Question for the pro’s:
I have a 200 foot driveway that needs to be removed, and a new one laid down. The existing driveway probably was laid in the 1950s, and looks to be a stone/composite mix of some sort. It is thoroughly worn and shot through.
My house is a ca 1890 Victorian. I don’t want to have straight blacktop laid down. I also don’t want loose stone/gravel.
What are my options? What issues do I need to consider (cost, life expectancy, etc.)I live in the NY metro area. The job will definitely require some regrading, but the lot is flat. Thanks very much.
Replies
Pavers.
Something that would be historically accurate would be two strips of concrete, each about 18" wide spaced to match your wheel spacing on a car. That was how driveways were done in the 1920's and 1930's when people first started getting cars. You could probably go with 24" wide.
You'd want to prepare a really solid crushed stone base for them, but the remainder would be all grass. If you wish, the grass could be set in special plastic frames that make the grass driveable. The frames are invisible, but allow you to get a wheel on the grass without mudding in.
Such a driveway would not be all that easy for snow removal.
You could also do textured asphalt to look like bricks. The additional cost is much more than it costs the installer to do it. There's a lot of markup on the texturing, so more room for negotiation. It can be colored as well.
I'm not a pro, by the way.
A good call all the way around, I'd say.
Here's the plastic frames you mentioned.
http://www.equiterr.com/grass_pavers.htm
DRC
Thanks for your suggestions. I really need to be able to have the driveway plowed, somewthing I should have mentioned. Textured asphalt might work.
There are a number of sources for permeable paving, masonry blocks in various designs with holes in them. The masonry makes them hard enough to drive on, and the holes let rain water go through in one direction, grass in the other. Same objection as any of the other block paving ideas, you can't plow them with a blade, have to use a snow blower.
Thanks. I need to be able to plow, so it's got to be a solid surface of some kind.
YOU CAN ALSO REMOVE THE BLACK TOP IN THE CENTER AND KEEP GRASS THERE WITH THE PAVERS IT REALLY LOOKS NICE
Clearly I should have mentioned it's got to be plow-able. The challenge is coming up with a solid surface that looks aesthetically good.
Stampcrete?
concrete acid washed(pick your color)
Exposed aggregate concrete!
Interesting discussion
Same problem live in LI New York
1) concrete, pavers etc for long driveway too expensive in our area $10-15 and up a square. Concrete maintance is a bear especially in our area with ground heaves and trees cracking the surface.
2) we want looks and border (belgian block also very expensive for this length.
3) brick borders chip and look bad ( have had this experience in another house)
4) belgian bordrs can be a problem with plowing or winters if car does not find the path and runs into it
suggestions
1) how about borderless steel edging as cheaper alternative and only use belgian border at ends; use pavers near front steps and possible at curb.
2) several fliers in mail have discussed imprinting blacktop or mixing in materials to change the color or texture of blacktop.
However:
Contractors I have spoken to try to talk me out of not using belgian for border,or using alternative surface treatments for the blacktop.
I am afraid to try this technology without knowing someone who has done it.
As of now I have not contracted my driveway would be interested to know what you decide
I
You might go to This Old House web site and look at the resources section.
I know that they have used something that is different from asphalt. I think that it was an asphalt base, but then they rolled other stone over it to embbed it in the surface.
I have never heard of this before, don't know if it is restricted to the Boston area or not.
Bill,
Thanks for your suggestion. I checked out TOH and found a couple of useful articles in their archives. I was surprised to see how often they've used asphalt.
Also learning how important the prep is.
I'd sure like to edge with belgian block, but 200 feet..ka-ching in the NY metro area! Maybe just the area near the house/garage.
The THIS OLD HOUSE driveway you are talking about is called Macadam and is sometimes know as tar-macadam or tarmac. It's gravel with hot tar poured over it, and then more dry gravel dumped on top, and the whole thing is rolled. You end up with a gravel driveway that holds up a lot better than plain gravel. But you can't plow it without scraping all the gravel off.
check around and find some twice fired brick pavers.. brick is period correct and can be laid down yourself if you have some time and are willing.. Have your local paving guy tear out the old pavement but a good base in and then a skim coat of sand.. depending on your location you may be working with clay or sand or anything in between..
I like to also see the use of granite pavers. installed properly they are good for a couple of hundred years without much maintinance..
I would suggest concrete only as a solution over asphault.. I swear the people who sell asphault should be ashamed of themselves.. It's only redeeming value is that it is cheap to install.. maintinace on asphault is tremendous..
Thanks for the input.
I heard of something today called "oil and stone". Do you know if this just one kind of asphalt prep?
I spent 15 years as an engineer in the asphalt paving industry, so I would like to think I speak with some authority. Asphalt has a cheaper initial cost than concrete. It can be constructed faster, and can be used the following day. One of the companies I worked for offered an imprinting process in the asphalt that can be colored. There were many different patterns available. "Streetprint" is the commercial name, and they have a website.
Bear in mind that asphalt is flexible, so don't skimp on the base under the asphalt. A minimum of 6 inches of compacted gravel over a "drainable" subbase, such as sand. The asphalt is only as strong as the base that it sits on.
Thanks for your input. I checked out StreetPrint website. The product looks very attractive. It says it will hold up to snow plowing (rubber guard recommended).
I've heard that the old pavement can be removed, broken up, and used as part of the base? Is this correct?
I've detected concrete here and there underneath the top layer in places where it's worn through. I wonder if what we'er driving on now -- just loose gravel in places--is part of the old base. I'm sure nothing's been done with the driveway since the 1950s, so it doesn't owe us anything.
To recycle the asphalt in your driveway into the new base would not be cost effective. Most asphalt "recycling" on a small scale consists of removing the asphalt, hauling it to a crusher, and blending it with other stone. This recycled asphalt pavement, or RAP, is a great base material. So is crushed concrete. Speaking of concrete, make sure to have whatever concrete that is in your drive now removed. While asphalt can be placed over concrete, the cracks or outline of the concrete below will eventually reflect through the new asphalt surface.
Great advice. Much appreciated.
I have a 900' long driveway and absolutely refused to have a ribbon of black asphalt. I was looking for something durable, yet somewhat rustic looking.
I did what is refered to around here as macadam.
The drive was regraded, then a base layer of remilled/recycled asphalt was put down and compacted.
Then heated liquid asphalt was sprayed over that.
Then chip stone was layed into the hot asphalt, then compacted again to set the loose chipstone into the mix below. It's soft for a couple of days, then it sets hard.
Looks great, but there is a bit of loose stone on the surface. However, even if the loose stones are brushed off, or get plowed off, you'll still have a solid base underneath that has a surface/wear layer of the chipsstone that was rolled into the base.
I was told to figure on getting 10 years out of it, then re-sealing with another layer of liquid asphalt and another wear layer of chipstone.
Unlike cracked asphalt, you can keep building up on what you have.
I have a 44" snowblower. I set the shoes to ride about a half-inch high and have had no problem with the blower gobbling up the loose stones.
Lemme see if I can find a website...
Here's the guy that did my drive: http://www.larrytorti.com/
A great idea, thanks. I checked out the website. I then called a couple of asphalt pavers on Long Island, where I live. When I said "macadam" to them, the response was "that's just another name for asphalt." #!&%!!!!#
Nothing's ever easy...
I had a horrible time finding someone near me...so I ended up calling in Torti. Good guy, what a character. I'm in CT, he's in RI.
One local paving outfit would do regular asphalt, then come back 6 months later to roll stone into it.
Checked out a few of their jobs that they did that on, but I didn't like the look as much as what Torti does.
Some other ideas come to mind after reading the additional posts. You could do asphalt with a brick or stone border. Or asphalt with a stamped brick or stone appearance border, which can be topcoated with a color (which will hold up a long time since the border doesn't get any wear).
I disagree with those who say asphalt is high maintenance. If it is installed on a solid enough compacted base there is no maintenance at all. It can go decades without any appreciable decay. Cracking comes from a base that's either too thin or not solid enough. People try to pave over mush, sand, clay, or gravel and it's not more going to hold up than trying to pave a water bed with peanut brittle.
If you choose bricks, make certain they are rated for paving service and freeze-thaw service. If they are not, they won't hold up. Pine Hall Brick is one brand I've used and like very much. Brick is not cheap, though.
You can improve the appearance also by making some curves in the driveway. Upstate, we place reflective sticks along the driveway in the fall so the plow driver keeps to the pavement. It reduces spring lawn repairs considerably.
How much loose gravel is too much? You can make a driveway with just graded and compacted road base. You end up with a little loose gravel that soon migrates to the edges. The surface is hard and doesn't go soft when it gets wet. There are many thousands of miles of roads and driveways like this out in my part of the country that do get snowplowed. I don't know the specific technique the plows use. They do need periodic maintenance, but I imagine the period would be a lot longer for a driveway than for a county road, and I know the county roads don't get graded any more often than once a year in most places.
Too much gravel ?? I installed a 150 ft driveway. My problem was my area is slightly swampy. I dug down 24" and used 2" rock. I mixed 1/2 rock on top. In total I used 175 yards of rock. I topped it off with concrete. Near the road, the last 20ft is asphalt. When it rains really good, the driveway soaks it right up, BUT i still haven't gotten a crack. My neighbors thought I was nuts, but I don't have standing water in my yard anymore.
I've had heavy equipment on the driveway, still no cracks.
The rock came from a lime stone quarry here in Chicago- I realize that isn't available to everyoneNever too much gravel
I think you used the gravel in the right place. What Brooklyn said was that he didn't want loose gravel as the top surface, which I agree with.
There are rideres on the botoms of the plows to hold them just off the road surface....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!