Drill-Drivers vs. Impact Drills?
I need to understand the practical differences between drill-drivers and impact driver/drills (beyond the chuck).
I’m looking at replacing my ancient DeWalt 9.6 V drill-driver with Li-ion equipment. I’m thinking of going with Makita 18V because I like the feel of the tools and my good luck with Makita tools in the past. I’m not a pro.
On another thread, I read where somebody doesn’t use a drill-driver for driving screws anymore since he got his impact driver. I’d like to understand this better.
My ongoing maintenance involves removing and driving relatively soft square drive stainless steel deck screws. SS is quite soft and I need to use a delicate touch even with my DW 9.6V. (I also drive much heavier galvy lag screws and nuts — right now I use my arm-breaking 9A Hitachi corded drill.)
Do impact drivers have enough control to drive fragile screws?
Do impact drivers reduce reactive torque on your arm?
Are there any other important differences?
I’m thinking of maybe getting two tools — a driver-drill plus an impact driver, but I’d like to understand the differences first.
(For your reading enjoyment, here’s a picture of my project.)
Thanks in advance!
[Sorry — I meant to post this in the tools forum.]
Edited 6/6/2007 2:22 pm ET by Powpowhound
Replies
If you did the timber work shown in the pic, you can call yourself "not a pro" or, whatever else you want!
We use impact drivers to drive everything from a #6 phillips head when doing cabinetry, to half inch lagscrews when doing timber work in housebuilding.
We use drill-drivers to drill most all holes, though an impact will do a nice job drilling large diameter holes in softwood, using spade bits.
A drill-driver is used if driving smaller screws in delicate work, and for driving hardware screws, such as when fixing hinge butts to doors and jambs. An impact driver is a little too quick and coarse when you want control so as to seat the screw well without marring the head.
When we first got an impact driver, we said, "Wow. How did we do without this for so long?"
I don't know from personal experience how well impact drivers work with soft SS. I do know that you have a tremendous amount of control with an impact driver.
With an impact driver, the tool does pretty much all the work instead of relying on the torque supplied by your grip on the tool. The force is applied in regular pulses. People often describe the screws "melting into the wood", as they seem to go in with very little effort. Since they go in with pulses, you actually have more control over them and will find yourself stopping the driver right when the head gets where you want it instead of over/underdriving them.
You can also place big lag screws too without a problem - again, the tool will twist the fastener, not your wrist. I've had no problems with 1/2"x5" lags at all with my $59 Ryobi 18v.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
SS is not soft. It is actually harder, but it is brittle is the reason it breaks easier
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, oh wise one, you are mistaken on this: SS screws are softer than hardened steel screws (deck screws).
See for yourself (I just did to double check myself) - get a SS screw and another kind of screw. Using the point of each, see if you can scratch the metal on other scews head. You will easily scratch the SS screw, you will not damage the hardened steel screw. Note, you may be able to ding up any anti rust coating, when I tried it with a yellow zinc coated screw even the zinc layer was unscratched.
I remembered that from HS Earth Science - how to tell one rock from another by hardness, the harder rock scratches the softer rock.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
You are right. Add in Ductile, and Malleable in the equation tho'. SS is not malleable which he confused as hardness or brittleness. Different alloys also enter in..not all SS screws are the same mix."you are dead a lot longer than you are alive"Noah Aaron MacKenzie, 1990.
I totally agree on that.
I was surprised to read that some of the harder SS mixes will corrode.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
So does that explain this?Normally, I buy SS from an industrial fastener supply -- and have never had a problem with softness or being too brittle. But last week I had to buy some SS screws from a big box (Menards), and I swear, about every 10th screw, the impact driver mashed up the square drive.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
One thing that makes SS , SS is the Chromium ( among other elements..Moly, ti, manganse, cobalt..just a few) and any one batch to the next can be differnt, unless you are NASA and list exactly what proportions you want in your mix.
When I was helper in an annodizing shop in High school, the owner got a kick out of asking me to just cut off the head from this bolt..the bolt was titainium, went thru 5 hacksaw blades, never made a kerf...LOL now THAT is hard stuff."you are dead a lot longer than you are alive"Noah Aaron MacKenzie, 1990.
Since we are all probably using more SS fasteners, is there any way of telling which ones are crap (= soft)?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
An old tool buyers trick is carry a file when shopping yardsales and such. If the file skates w/out cutting, the metal is atleast as hard as the file or harder. LOL
I don't know. Like I said. Malleable, Ductile, hard and brittle exist in varying degrees of any metal. I know copper sure gets workhardend easy. So there for the process of manufactureing the screws or what ever may affect the final properties."you are dead a lot longer than you are alive"Noah Aaron MacKenzie, 1990.
Metalworking ... Ahh, yes ..... There are said to be two kinds of metal magicians:
The "Blacksmith" believes that the perfect metal can be made by heat treatments, tempering, forging, etc. By physically manipulating the metal.
The "Alchemist" believes that the true path lies in blends and additives ... eye of newt, wing of bat ... and presto! Miracle metal. Even though there are an infinite variety of metals out there, we TRY to sort through them with names like "stainless steel" and 'rustalloy.' Still, we have to fall back upon experience and trying things out. The best way to be sure of getting quality materials lies not in knowing the material ... rather, in knowing your vendor. Some places have a habit of providing good stuff; others may focus on something else (such as price). In the case of fasteners, you are more likely to get satisfaction from a product of (for example) ITW than some no-name you find in some mass retailer, with a list of 'countries of manufacture' that reads like the UNICEF missions list. Nor is there a 'perfect answer' that suits everyone. Bronze hardware seems to work out much better at poolside and seashore than stainless ... while stainless works great in packing houses. I can't pretend to understand why, as all three of those locations are loaded with salt and chlorine! In the fastener equation, don't leave out the bit! I have noted major differences between brands, as well as a difference between 'new' and 'old.' Some bits, especially the multi-packs of cheap ones, are so hard, or poorly shaped, they can't help but damage fastener heads. Some bargain!
I buy almost all my fasteners (and bits) from an industrial supply place, and i have never had a problem. So I will just keep on doin' what I been doin'. But honestly, it never occurred to me that all SS fasteners were not equal until I bought that box of screws from Menards. Thanks for the insights.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hilarious!From when I shopped for fasteners during the last century:Type 304 SS is most common. It's lots softer than coated steel.Type 316 SS has better salt water performance. It's even softer than 304.I chose 304 because I couldn't drive 316 with a drill-driver. So far 304 has worked great for me. ~12 years on a deck that gets splashed with salt water several times a month. The screw threads are still bright. For comparison, galvanized fittings corroded away to dust during the same time. And the heads have corroded off half the ceramic-coated screws that were installed (as a test) at the same time.Interestingly, the screws also seem to have work-hardened and are perhaps somewhat easier to re-use than they were to drive the first time. ...maybe my imagination.
Everything you wanted to know about SS. BTW most of what we deal with is in the three hundred series.http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/stainless_steels/stainless.cfmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel
Whoever thought a simple carpenter would have to have a degree in metalurgy (well, at least a minor) to order the right screws. I can just see the eyes glaze over at the city desk when I walk up and ask for an austenitic grade SS fastener, and then tell them I want those with chromium-nickel instead of chromium-manganese-low nickel steels.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Well, I don't recall you mentioning "hardened deck screws" for comparison.But there are also many grades of stainless steel too, so it may not be worthwhile arguing the point, giving all the variables. There are a lot of different alloys.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's hard when I'm right, isn't it? ;)
AHHH COME ON! I GET TO BE RIGHT ONCE IN AWHILE!
he he.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
awl write, ewe can bee the screw expert today
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And yet, somehow methinks he'll never best a Piffin screw.
;-)
Only dead fish swim with the stream. Author Unknown
Doesn't stop him from screwing with a piffin!Hey, you got sucked back in here finally, eh?Welcome home
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, and this thread is a prime e.g. of what I've missed most about this place...
Be well P; I hope to see you and Mrs N at Northfest (time will tell 'bout that tho).
Only dead fish swim with the stream. Author Unknown
SS is not soft. It is actually harder, but it is brittle is the reason it breaks easier
True only for some grades of stainless.
As with most everything, it depends. I've used a lot of SS screws, all shapes and sizes, and some have been soft as butter.
Makita is running a 14vt. package deal right now. You get a impact driver,drill and a light with two batterys and charger for about 220 bucks. I'm going to get one. Bruce
That is a deal! I have two each of their 12V impacts and the 14.4V drill/drivers. The impacts see most of the driving action and the drills see the drill and delicate action
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have booth a drill driver and an impact driver and like them both. I had a lot of problems distroying SS square drive deck screws with the drill. With the impact driver I do not twist the heads off or destroy the square head.
They are different and that takes some getting used to. The impact drivers drive the screws in much faster than a drill/driver. One thing I wish the impact drivers had is a torque clutch. I use the clutch on my drill all time and have most of the settings memorized for which kind of wood and which screw. So I know how tightly the screw is set. I don't have that kind of feel with the impact driver. How tight is it when the screw is flush?
Your work is very nice eventhough you are not a pro. If you are not using the tools all day everyday to make a living I respectfully request you take a look at the ryobi cordless tools. FHB did a comparo and said they were the best for the money and almost as good as DeWalts tools for half the price.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Hey powpowhound,
Great looking work, If I was you I would treat myself to a new tool in honor of it.
I use both a cordless drill and an impact driver. I have driven #6 stainless screws with my impact with no problem. The problems I have with an impact are usually due to trying to drive a long screw in an awkward place and haveing the bit, which for me is usually worn, cam out becuse of the angle and occasionally the speed of the driver. Impact drivers are variable speed but usually operate at about 2600 rpm's no load speed. So they do take some adjustment.
The real reason I am posting is to let you know that Makita has come out with an all in one tool it is an impact driver, hammerdrill and drill driver with a clutch. it is small about 7 inches in length and utilizes a lithium ion battery. On the Makita website it is #BTP140 listed in the new products section Makita.com.
I have seen it for sale in a catalog, I can't remember which one maybe Mcfeelys, mcfeelys.com. Seems like it was around $399.99 at the time.
In my opinion, an impact is worth it . I have a makita 14 volt, and not that you would want to but I have driven 1/4 inch lagbolts 3" long with no pilot hole.
Hope this helps,
Webby
Here's the differences between the various tools:
A DRILL, or drill/driver, or screwgun simply turns the screw. Pretty much the same turning force is constantly applied, and the greatest bulk of the forward pressure comes from your pushing on the tool.
A HAMMER DRILL has a device that interrupts the turning force, replacing it into a small amount of forward impact. This amount of impact is dependent upon how hard you push on the tool.
A ROTO-HAMMER has a device that applies some of the motor power in a forward impact. This impact does not depend upon your pushing on the tool.
An IMPACT DRIVER has a device that converts the turning action of the motor into a series of "sideways" impacts. It's rather like hammering on the end of a wrench. This action, in turn, uses the threads of the screw to pull the screw into the work. It does not need you to push on the tool in order to work.
Which method works best? Well, for driving screws, the impact driver has become quite popular.I have used screw-feed bits in an impact driver to drill wood, and have been most impressed.
PPH,
Nice work, you would make few pros blush.
I am a facilities maintenance carpenter, get paid for this so I guess I'm in. I build a lot of paint grade cabinetry using AC plywood and two by material. On occasion I use Oak ply and one by Oak.
We have a 18V DeWalt Impact Driver that I would be lost without it. I predrill each hole with a countersink drill bit and then shot in the screws with the impact driver. I didn't buy into the predrilling at first but after a few split edges and wondering screws it became apparent this was the preferred method. Where the impact shines is in speed and not auguring out the wood fibers at desired depth. It also doesnt wrench your wrist nor over spins once the trigger is released. It is used daily and not loaned out to other departments.
Saw
Thanks very much, Guys. Your comments are very helpful.I'm glad you like my project. I am treating myself to the tools I want right now 1) because I'm about 15 years from retirement and now is when I can afford them, 2) because now is when I'm working on the project of my lifetime and I need the tools, and 3) because I can justify the cost in the savings in labor by doing it myself.I'll look at the Ryobi tools -- thanks for that suggestion. But I'm very impressed with the technology and the ergonomics in Makita. I'll make my decision based on what I like best, not what is cheapest. My intent is that I'll never be replacing the tools I am buying now. ...we'll see.I have been thinking about the all-in-one BTP 140 if I go with an impact driver. But I always seem to need two tools, one to drill and one to drive, so I'm also leaning toward the BDF 451 driver-drill. Its little brother, the BDF 452 HW, feels really nice and eliminates the front end weight of the BHP 451 with hammer. I don't think the BTP 140 alone would do the job because it doesn't have an adjustable chuck. (Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), the BDF 452 HW charger blew up the minute I plugged it in so I had to take the tool back.)Great feedback about driving SS. I had to drive every screw in my deck myself because I couldn't find a helper who could reliably avoid twisting off the screws or mucking up the heads. It sounds like with an impact-driver, the learning curve isn't as steep.Here's a picture of the other side of the house with another portico taken a few weeks ago before finishing the first floor siding.P.S. The BTP 140 has a clutch for controlling screw torque. I never use them, preferring to work from the feel of the handle, but it might be a nice feature if it works in impact driver mode.
Edited 6/6/2007 9:52 pm ET by Powpowhound
can ya help with the pics..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Here's a resize. Nice design.
Now, to address your original question: Drills are for making holes. Impact drivers are for driving screws. Period. You'll find you mung up heads far less with an i.d. You can drive screws right through the workpiece no problem. You have to learn to watch the screw and stop when it's deep enough, 'cause the i.d. won't even slow down as the head sinks well below the surface. Try one, and you won't go back.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
thanks...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Bump. Hi Imerc. Here's the tread you wanted to see.
View ImageI dug my cellar in the side of a hill sloping to the south, where a woodchuck had formerly dug his burrow, down through sumach and blackberry roots, and the lowest stain of vegetation, six feet square by seven deep, to a fine sand where potatoes would not freeze in any winter. -Thoreau's Walden
One mor thing after reading your post about the adjustable or three jaw chuck, Makita makes a keyless three jaw chuck with a quarter inch shank made to go in the quick release chuck of the impact driver. Sorry I dont have a part number but I bought mine at Home Depot. About 25 bucks.
Webby
impressive...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
While I may not have the definitive collection of cordless here I bet I do in my county. I have two DW 24v hammer drills, two DW14.4 (one hammer, one regular drill), three DW12v drills, Milwaukee 12v, two Craftsman (12&14.4), Dw 14.4 impact, Dw12V impact, Bosch 12v impact, B&D 12v impact ( was 29,50 on sale), Bosch Litheon angle driver.
I reach for the two Bosch products the most. The DW impacts are great, but I like the Bosch probably the best. I had 12v Makita Nimh impact and 14.4 drill/driver and sold them to a customer who was more impressed than me. My electrician has Mak LiIon and Milwaukee and loves them.
The impact drivers require a fairly fine touch to not overtorque things but it does not require all that much skill. Looking at the beautiful things I saw you should have no problem.
I have not tried the new Bosch Litheon impact but hope to tomorrow at Heavy Duty Tools.net open house.
Bob
I have driven countless #10 SS deck screws in the last few years with a 12v Makita NiMH impact driver. Awesome tool, love it.
I now have the 18v Li-Ion Makita impact (BTD140), it's got more power and a longer battery life. Still no problem driving screws.
I personally don't think that, despite the adapter chuck for the impacts (which I have also used extensively), impact drivers are made to fit every task. Since you can find good deals on combo kits all over, I'd find one with the impact, a driver-drill, and anything else you wanted.
But for the prices, do yourself a favor and get rid of the little Dewalt, and treat yourself to a new tool or 3 for your good work.
Again, great comments. I'll chuck my little DW next week! hahaI could have gotten a combo kit. Instead, I ordered exactly what I wanted. I got a Makita BTP140 impact driver/hammer drill/drill/driver. And I got a BDF451Z driver/drill (tool only). Adding the hammer drill functionality to the impact driver doesn't cost very much in terms of weight and balance, I believe, compared to adding it to the drill. So I've got a nice, light drill and a nice, light impact driver. Without the battery and charger, the BDF451Z was only $100, so it ended up costing almost what a combo kit would have, except for the higher cost of the 4-function impact driver.I'll still need to be careful driving screws to the right depth though. The clutch doesn't work in impact driver mode. And based on what you guys have said, I can't imagine choosing to use the driver mode when I can slide the switch and get impact driver. Mostly, I got the BTP140 for the hammer-drill. I'll let you know how it works in its other modes. I've got about a hundred big galvanized lag screws to drive into my new bulkhead next week and I'm hoping the combination of the two tools will make the job pretty painless. I've been living on Advil in the evenings dealing with pain from the reactive torque of my drills. That, I believe, is probably the biggest difference between a pro and "not a pro." I'm not in shape for my weekends! ...Well, maybe the other difference is the amount of time I need to take thinking about how to do things. ;-) Thanks again!Edited 6-15-2007 *********
I want to correct what I said above. Adding a hammer drill to impact driver to produce the BTP140 apparently results in greater weight penalty (0.6 lbs) over the corresponding impact driver BTD140 than does adding a hammer (BHP451)to a drill driver (BDF451) (0.3 lbs). The total weight of the impact driver with hammer (BTP140 - 3.9 lbs), however, is lower than the total weight of the drill-driver with hammer (BHP451 - 4.9 lbs). Depending on what you read, adding a hammer function may also result in reduced peak torque in the impact driver.I've had buyer's remorse since placing the order above, especially since I checked the price of combo kits with the BTD140 impact driver and the BHP451 hammer/drill/driver. The novelty of the BTP140 allows Makita to charge a high premium. Basically, the cost of a combo kit with both the BHP451 and the BTD140 (plus batteries and charger) is lower than the cost of just the BTP140 with batteries and charger. In fact, another thread pointed out a screaming deal on the Makita LXT600 kit -- I could have bought this kit and got both the hammer/drill/driver and impact driver, plus corresponding lithium-ion reciprocating saw, angle grinder, circular saw, work light, and third battery for only $40 more than I paid for the two tools described above the editorial line. Not very careful shopping on my part.So I checked return policies, ordered the 6-pc. kit, and will return the two tools I ordered earlier unopened and unused. I really need the impact driver now, but I just can't justify the high price I originally paid.Also, one other bit of editorial copy -- The way I work, I'm very likely to use a drill on sawhorses and use an impact driver in an uncomfortable position like on top of a ladder. So, to me, I think low weight is more important in an impact driver than in a drill. This means that, for a two-tool combo, the LXT202 kit with both the drill driver and the impact driver would be a better choice for me. (And since my wife had already given the go-ahead to spend $500, the LXT600 kit is an even better deal for me personally! More tools is more better. ;-))
Edited 6/15/2007 6:06 pm ET by Powpowhound
It does take some care to get those sq. drive SS screws in, don't it?!?!
I have found that some square drive bits are more equal to the task than others. I try and find one that is as snug of a fit in the screw as I can, and then keep it as straight as I can into the screw when driving.
Nice work on the redwood details.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
If you've never used an impact driver, you will be amazed at how much easier it is to use than a drill/driver.
As others have noted, you have exquisite control - if you want to turn a screw an extra 60 degrees, you can do it easily.
The control against cam-out is tremendous. I ended up with wrist problems after screwing down a bunch of deck boards because I had to press so hard to keep the bit from caming out on my cordless driver. Last summer I did a whole deck in a couple of days with my makita drill-driver, and it didn't both my wrists at all. This is especially useful if you have to work overhead or in a position where you can't get behind the drill.
Finally, the sheer torque is enormous. My makita 12V will do nearly 100 ft/lbs of torque at stall, and it had no problem putting a bunch of 3" lag bolts for my deck (I did pre-drill).
I rarely use my cordless drill - only when I need to drill a lot of holes or ones I can't do with my set of hex drills.
There is no tool that has made me happier in the last 10 years.
There are many here that can atest..."you can never have too many toys (tools)" When can ya come work on my place. That is A grade work!