For better than this past year, I have been considering downsizing the bizznezz. Not the size, but rather the scope. Size isn`t a concern as its only myself and a few semiregulars……but even that fluctuates depending upon the workload. I`ve always intentionally kept the business small. Half the reason I started it was so that I could set my own hours.
Currently, I`d guestimate that I act as GC on 90% of my jobs. Been wanting to hang up that belt and work solely as a subcontractor for quite a bit.
I realize that with my client base, I`ll continue to receive calls for general contracting, but I think it may be time to turn the ship a bit.
Thing that got me talkin` out loud about it today was a new client….went to sign the contract yesterday and as we`re feeling one another out, he says “I don`t want any of that contractor bullsh!t…..start when you say you`re going to and continue until the job is complete”. I retorted with “I`m not a contractor, I`m a carpenter”.
Not 100% true….but that`s how I`ve always seen it.
Pros and cons…..whaddaya got?
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Replies
I don`t want any of that contractor bullsh!t
I think I'd walk away from that job! As far as subbing exclusively, yeah, if you want to be a carpenter not a contractor, then subbing is probably better for you. More time working less time with the hassles of job oversight.
57281.2 in reply to 57281.1
I don`t want any of that contractor bullsh!t
I'd run to it! Sounds like a nice easy to work with customer from here.
I don't like any of that contractor BS myself.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Walk away?
Ya kiddin`?
They love me! I did a porch rail mock up for them they were so crazy about, I could pull all the contractor BS I wanted and still come out smelling like a rose. : )
I can`t blame them.....they recently went through some major renovations with a less scrupulous contractor.
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Yeah, I remember one insurance job I did that entailed some drywall repairs. The homeowner gave me a big lecture about not dragging the job out, showing up for a few hours and then taking off, blah blah blah. So I made sure we showed up with hot mud and heat guns and the spray hopper, and did it all in one fell swoop. Anyway, come to find out, guess what line of work he was in? He was a general contractor!
I think you have to decide if you want to earn a wage, or make some real money. My old man alsways told me "your one set of hands can earn you one man's wages, your brain can earn you 100 men's wages".
Of course, like any son i didn't listen, i work alone sub'ing as carpenter.
Jay, for a couple of years now I've been working full-time as a carpentry sub, specializing in finish work. It has worked out great for me; the times I have dabbled in general contracting work I didn't enjoy it and wasn't very good at it. You won't get paid as much per hour as a sub, but the money is more steady, less wasted time on sales calls and such. If your ego needs you to be top dog it might not work for you, but keep the ego in check and the work will be steady.
Do you intend to specialize in a niche like finish work, cabinets, framing, roofs? Or act as lead carp/project mgr, or all-around journeyman? Specializing will get you more $ but you will have to look around more for it.
The GC I'm working for now is looking to hire guys who have run their own businesses and grown tired of that game. They figure guys who have played the game for a while will understand things on a different level than guys who have just been employees. Have you considered going the employee route?
Mike
Do you intend to specialize in a niche like finish work, cabinets, framing, roofs?
Yes.....finish carpentry in general, and eventually I`d really like to do nothing but custom cabinetry. Always been afraid to take that leap.....(turning down jobs that didn`t meet that criteria). Four kids and a mortgage, ya take what comes yer way.
I`ve considered (briefly) the employee route.....doubt I could work for someone again.
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Jay,
That really suprises me coming from you.
I thought you were quite well established and happy at being a contractor.
I've been going through a really rough start to the year, combined with some personal issues, I'm screaming at the top of my lungs.
I hear you about the hours thing, but to be perfectly honest with you, unless you have a legitimate need to have flexible hours, it will ultimately do you in.
Yeeeaaaarrrss ago, when I got divorced, and my kids were young, I declared to the world that they were #1 and no more Sats., and no more long days, gonna spend time with the boys.
It all went fairly well except that I forgot to adjust back to working real hours.
I'm not sure I can any more. I put in 6-7hrs with 10 minutes or so for lunch, I'm ready to go home. I'm 47, in good shape but damn it allready, I've had enough!
Funny thing is, I see 'employees', wandering around the truck, on the cell phone, long lunch reading books, start cleaning up at 3...........I'll bet I'm, no, I KNOW I'm more productive than most of them are, and some poor guy is payin them for 8 hours.
If you can find a super duper boss, you go for it, and give me a call too, I may be interested. I'm just up the street a bit.
BTW, did that basement thing work out?? You, know, the job whathisname emailed you about?
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I`m established just fine, but happy with contracting? I dunno about that. Enjoy the carpentry end....contracting, not so much.
I`ve got a good repure with several other contractors in the area.....a couple of which I job swap with. Whenever one is too busy, we hand it off to another.
Just thinkin` it`d be awful nice to leave the headaches with them......get in, get out, get paid.
I`ll email you about that basement.
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get in, get out, get paid
You got it. It's nice to develop a niche as well, like Sonny pointed out. I do design/drafting work nights and weekends instead of chasing down subs and cranking out estimates like I did when I tried the GC route. Stuff I enjoy, and low stress which I value highly.
I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble at all getting a good reputation as a trim and cabinet guy if that's what you want to do. Heck, if I can do it anyone can.
Mike
got a buddy right now in the mind set U described.
Small jobs only. Doesn't want anything over 2-3 weeks .. max.
He took a different route ... was employeed as the head lead of a design/build firm.
They went belly up and he hit the streets. Said he'd do his best not to be at the mercy of an idiot company owner any more ... spent too much of his life putting out fires ... no mistakes ever happened in the office ... that sorta thinking.
So far .. he's happy. I always say I'm happier trying to find 6 "8 week jobs" than trying to find 52 "one week" jobs ... but ... opiniona will differ.
His line of thinking is better hold of the end money. Shorter job ... less headaches.
I can see the thinking from where he comes from ... he was leading major high end remodels .... 9 months was a short project. I think he averaged $650K thru his jobs alone .... plus ... he was the company fireman. Any other lead got stuck ... go send Joe in. Probably had hands on another $150K of company money a year.
Personally, I don't think that's where the money lies. Give me a bigger higher end job. Higher end, nicer finishes ... more money. Porch repairs can only pay so much.
But ... probably more steady cash flow.
Now, I do have a question. From time to time I get to play cabinet maker and build custom's and built'ins.
How many have you done?
How many "stand alone"? As in ... not tied to a bigger project.
My reason ... I'm lucky when I can price it out and break even. I just can't make any money building custom cabinetry. Now, I do mine all on site .. so there's absolutely no production methods going on ... but when U price it fair .... just wait for their reactions!
Unless you are talking about opening a full fledge cabinet shop ... you'll never compete. And then ... I know a local cab maker or two ... you better "love the craft" ... because from what I see on the outside ... there is no money in cabinet making.
I still build most every "custom" I get the chance too ....
Makes for nice pics, ya know?
I like when I can work on something when the other subs are doing their stuff ... that way I'm there .... out of their way ... clsoe enough for questions ... and pretty much just playing for a coupla days. If I drop my rates from $50 to $25/hr ... I can say I made some money that day too!
Then again ... U can say if I could have done something else and charged that $50 ... I lost money that day. But .. I actually sell that "service" ... I've landed bigger jobs simply becuae I could make the build in's as we went. I'll just put the lower wages in the "advertising" budget.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I agree.....I`d rather line up fewer large jobs than have to worry about finding lots of little ones.....but I`m thinking, if I`ve got a half dozen GCs sending work my way, I`m not going to have to hustle quite so hard on my own.
Like Sonny said.....be a "niche guy". I don`t know too many plumbers or electricians hurting for work. If I can make my niche as critical to the local GCs, they`ll have no choice but to call me regularly. Right now, I`m in competition with them......a competition I really don`t desire. They`re looking to get bigger.....I`m looking to remain comfortable.
As for the cabinets....more "the local shop guy". Plenty of money in these parts.....most large projects consist of a designer as well as an architect. There were a few old timers about.....they`re movin` on. I`m thinking I can fill that void.
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"They`re looking to get bigger.....I`m looking to remain comfortable."And one of the necessities - even a "mandate" - of their growth, is highly dependable and good subs. By one of them and price becomes secondary for obvious reasons.
A couple of thoughts from the cheap seats. If you make the move you might be able to negotiate a small fee for referals of your GC calls that you pass to someone else that prove successful. Simple way to make a little extra income for little effort.
I believe the best way to make money is to specialize in a given area. If that were not true window, siding and roofing companies wouldn't be the largest volume remodelers. You can become more efficient and simply better at the trade or trades you choose. The issue with that is do you have the market available to do that? I don't in my area so we although we have tried to drive more toward our select niches we still do some work we would rather not. (exterior painting comes to mind from last week lol) DanT
The issue with that is do you have the market available to do that? I don't in my area so we although we have tried to drive more toward our select niches we still do some work we would rather not.
Also part of the reason I`m contemplating the change. Taking on entire projects places the responsibility for all aspects into my lap. Be nice not to have to be saddled with much of those pestering aspects of larger jobs....the ones even the subs don`t wanna touch.
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Jaybird,
As I understand it Westchester county is a lot like parts of New Jersey. Small Cabinet and woodwork shops can survive. So long as they can finish. Not sure how much a good spray booth costs.
Well the thing that really bothered me about being an employee was that it seemed like I was repeatedly getting caught in between the customer and the contractor. The customer would want to change this or that, or something done a little differently than planned, or might ask my opinion about something but the contractor wanted me to do the job the way he planned it/bid it/priced it.
Seems like way too many times I had to choose between pleasing the customer or pleasing the contractor. Sometimes I could please them both, but not always. Sure seems like subbing would be fertile ground for much the same situation - maybe worse.
As you well know, working directly for the customer allows you far more freedom (and responsibilty) to work WITH the customer, instead of FOR the contractor who claims to working with the customer but in many cases is really more corcerned with maximising profits than going the extra mile to ensure a truly satisfied customer. Maybe my experience is unique in this regard, but I doubt it.
I doubt your experience is unique...on the occasional job where I act as sub, I run into this "dilema" from time to time. While it does create an occassional bump in the road, I have been able to work through it.
I always clear everything with contractor, and usually any changes are done as work orders directly through me.....usually with a little kick back to GC.
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Over the last two years I’ve realized that to the many condo associations and their respective property management companies, I have become, not necessarily a “subcontractorâ€, but a “specialty contractor†- and YES! a “contractor†- of one.
I say a specialty contractor because while many of the above hire cheaper “tradesmen†and cheaper “contractors†for the run of the mill work to be done, they hire me for special problems. I locate the source of them, their causes, offer options, and then implement the option the Board decided upon.
Here’s the rub - “positive†rub, that is.
If I am to be used for my “special talentsâ€, then those special talents will be charged as such, and “as such†I mean as any other top notch specialist charges whether in the legal, medical or software industry.
So try to “brand†yourself as “THE person to hire in 2-3 niches. By doing so, you can enjoy the luxury of being a one man operation while also enjoying the income of a 2-3 man operation.
If I can get $125 or more (vs $35) per hour and beauticians can get $150 (vs $35) or more for a perm, and my CPA can get $125/hr (vs $75) you can become the same “specialist†in your niche(s).
Once what your brand represents to a GC and "imprinted" in their brain, you want to determine exactly what it is that each particular GC likes so much about you that has created the imprint. Then constantly assuage that "reason", which may be different for each GC. And once you determine that each GC shares maybe 2,3 or 4 reasons for that imprint, you will then have the basis from which to build a really solid foundation. One GC may casually mention that his particular customers' often visit the project and like the fact that you, as a sub, are so clean and neat looking and work so neatly. Then for that particular GC you always keep an extra pair of pants and shirt to change during lunch, and maybe even a cordless shaver to touch up a 3 o'clock shadow.
There is no detail that can be dismissed as unimportant, each individual (including each of us) have their own idiosyncrasies, pet peeves, etc.
So it depends upon your own druthers. If all you want to do is operate a chop saw and /or climb walls, fine, but if you want to do the above AND make money, then plan to make money, and maximize that income every 8 hour day.
Sonny - just wanted to say I really enjoy your posts, and learn from them. Thanks for your consistent voice here at BT.
Thanks, Huck. Just stay away from my posts on "The Tavern" otherwise you might change your mind about me.
Well, you might have a point there. But I stay out of the tavern...I'm just here for the construction talk. I especially appreciate your insights because your business model isn't so different from mine, so I feel like I can aspire to apply a lot of your insights.
Thats along the lines of what I`m thinking.
Already have one GC who calls me first whenever he gets exterior work.....decks, porches, windows, siding, etc.....he prefers lightweight, indoor work (hey, who doesn`t in the middle of January?).
Seems I`ve already created a niche with him.
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I`m curious what problems specifically you are having with contracting. What problems are causing your headaches.
I wouldn`t even use the word "problems".....problems are fixable....I don`t think its something that needs fixing....just not the track I want to be on any longer.
Specific reasons?
As I mentioned (to Jeff?)....I don`t desire the competition. Don`t know that I ever did. As do others, I feel its the business aspect of this business that can be a drag. Chasing leads...chasing payments....chasing subs.
Its almost as though I`ve been hovering in a holding pattern......I need to either get bigger....or go smaller. Bigger I definitely don`t want.
I guess I`m just looking for a simpler version.
I`m hoping you guys can come up with some pros or cons that I may be overlooking.
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"I`m hoping you guys can come up with some pros or cons that I may be overlooking."What's your retirement looking like?
Jon Blakemore
Another area to investigate is "spec remodels." If you have an area where real estate has been going up 10% or more annually, it'a a nice place to be. You work for yourself, as many hours as you want (like if one day you feel ike working a 12 hour day), and can advertise selling the house or condo before you finish it, you can do at least 2 per year.
Thats an area I`ve often contemplated.....never seriously enough though.....I`m imagining a good deal of capitol is necessary. At least initially.
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With good credit, 10% down will cover it. Then open a separate account at Home Depot for all the fixutres, cabinets, etc. and just make the monly payment until it's sold, and then pay off the account.Interest rate will be higher that for a house you live in, but for the six months or so, big deal.
They call that "Bootstrapping" 'bout these parts Sonny!
They're knocking down 600k Capes to put up 1.85 m McMansions.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Doing the same here. Razing a $100K ranch on a $650K - $750K lot and building the monster 3 story $3M - 8M houses.I'm talkiing about stuff like mine. Bought it 4 years ago at $165K and recently saw two nearly identical like mine less than a block away sold for about $285K Real estate here has consistantly increased a min. of 15% annually.In Port Royal (on the Gulf) the guy that owned Merrilat Cabinets and sold it, bought a 2.5M house, razed it and built a $17M mansion. Has a waterfall dropping from the entrance on Gordon Drive all the way (about a block) to his house - er - complex - ah - estate, or what ever the current elitist description is.I think "filty rich" pretty much describes that life style.Sh!t!! Just misread my tape and cut a piece of 5-1/4" crown short about 3". Read 136 instead of 139. Should have known better than to read the tape upside down. Don't feel like going back to HD and then priming and painting it so I glued and clamped an 8" flat piece of 1/4" plywood to the back side with another piece. Think it will pass after I plaster the seam? Or am I a butcher?
On the subject of "spec remodeling". I guess you are familiar with the current capital gains laws for income tax purposes, right? You can sell any house that has been your primary residence 2 of the past 5 years and not pay any tax on your capitol gains.
Which means, in effect, you get paid for your labor when the place sells, and your wages are tax free. Pretty simple way to build wealth for someone skilled at remodeling. There are a heck of a lot of beat up homes out there to be had.
On the subject of subbing - I'd bet you'll soon get as frustrated with that as you would with becoming an employee. At least I think I would.
You can sell any house that has been your primary residence 2 of the past 5...
If actually living in the house constitutes primary residency, that`d be awful hard on a family of six.
I`ve moved once....when it was only four of us....aint lookin` to go through that again anytime soon.
I'd bet you'll soon get as frustrated with that as you would with becoming an employee.
Thats one of the cons I`ve come up with as well. In the end though, I`m still in control of the individual projects and how to go about them.
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With good credit, 10% down will cover it. Then open a separate account at Home Depot for all the fixutres, cabinets, etc. and just make the monly payment until it's sold, and then pay off the account.
Fixer uppers round here start in the $300K range...no joke.....even perfect credit is gonna make the down payment $30K, before all the other costs associated with purchasing a home. Carrrying a $270K mortgage plus taxes (minimum of $8G/yr.), and paying subs (plumbing and electric require licensing), plus materials (even only minimal monthlys) without any money coming in aint gonna be easy.
Were I single with no dependents, I might feel a bit more comfy taking a risk like that. But I currently don`t have that kind of capitol to play with.
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You're right. That's rough. Here a home owner can pull his/her own permit. And houses cab be bought for under $200K.One guy I koknow immediately rents it out, then while the tenents are there he started remodeling, one thing aat a time to minimize the inconvenience, One bath, than the other, the the kit., etc. Sell it about 18 - 24 months later. He is a remodeler - S Corp, and set up another S-Corp the owns the properties, and hires his remodeling Corp to do the work.
Sonny - Your post caught my attention. I know you are into some of the "business" of the business. What's the benefit to the contractor of maintaining two S corps and feeding the money back and forth? The only thing that I can see is the ability to write off a little more in individual expenses - maybe retirement plan, autos...? What am I missing?
Don
Hammer, it depends upon a few things like your income, investments (and where), where excessive profits or losses are anticipated to be for any given year, and other stuff. Best to talk to your own CPA.I hooked up on it many years ago in Mich. when a customer of ours from Chicago told me about his own CPA. The customer was a printer. His CPA had him set up a separate corp that owned the land, another corp that owned the building and the 3rd corp that owned the printing business. The building was also depreciated via "systems" - Plumbing, electrical roofing, etc. Not sure if they were Cs, Ss or a combo. I hired his CPA from then on to do mine. Got one here who does similar tax structures, plus he's also into off shore corps - another tactic. My guy, admittedly does push the line, but so far I have not received a single audit. In have, the first year I used him he asked to review my previous tax returns, and lo and behold - did a revised return for one of them and get me a $4700 and change return. Got the check about 6 weeks later. That was when I said "You da man!" and was sold on him. He and several other members of his family siiblings are tax lawyers/CPAs.Talk to your CPA - a good one. Mine charges me about $145/hr and well worth it.I forgot to mentioin is that one of the important benefits is that many "expenses" are the type that can be attributed to one corp or another, so if one corp expects to have a profit, while another one is expected to have excesive losses, some of those losses can be attributed to the profitable corp to reduce or eliminate taxes on profits. All legal.
Edited 4/27/2005 1:39 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
Sonny,How do you find CPA's like those you spoke of? I would be more than willing to pay the elevated rate for a CPA that would "toe the line" for us.The problem is the contacts I have don't put me in the circles that these CPA's serivce. How did you find you Naples CPA?
Jon Blakemore
My accountant is one of the more pricey in our area ($65 an hour) and we are set up with an S corp and my real estate is privately held primarily by my wife and I. This allows us to move money between the two based on financial advantage of the moment. Sonny is 100% correct. Good accountants cost money and are worth it.
How to find one is like everything else. Find out who the other successful people are using. DanT
Jon, it was a referral that Barb got. Franky, I'd call a couple of those listed in the yellow pages that state that they are both tax attorneys and CPA. Or, talk to other contractors from your local association. Tha'ts how Tom got one hell of a great lawyer for his business.
Sonny,
I do understand that part. A certain amount of income shifting and limitation of liability makes sense. But like you say, the numbers need to justify it, otherwise you're just paying the tax guy to do a second or third set of books and tax returns. Most small contractors and landlords can't be bothered. Actually, there are a lot of them that won't even set up one corporation - never mind two- and they would rather rely on insurance (and prayer). I've been guilty of it myself.
Don
Contracting for me is a great job but sometimes it can be exhausting mentally as well as physically. Some of the mental pressure comes when clients don`t trust us like that guy you talked about.
I think that subbing out to other contractors is a good idea but I wouldn`t close the door on your client business. When I need some time off but still want some income, I take on a bath remodel. I set up the job, demo, frame, and let the plumbing, heating and electrical subs go at it for awhile. While the subs are working I just have to show up to get them set up and check on them at the end of the day. In the middle of the day I go to the gym, bookstore, estimate a job or work on my own house. When those subs are done,I do the drywall , painting and tile. If the clients are a pain or are bad vibeing me, I sub it out. I always do the trim and put in the accessories.
If I need some money, I fill in with small jobs while the subs are working. That is what I like about being your own contractor. I can control (sometimes) what I`m going to do. If you go the route of working for other contractors I would still consider jobs from your respectful clients.
Good luck
Jaybird,
I'm walking in the same shoes. Been GC'ing mostly, with rare sub work. Getting tired of the same things you are. It's tough to make it here, without a crew. Subbing is rather uncommon, with the exception of the "sub- employee" tax dodgers. Personally, I don't have what it takes to be an employer anymore.
What, I've been doing the last couple of years, is building one house per year, for a customer, essentially by my self. These jobs are tough to find, because of the extended schedule. Been burning myself out but good! Trying to keep that progressing, while infilling smaller projects, so I don't fall of the radar of my customer base. Running that hard can make it easy to get sloppy, with your business practices. You can work your butt off, only to find you really didn't make what you should.
I'm thinking of moving into smaller projects, more suited to my one man crew. Probably means going back into remodeling. Which puts me into competition with alot more people. Since I run a higher overhead, that alot of the small contractors, that could be a tough road.
As a GC of higher end custom homes here, I only compete with 4 or 5 others. And if the millwork gets unique, most of those guys fade away, or price themselves out of the market. I'm set up to do alot more than anyone else, in house. Most of my smaller jobs are custom trim, and cabinets, or other architectural details. This would be my desired niche market, but right now it is only good for about 3 months of work a year. Homes are a commodity here, just a roof over your head. Not much detail on the average.
I'd love to sub trim for other builders , but that is pretty much unheard of here. Nobody wants to admit they may not be the best, or most efficient. Soooooooo I keep thinking, what to do!!
If you find the magic answer ,please let us know. You're not alone!
Good luck!!
Brudoggie
Let you know?
Then I`d have to kiss my niche market good-bye! LOL!
One thing I`ve considered is offering up my services as a punch list guy. Quite often with larger contractors its those smaller items at the end of the job that hold them up moving on to the next one. And often too the HOs have other projects they`d like to have attentioned but are told they`ll have to wait until they can be put back on the calender.
Trouble is, I think there might be more cons than pros with this aproach.
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Jaybird,
Yeah, punch lists could amount to an astonishing amount of work. First con that I see, is that as soon as you establish that niche. The GC's will let more and more of the PITA stuff go. Down the slippery slope you slide :)
Maybe some of us smaller "breaktimers" should form a joint venture, and travel around the country, helping each other. A month here, two weeks there. Yeah, that's the ticket. We could follow the good weather! Don't think my wife is ready to be a single parent though. See, every great idea has its downfalls. Brudoggie
One thing I`ve considered is offering up my services as a punch list guy.
That's kinda the idea I started with to break into the high end market. Never really materialized ... hard to sell ... had lotsa "that sounds interresting" ...
had a couple guy's I even started working with. The problem ... they never wanted to admit to the length of the punch "list"!
Just try giving an honest price and watch their faces!
Most thought it was "cheaper" to have their own crew keep doing what that've always done. And keep running into the last minute punch list problems and unsatisfied customers.
Their was wasn't cheaper ... just easier to ignore the real cost.
The numbers were the same(or lower) ... the list was the same lenght .... the timing was much better ... and the finished product was better .... but having that big number sitting there on a sheet of paper ...
Well that's no good!
It's a concept I see as working .. to everyone's advantage ... U just gotta find the right builders to sell it to. They gotta be realistic about their costs and want to maintain high customer satisfaction.
Jeff
Jeff-If they were really concerned about high (or low) customer satisfaction, they wouldn't have allowed the shi!!y work to start with.
You're right, there are people in that niche. You are just going to have to dig some to find the right contractor willing to pay for the services. It may be somebody that's so busy he/she can't sacrifice the in house manpower for the punch list. Then, you're in.
Don
Even thought of taking the idea one step further....
A good portion of projects often end on a negative note....whaddaya think about offering a service of "project arbitration"? Step in as things are looking grim, or even after they`ve soured, and complete the project at a cost that satisfies both the HO and the contractor.
Dunno.......just things that run through my mind when I`m hangin` drywall.
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Jay,
Did you see the recent article about those "Bad Contractors" in the Journal News??
I'll give away my Ace.
It seems that there are an awful lot of h/o's that are incapable of hireing or dealing with contractors. And there is no scarcity of scum bag "contractors" either.
I see a need for a specific type of consultation service. Seriously, what do you think.
I'm not very familiar with the job description of a construction services consultant. Is that part of what they do??
Eric
E&J Consulting Services
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
"construction services consultant"
Ya got me....if I had to guess, its probably just a fancy title some designer gave him/herself.
The more I think about it though, I`m wondering if such a job wouldn`t actually force me deeper into what I`m looking to get away from.
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well .. I may be slightly qualified to comment on that too!
worked for a contractor as an employee then subbed for them too.
Spent lotsa time "inside" the company ... toward their end ... there was lotsa end of the job tensions with just about every customer ... seeing as how this million dollar company was slowing going bankrupt.
They coulda used the guy U suggest ... but ... they'd not have the money ... or attitude ... to pay for the services.
Captain of a sinking ship usually doesn't wanna admit there's a problem .. any problem. Plus ... the ship is sinking ... money's already being robbed from peter to pay paul ...
You'd need to find a real "eye's wide open" contractor who's open to change ... and who's not a control freak that'll give up "the power" for you to go in and make things right.
Again ... I think a good idea ... I think it'd be a hard sell though.
Probably needed ... all the time ... everywhere ... but if the need is there ... good chance the owner of said company is the root of the problem.
Man ... U are thinking out of the box!
Jeff
Jeff, and Jay,
I see an ad in the help wanted around here lately for just that.
Says high end builder, yady ya............I'm sure the pay is way up there!
Definite need, but a toough sell as well.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Jay, the biggest name in the arbitration/mediation business is the American Arbitration Association. I have been involved with a couple of arbitrations and considered trying it myself. From what I was told, they have up front requirements and continuing education requirements and on and on...Bottom line, it's a pain in the a$$; the old timers get picked first. I'm not trying to shoot your idea down, but if you try to do it on your own, it's really tough. You don't have any name recognition unless you advertise like crazy, or you can hook up with somebody else who'se already known and respected not as a contractor but as a mediator settler, or litigator.
By the way, thanks for starting this thread. I'm kind of betwixt and between on which way to go in the future myself. Funny thing is that I was considering the GC option myself because it seemed like a good way to make a decent buck and not break your back everyday. Listening to everybody's stories helps make you appreciate the pitfalls that you don't see, or don't deal with until you're in the middle of it. It reminds me of the schmucks that I've dealt with who call themselves experienced carpenters and want to be paid big money.
Maybe the answer is to do a little of everything - some GC, some subbing, some carpentry, a house down the road - at least then it won't be boring. The money is all green in the bank and nobody cares where it cme from as long as the bills are paid. Good luck.
Don
Funny thing is that I was considering the GC option myself because it seemed like a good way to make a decent buck and not break your back everyday.
I suppose thats possible.....but you`d really have to be a hands off kinda person. A true GC. Not carpenter who acts as a GC. Just a guy who knows the business inside and out. I`m not that guy. I`m a carpenter. I`m happiest swingin` a hammer. I`m also a perfectionist. The very idea of hiring someone to do a job and then sit back and not get involved.....ewwwww.....gives me the chills.
Funny thing for me, is that I originally saw carpentry as a stepping stone to contracting. Now that the foot (feet) is inside the door.....mebbe I really didn`t want that to begin with. Or maybe not just yet.....another fifteen, twenty years of bustin` hump may shed a whole new light.
Best of luck to you though....whatever you finally decide.
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while we're on the subject ...
my life was least complicated right after I was laid off from that first company.
I was laid off and asked to come back as a sub at the same meeting!
for about a year and a half ... I subbed most of their tile/cab's/trim.
Pretty much "turn key" kitchens and bath finishes. I worked mostky with my buddy Joe, their head lead carp. He got most of their bigger projects ... so he was happy to frame up and run the drywall/mechanical subs ... then go somewhere else in the whole house remodels while I did all the fun stuff.
Typically they'd lay the backer board .... I'd go in ... usually contracted to do the kitchen and at least the master bath .. usually all the baths ... and set all the time first.
Unless one room was more important than another ... I'd do "it all" in phases.
Set all the tile ... then install the kitchen cabs. Install the bath cabs.
Then run all the associated trim in those rooms.
Joe's crew would usually trim the rest of the house ...
though on some smaller remodels I did all the trim too .. set the doors and trimmed BR's etc ... then hit the kitchens and bath.
Most of the work was broken into 2 or 4 to 6 week long projects/contracts.
even on a "whole kitchen" .. I'd give one lump sum .. but the tile/cab/trim prices were shown asa break down. Made life with change orders easier.
For that time im my life ... I pretty much just showed up on different hing end projects doing finish work ... fit a couple of my own jobs in ... but they feed me about 80% of my work.
Was a good deal for both ... they paid .... every now and then we fought about money ... every now and then they tried to replace me with other subs ... but their customers loved me ... I made their lives easier.
Then ... the company split due to impending bankrpucy ... partner dispute ... etc.
and eventially I stopped subbing for them bacause the pay's got slower and fight about my price occured more often.
But .. again ... it was a great idea!
I've tried to find the same set up again ... haven't been lucky yet ... but I'll keep trying. I actually found them in the first place by pitching myself as their "punch-list sub" ... ended up employeed.
Jeff
Got a buddy.....former fellow employee.....he`s now a project manager with a large outfit up the line a ways.
Been wanting to give him a buzz and offer the services you`ve described. Bit of a hike up his way.....but I imagine the money is most probably worth it.
Workin` with (for) friends and all though......rarely goes well.
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give your buddy a call.
One reason I stayed busy with them was my buddy Joe figuring on using me from day one of each project. He got to pick his own subs from their pool ...
as long as the owners were happy with my work ... he could keep feeding me work.
Funny thing was I met him my first day working for them as an employee ... I was to be his head carp as he was their head lead ... we got along great from day one.
because friends long before I was laid off/subbed.
Now ... that company is long gone ... Joe is trying his hand at being self employeed for the first time in about 15 years ...
and I just brought him in to rebuild my current customers front porch as I'm busy inside the house.
as long as you're both professionals ... there's no problem working with buddies.
He'd even give me the inside on what their budget's were ... trust me .. I never had the chance to "pad up" to their top limits! He gave me the news ahead of time so I'd know just how unrealistic there were ... and have more info to talk them into a reasonable price. Always an up hill fight.
Or .. I'd tell him what I could do for that amount of money ... he's see if he could make the rst happen with his crew and budget ... we'd reach own own agreement ... then I'd approach the owners with this idea ... "ya know, if Joe will do x, x, x, .. I'll do y, y, y ... for $xx.xx
In a round about way ... we'd skip the owners to make sure Joe's projects got done on time, on budget and with happy clients.
Jeff
just things that run through my mind when I`m hangin` drywall.
btw ... I have the very same affliction.
Jeff
I have the very same affliction.
LOL....the more mind numbing the task, the more elaborate the plans.
I ever tell you about the, ever so chic, bikini wax shop I was gonna open up?
Same buddy I mentioned in previous post.....we had it all worked out! LOL!
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