Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Nov 08, 1999 04:06pm | #1

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   JB,

   I love brick in drives. The problem is installation. If on sand or a mortar bed eventully they will settle and crack this will form channels and puddles. Actully this looks good in my opinion. If you want a true surface pour concrete and then mortar pavers on top. I have had people put brick on top when the right paver wasnt available.

   Rick Tuk

2. 
   Eric_M._Borgman | Nov 08, 1999 06:14pm | #3

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   J.B.,

   It's really a matter of personal choice and what goes well with the house, neighborhood, etc. Concrete for driveways is usually 3000 psi from a contractor, 4000 psi if your village requires it or you pay extra. Make sure the concrete mix design includes air-entrainment for freeze-thaw durability. 5 - 7% is good. A water reducer is also a good admixture; keeps the water - cement ratio where is should be and still allows 4" slump for finishing. Don't let the finishers "baptize" the slab while finishing. This ruins the water - cement ratio at the surface (the most critical part). Also, with air entrained concrete, you don't need to let the concrete bleed-out before floating.

   Brick pavers (concrete) are cast under pressure and run around 8000 psi strength. That's about double what you get with good concrete. You can also lay them yourself, without skilled help. A much more leisurely operation. In addition to these benefits, if you get stains or settlement you can pull them up and relay them.

   With either system, a good base is critical to long term durability. 6" well graded and compacted crushed stone with 2"+/- sand leveling bed is good. Weed barrier fabric should also be placed if you've got weed problems.

   Again, what you choose is a matter of personal preference. Cost isn't much different when you consider the lower price of concrete plus the added cost of a finisher/helper about equals material cost of good brick. Good Luck with your project.

   Eric

3. 
   Eric_M._Borgman | Nov 08, 1999 06:14pm | #4

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   J.B.,

   It's really a matter of personal choice and what goes well with the house, neighborhood, etc. Concrete for driveways is usually 3000 psi from a contractor, 4000 psi if your village requires it or you pay extra. Make sure the concrete mix design includes air-entrainment for freeze-thaw durability. 5 - 7% is good. A water reducer is also a good admixture; keeps the water - cement ratio where is should be and still allows 4" slump for finishing. Don't let the finishers "baptize" the slab while finishing. This ruins the water - cement ratio at the surface (the most critical part). Also, with air entrained concrete, you don't need to let the concrete bleed-out before floating.

   Brick pavers (concrete) are cast under pressure and run around 8000 psi strength. That's about double what you get with good concrete. You can also lay them yourself, without skilled help. A much more leisurely operation. In addition to these benefits, if you get stains or settlement you can pull them up and relay them.

   With either system, a good base is critical to long term durability. 6" well graded and compacted crushed stone with 2"+/- sand leveling bed is good. Weed barrier fabric should also be placed if you've got weed problems.

   Again, what you choose is a matter of personal preference. Cost isn't much different when you consider the lower price of concrete plus the added cost of a finisher/helper about equals material cost of good brick. Good Luck with your project.

   Eric

4. 
   Guest_ | Nov 09, 1999 06:07am | #5

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   J.B.

   I'm not sure what you mean by your statement "I've been told there's a difference btwn "brick" and "pavers" and that brick is stronger".

   Let me give a little info around this topic:

   There are 2 basic types of brick: Wall brick and paver brick. Wall brick are the ones with the holes in 'em. Paver bricks are solid and much harder. I think it has to do with the firing process. If you want to see this for your self, get a wall brick and a full thickness paver brick. Take the wall brick and break it with a hammer. Now try to break the paver with the same amount of force you used to break the wall brick. Now, since the paver did not break, hit it 2x as hard! If you are not convinced, try cutting each type of brick with a masonry saw. Also, brick pavers come in 2 thickness (in these parts); 1 5/8" and 2 1/4". Brick pavers also come in dry install flavor (4" x 8" face surface) and the mortar-in flavor - (3 5/8" x 7 5/8")- modular pavers. One down side to brick pavers is that (in my area) they only come in a limited # of colors. Here are some pictures of dry and modular brick pavers.

   There are also concrete pavers that come in various shapes and sizes. As far as I know, all these go in dry (no mortar joints). These are attractive and durable but more expensive than dry install brick pavers. Because of the shapes and colors available, you can make some really cool patterns with concrete pavers. Concrete pavers are hard (or harder) to cut just like paver bricks. Here are some pictures of what can be done with concrete pavers. Here is some info on installing concrete pavers.

   All mortar-in brick (modular) pavers that I have seen installed went in over concrete (in my area). Around here, the labor only for installation of mortar-in brick pavers (you provide the the substrate) is about $5.50 per/sq. ft. This really adds up when you consider that the substrate can cost that much too. On the crews that I've seen, the apprentice masons are not normally used to install pavers. Not being a brick layer, I have never been successful doing mortar in pavers my self. Personally, I consider modular (mortar-in) brick pavers to be one of the most attractive hard exterior surface available. One problem with modular brick pavers is that they are not resilient when it comes to freezing weather as they are often installed with air pockets that tend to fill with water.

   As someone stated above, dry install pavers are much easier to work with. They can be installed over a granular substrate. I like undisturbed or compacted soil, covered with ~4" of ABC gravel (also called crush & run). ABC is 3 sizes of gravel combined - fines, + 1/2" + ~1" - it compacts very well - it is what they use for road beds. To make an extra firm base, mix mortar, or a small amount of Portland cement with the ABC - dry. The ABC is then covered with ~1" of gravel fines (like sand - but compacts better). A few tips are - plan on renting a vibratory plate compactor to compact each layer of the substrate, and to "shake down" the newly installed pavers. Also, dry install pavers require a hard perimeter on the surface being created - to hold the edges in place - there are plastic and metal edging material made for this purpose. PT lumber can be used, but my favorite is concrete. If possible, plan any paver project so as to require as little cutting as possible. If there is a lot of cutting, you may need to rent a diamond blade wet saw, buy a dry diamond blade for your circular saw, or, get a paver splitter - which is kind of like a guiteen (sp?) with a lever/handle that you use to force the blade down on the brick with. A poor substitute is an abrasive blade in your circular saw, They sell the abrasive blades in 6 packs for about $14 US - there is a message here!

   Good Luck, and have fun!!

1. 
   Guest_ | Nov 09, 1999 07:46am | #6

   *Asphalt is the driveway of choice here. But we also have stamped concrete, brick pavers, concrete, crushed stone, oyster shell, quahog shell, gravel, and peastone.If we're doing a crushed stone or peastone we make sure we're not going to have any trapped water (good drainage) and we put down a base of 12" bank run gravel. Either let it sit for the winter or we compact it and then top it with 2"-3" stone. Our drive is about a 125' with a small grade, no mud, no puddles. Had to top it once in 14 years. So one secret to success is a good base.On another note: modular brick pavers are different than solid brick pavers. The "modular" part means that two are as wide as one is long so you can lay them in any pattern without the gaps that you get from conventional brick pavers. The bricks with holes in them are just bricks with holes in them. As you said earlier, brick pavers are fired different from regular bricks and they are designed to survive a freeze-thaw cycle. You can lay them in a sand bed, a tennis court-type clay bed, a gravel bed, or on a concrete base. The better the compaction, the easier the job. If we're cutting brick for paving we rent a wet saw and have at it.Weed control is important under any paving, but I wouldn't use a fabric. You have to make sure there are no roots left, especially from somethings like the bamboo family, and dandelions, those type roots will push thru 6" of asphalt. Especially watch for dormant weeds and roots, like laying asphalt on an insufficient base in the fall, come back in the spring and there will be big blisters. If you cut one of the blisters open you will find a root growing to daylight.As far as brick and weeds go, the weeds filter in from the top, and get in the joints and then grow. the only control is heavey traffic or weed sprays.

1. 
   Guest_ | Nov 09, 1999 09:02am | #7

   *Mike:Good info about weed control. I didn't know that it was so criticle to get rid of all root material.Please check your definition of modular brick pavers. Here is a place to start. Look at the chart about 3/4 of the way down the page.Thanks.

1. 
   Guest_ | Nov 09, 1999 06:00pm | #8

   *Can't figure that one out. Around here, modular, in pavers, means that they lay in squares, two are as wide as one is long, so you can lay them basket-weave, or herring-bone and your pattern won't run off. If you use conventional sized brick, you either have to gap them, or you lose your pattern, so the only one you can lay is a running bond. Running bond is more traditional so they like to use a very traditional looking brick, the favorite is "Boston City Hall", if you want to lay tight patterns, then we have more to chose from and you can use either chamfered, or square cut or wire cut.I guess "modular" may have a significance that I missed. I always assumed that "module" in construction meant the unit of measurement the designer laid out on. Such as a four foot module. In the case of bricks, the "module" would be the width for pavers,thus 2 bricks wide = 1 brick long.When I checked the tables in your example that didn't seem to be the case.

1. 
   Guest_ | Nov 10, 1999 06:37am | #9

   *Mike:Sorry to correct you. Maybe it's a reagional lingo type of thing. Sometimes slang becomes the accepted definition - for example all masons around here that I have met call quoin corners "corn corners". Another example is the terms "slope" and "pitch" - a 6 12 roof actually has a slope of 6" rise for a 12" run, whereas the pitch is the relationship between the height and the width - or at least that is what I learned in the general contractors class I took. Modular brick -------------- Nominal Size* 4 x 8 x 2 2/3 Actual (Spec Size)* 3 5/8 x 7 5/8 x ~2 1/4" * = W x L x H in inchesModular brick are ones that stack up (with 3, 3/8" mortar joints), 3 courses = 8" or the height of 1 cinder block (CMU) - which is actually 7 5/8" tall + the 3/8" mortar joint = 8". The width of the face of 2 modular bricks (with 2 3/8 mortar joints) = 16" or the length of a standard CMU (15 5/8" + 3/8" mortar joint). The width of modular brick is 4" nominal and 3 5/8" actual. Likewise, modular pavers mortar into 8" squares, or the 8" module. There nominal size is 4" x 8" x ~2 1/4" thick.In reality, the actual size of bricks vary slightly as some distort during the firing process.I think the real question is: Are modular brick motared in or motarless? For more info see Brick Institute of America technical documents. Read Documents 10a and 10b. "Brick Sizes". The PDF documents may be easier to read than the standard HTML docs - my browser has trouble displaying the diagrams on the HTML doc.

2. 
   Guest_ | Nov 08, 1999 04:06pm | #2

   *JB,I love brick in drives. The problem is installation. If on sand or a mortar bed eventully they will settle and crack this will form channels and puddles. Actully this looks good in my opinion. If you want a true surface pour concrete and then mortar pavers on top. I have had people put brick on top when the right paver wasnt available.Rick Tuk

5. 
   J.B._ | Jan 04, 2000 11:30pm | #10

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   I'm putting in a new driveway and want a hard surface---right now i have pea-gravel and dirt....it's a muddy nightmare in rain, snow, ice, grows weeds all summer and just plain looks awful. I don't like black-top, so i'm looking at cement or brick. I've been told there's a difference btwn "brick" and "pavers" and that brick is stronger, more durable....i grew up in a colonial w/ brick all over the place and many things fell apart on that house, but not the brick, so i tend to believe it is very durable. I like the look of brick, but the installation cost will be much higher than if i pour a cement driveway.....and all the cement driveways i've seen crack alot from freezing/thawing and water damage, but some people swear by it. Opinions/comments?? Thanks in advance! ;)