap, such as discarded electric cable, junked automobile radiators and air conditioners, or even ancient Egyptian plumbing. (Yes, it's been around that long.)
The remainder is new scrap, such as chips and turnings from screw machine production.""