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Discussion Forum

Dropping like flies

remodelman | Posted in Business on October 2, 2008 02:04am

I’m sure there have been a few posts related to this lately, but I haven’t been here for a while. My apologies if I’m beating a dead horse.

My prospects are dropping like flies. I’ve just past my first year in self-employment, and have enjoyed a full schedule of good jobs and great clients…until now. I had two good prospects for decent sized jobs that would get me through the winter bail on me in the last week. They are stressed, as everyone is, with the state of the economy. I’m in Charlotte, so the news about Wachovia was the grand slam, and at least in my world, everyone seems to be on hold for the moment.

I have fantastic references, great jobs for a portfolio, and good prices. I haven’t done any marketing yet, and I plan to, but can any amount of marketing overcome a seemingly dead(or sleeping) market? Even if it can I probably can’t afford it as I don’t have a credit line and only enough in savings to pay the bills for a couple of months.

I’m prepared to go back to doing handyman and repair work if necessary, or looking for a job, but not looking forward to it and not even sure I could land a comparable paying job right now.

Stressful times…for me at least.

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Replies

  1. Jim_Allen | Oct 02, 2008 02:13am | #1

    You should have been marketing heavily when you were busy.

  2. User avater
    Dinosaur | Oct 02, 2008 02:23am | #2

    Same thing is happening up here; money panic is wafting north across the border and people are sitting on their wallets even tho there's nothing wrong with the Canadian economy. This has been the slowest season for me in 13 years.

    I just had a client who earns $1million+ per annum postpone a $500 job 'until things get a little better'. And I'm waiting on the go ahead for a $7000 flooring job that was a signed deal (with deposit paid!) a month ago but is now on hold while the client 'searches for an alternate flooring material.'

    The 'experts' say it will blow over in about a year. What they don't say is that it will only blow over if people believe them when they say it will. This financial crisis is 98% perceptual. But that doesn't make it less real.

    Dinosaur

    How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
    low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
    foolish men call Justice....

  3. MikeSmith | Oct 02, 2008 02:29am | #3

    remodelman.... i've been in business since  '75... every decade had a recession / depression

     

    it was very tough   ....especially the late '80's... so far we ain't there yet

    take what you can get...but don't cut your margins... you are better off flipping burgers than working at a loss

    Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
    1. remodelman | Oct 02, 2008 02:54am | #4

      I agree with that. If I'm gonna be broke, I'd rather fish than work for free.

    2. Ohiosawman | Oct 02, 2008 03:19am | #5

      Hey, lets just hope that socialist Obama doesn't win, the unemployment rate, interests rates, inflation, gas line, etc. of Carter will be a joy compared to a someone so liberal he makes Ted Kennedy look moderate.This whole credit issue with the market started with the Clinton administration changing the guidelines on the Community Reinvestment Act and starting the ball rolling on the sub prime avalanche that was to come. The Fannie Mae put all the toxic mortgages where people did not need to provide proof of a job, credit rating, nothing. And of course there was Obama, the favorite senator of Fannie Mae, he received over $140,000 in his short three years in the senate (think they bought him or what). And what a surprise that, as the Washington post reported one of his advisers on "housing policy" is Franklin Raines the former CEO of Fannie Mae and recipient of $90 million dollars of money for just five years of theft. He was forced to resign in disgrace for cooking the books to massively increase his bonus'.Then you have Obama's hand picked person to lead the search for his VP, that man is Jim Johnson, the former CEO of Fannie Mae before Raines and also a person neck deep in creating this mess.They just empaneled a grand jury to investigate Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers (another huge contributor to Obama, over $370k) http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638All that unless Obama gets in then he controls the justice department and he'll make it all go away for his criminal friends. Maybe they can get together for coffee with Obama's other criminal friends like William Ayers, the terrorist who bombed the pentagon and proudly hates America. I still wonder why Obama started his political career in the mid 90's at a fundraiser at Ayers home. http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/902213,CST-NWS-ayers18.articleYou know he loves America just like his good friend William Ayers, here's his friend standing on the American Flag http://ace.mu.nu/archives/261684.php

      1. User avater
        deadmanmike | Oct 02, 2008 03:25am | #6

        And so goes yet another thread down the political toilet.

      2. User avater
        JeffBuck | Oct 02, 2008 03:31am | #7

        take the #### to the toilet ...

         I mean the tavern.

         

        This is the business folder.

        Jeff    Buck Construction

         Artistry In Carpentry

             Pittsburgh Pa

        1. Ohiosawman | Oct 02, 2008 04:07am | #9

          Information is a problem here?I stated facts and provided the supporting links, how is that inflammatory?

          1. Svenny | Oct 02, 2008 04:17am | #11

            You don't understand.Polital talk goes to the Tavern. Period. Doesn't matter if your right or left, that's where it goes.If you don't have access to the Tavern, get it, stuff flies there thick as can be. You'll love exchanging facts and links there. Links are very popular in the Tavern.John Svenson, builder,  remodeler,  NE Ohio

          2. Ohiosawman | Oct 02, 2008 04:24am | #13

            ok, thanks.I hope you guys found the information helpful though.

          3. remodelman | Oct 02, 2008 04:27am | #14

            Yeah, it was very informative. I posted this here to avoid political ####. This is a real life folder.

          4. Svenny | Oct 02, 2008 04:29am | #16

            No problemo!We now return to our regularly scheduled program!John Svenson, builder,  remodeler,  NE Ohio

          5. Huntdoctor | Oct 02, 2008 04:52am | #20

            I won't suggest anyone ignoring you in the Tavern.

            :)

            Russell

            "Welcome to my world"

          6. husbandman | Oct 02, 2008 08:29pm | #24

            That post contained some good humor, as well as good advice! < G >

        2. Huntdoctor | Oct 02, 2008 04:12am | #10

          Maybe if we all ignore him he will go away.

          Russell

          "Welcome to my world"

        3. rv10 | Oct 03, 2008 01:47am | #34

          Thanks we needed that.

      3. Jim_Allen | Oct 02, 2008 04:49am | #19

        Is it just me or has the main stream media been avoiding digging out the dirt on this latest Wall street scandal in order to protect the Dems in the upcoming election?

      4. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Oct 02, 2008 08:10pm | #23

        As a new guy here, it would be wise of you to observe how this forum operates, before putting your political opinions in print. 

        Be advised that there is a "hidden folder", called The Tavern.  That's where all manner of topics are hashed out, politics in particular. 

        To gain access to that folder look for a topic labeled "tavern access" under the General Discussion folder.  It may be on the second or third page today.

         

      5. Norman | Oct 02, 2008 09:46pm | #28

        re: "that socialist Obama"

        I find it real hard to believe that all the Rockefellers, Pritzkers and other capitalist fat cats would back a socialist. You are repeating a Rovian swift boat type slander with no basis in fact. A massive whisper campaign has been created to repeat the lies that folks are afraid to make for attribution.

         

        1. Ohiosawman | Oct 02, 2008 11:29pm | #29

          You were saying?http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=302827467707515Don't you find it troubling, the people obama has as friends and mentors? William Ayers, Frank Marshall Davis, his spiritual mentor Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Tony Rezko, Frannie Mae crooks, etc. Are you friends or do you have a priest that claims the USA invited AIDS to kill black people, deserved 9/11, etc. Are you friends with former convicted felons like Rezko or domestic terrorists like Bill Ayers who is thrilled he bombed this country? Bill Ayers hates this country so much, his wedding ring is made from air planes that the Viet Cong shot down in the Vietnam war. I'm sorry I don't know anyoe like those people.It's very naive to believe The rockefellers, pritzkers, etc are capitalists, they have family money that they never had to earn, it was given to them. And why be surprised the wealthy people are very liberal, look at the wealthiest places, Manhattan, north suburbs of LA (beverly hills, brentwood, malibu, SF, CT, etc. they are all very liberal areas. Where are the most conservative republican areas? The working class areas in the midwest and down south.Btw, penny pritzker, obama's national finance chair, ran a chicago bank superior bank that was very involved in the sub prime mortgage business and her family agreed to a fine of over $400 million to the government for her illegal activities. The bank was seized in 2001 by the government to protect the deposits.Edited 10/2/2008 4:42 pm ET by Ohiosawman

          Edited 10/2/2008 4:49 pm ET by Ohiosawman

          1. remodelman | Oct 03, 2008 12:35am | #30

            Get out of my post. Take it to the f'ing tavern and don't come back.

          2. remodelman | Oct 03, 2008 12:42am | #31

            I'm feeling somewhat better today. I made a few calls and at least have some back up work at my disposal doing punch work and repairs. It's not what I want to do, but I did it for years and it's pretty good money. I have a couple of solid contacts in the industry, so I'm feeling like I can at least weather the storm for the time being.
            I also talked to the employee today at lunch and laid it out plain and simple. Told him that I would do my very best to keep us both busy and paid, but things will likely be different for a while-may have to make him hourly, may have to drive farther, etc. He took it in stride, and seemed relieved that I wasn't giving it up for good. We'll adjust, probably get dirty as hell and have sore backs, but hopefully come through it in the end.
            Thanks for all of the insight and encouragement. It is greatly appreciated.

          3. Ohiosawman | Oct 04, 2008 12:48am | #42

            Maybe try decaf, huh? I simply replied the someones post. I didn't know you controlled all the content in the thread. A parallel conversation didn't distract from you issues, in fact it probably keeps it at the top of the list more often.Lighten up. Thought you boys down south had southern hospitality. You should come out to the midwest and get some fresh air.

            Edited 10/3/2008 5:55 pm ET by Ohiosawman

          4. remodelman | Oct 04, 2008 01:15am | #43

            I am very light actually, and have a lot of southern hospitality, and I even like to talk politics, but this isn't the place, and your posts weren't relevant to the conversation no matter what you may think. I think everyone has made that very clear. Ya'll have a good day now, hear, and don't come back.

          5. bobbys | Oct 04, 2008 04:50am | #44

            Im soitionly no spokesman here nor know remodelman but what happens if it gets political they move the thread to the tavern or just remove it so he would have a reason to get upset, again just go to the tavern where you can tawk all you want on other subjects.

          6. Ohiosawman | Oct 04, 2008 10:44pm | #46

            Cool. Your manners are much more pleasant.

          7. Svenny | Oct 04, 2008 11:04pm | #47

            BTWDon't raise your expectations for "manners" in the Tavern.Oh, and as far as manners go, lower your expectations in this area as well if the topic turns to roof venting, vapor barriers, drywall screws, shellac, and a myriad of other subjects prone to "professional disagreements"John Svenson, builder,  remodeler,  NE Ohio

          8. User avater
            Dinosaur | Oct 03, 2008 12:52am | #32

            What part of 'not here' didn't you understand?

            Political opinion is not welcome outside the Woodshed Tavern folder. If you keep posting that stuff in this thread, the mods will move the whole thread down there or delete it entirely.

            If you wanted to be polite, as a newcomer to this forum, you'd go back and delete your posts from this thread. Then, when you are granted access (takes a day or so after you post a request in the thread I linked to above), you can post them in the Tavern.

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          9. bobbys | Oct 03, 2008 01:31am | #33

            Its not personal go to the tavern with political stuff please. when i first came here i misspoke and was directed on how things work.

          10. catfish | Oct 03, 2008 03:58am | #35

            Does someone need to explain the tavern in Spanish?  SE habla englais?

          11. User avater
            bstcrpntr | Oct 03, 2008 05:03am | #36

            Had the next few months lined out very nicely.  I was actually looking forward to the cold weather coming because I had two "nice" jobs lined up for the winter.  They were good enough that I was gonna hire one more carpenter for the winter.

            Two weeks ago I got a call and they cancelled the whole house interior remodel that was on the books.  I gave this customer back his deposit since he is my girlfriends brother.

            Yesterday I got a call that cancelled the pole barn to house project that was supposed to start on the 4th of October.  These people said they knew they lost their deposit and would call me if harvest was any good this year, if not would try to do something in spring.

            We have basically became framers and siders here in southern Illinois.  Was hoping to get away from that for the winter but those jobs do seem to keep coming up.  I have 4 siding jobs to bid, some for owners and some for other contractors.

            I started about a year ago myself, things have been good and I am well known in my area.  I do not expect to fold up, but I would say that GOOD prospects are dropping off and the jobs that help me survive are still there.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.   

              "IdahoDon  1/31/07"

    3. jc21 | Oct 02, 2008 04:20am | #12

      How did you survive? ......... or actually what did you do to survive?

      "The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery" Sir Winston Churchill

      1. Svenny | Oct 02, 2008 04:41am | #17

        I've been self employed for 35 years (my first year as a 1099 sub was 1973!) That was a tough time, but I was young, dumb and willing to take on almost any kind of job.The late 80's and early 90's were tough on me, and I paid dearly in the mid to late 90's for my mistakes during this period.I survived, but survival isn't necessarily the best thing. I would have been better off in the long run had I cut my losses and tried something alternative like work for someone else, or do the hard thing and lay off employees and become a one man operation till the dust settled.I'm doing OK now, but I'm paying off my house for the third time and hoping I get some kind of supplement to Social Security built up before I retire.John Svenson, builder,  remodeler,  NE Ohio

        1. remodelman | Oct 02, 2008 04:45am | #18

          I have one employee, and am painfully starting to think about how bad it needs to get before I let him go. Obviously, if I'm paying him and not myself it's too far, but is it worth it to suffer through a (hopefully) short period of losses to keep a good employee? I'm not actually there yet, but my worst case scenario brain is already there.

          1. robert | Oct 03, 2008 05:19pm | #40

            If you have nothing for him,

            I understand the feeling of wanting to take care of him if he was a good employee.

            But

            When the handwritting is one the wall....................................

            Let him go, pay him for an extra week and be sincere about how unpleasant it is to do.

            That way:

            a. you're honest with him.

            b. He can look for something else while there may still be something out there or before all the good alternative jobs are snatched up.

            c. If you stay in touch and genuinely care how he's doing AND it was a good working relationship you may be bale to get himmback when things get better.

            Just a thought. He's not stupid and he's probably worrying about when It's going to happen just as much as you're worrying about when you will have to do it.

          2. remodelman | Oct 04, 2008 12:10am | #41

            It wouldn't be a surprise to him if we got to that point. We work together every day and I include him in most of the company decisions, so he would know it was coming well in advance and I'd help him get another job. I really don't want that to happen, and he's willing to do what needs to be done to keep that from happening. We'll get through it, but I'm having to adjust my views of what ideal jobs are. I've been very lucky for the last year, so this won't kill me, but it does bum me out since I had some great momentum building. Some good news may be the Wells Fargo buyout of Wachovia, which will potentially leave many more jobs in town than the citibank buyout. Hopefully the phone will start to ring again soon, but there's still a lot of uncertainty in this city right now.

            Edited 10/3/2008 5:10 pm ET by remodelman

        2. jc21 | Oct 04, 2008 11:09pm | #48

          My hat is off to you and Mike too- you're still standing. I'm not so sure going to work for others is the answer. Any business, large or small, has it's ups and downs and you are still here. Me, I took the path of least resistance and at 55 I have little to show for it financially. I've for the most part worked for others. Companies fold, people get laid off. The headaches for the most part belong to the company but when the rewards are there, the majority of the rewards go to the company which is as it should be-they take the risk. Not sure what's comin' down the pike in the future  but I hope yours and Mike's cups runneth over.

          "The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery" Sir Winston Churchill

          1. Svenny | Oct 05, 2008 01:34am | #49

            Thank you for the kind words.John Svenson, builder,  remodeler,  NE Ohio

      2. MikeSmith | Oct 02, 2008 02:00pm | #22

        always just muddled thru...until bottomed out in '89 or so... got a prevailing wage job for me and my lead man, doing demo on some public housing in Providence for about 6 months
        good paychecks...no overheadMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  4. DanT | Oct 02, 2008 03:41am | #8

    I just lost a small kitchen this week.  Nice lady, said with everything going on economically she thought she had better wait for better times.  DanT

    1. Marson | Oct 02, 2008 04:29am | #15

      That kind of stuff really scares me. It's not the stock market or the investment bank failures that will bring us a recession, it's peoples perceptions of the economy. And they seem very dismal at the moment. Worse than I can remember back to October 1987. I'm lucky so far. I work for an outfit that builds/remodels affordable houses. So far, our houses have been still selling well, though what this latest little panic will do, I don't know. We closed one today, but of course that deal was in the works for quite awhile.The subs are really hurting. An electrician just about cried today when I told him he missed a bid by 100 bucks. These were the guys you had to beg to show up a few years ago.We are hoping to start remodelling two apartment buildings for homeless vets. If we can get that, that will hopefully insulate me from the market for a year or so.

  5. Bowz | Oct 02, 2008 05:59am | #21

    Yes, Saturday I got a call canceling a deck, patio door, and four windows, when the call should have been to arrange signing the paperwork and collecting the down payment. (they said they'd think about it again in spring)

    There also hasn't been the rush of phone calls after labor day that usually happens because summer vacations are over,  "And all this stuff need sto get done before winter" Most calls have been for repairs and maintenance. Got feelers out on two basements, lost a good sized addition that is getting built, but no projects that will make for pretty pictures in the photo album.

    But I must say there are more jobs on the board this year than there were the same time last year. probably a little less volume though.

    Bowz

  6. husbandman | Oct 02, 2008 08:38pm | #25

    Cut back now.

    DW and I are in the real estate business now and in our locale we should be having the best sales of the year. Instead, deals are dieing and new offers are not being made. It's a good thing we branched out into property management a couple of years ago.

    Looks like I'm going back into construction to weather the storm. At least we have other skills to fall back on. But, falling back gets a little harder as you get older. < G >

    I've seen three seriously bad market periods in certain times and places (when I was in construction). Like others here said, just keep working and prepare for total personal flexibility.

    Best of luck!

  7. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Oct 02, 2008 08:42pm | #26

    I'm prepared to go back to doing handyman and repair work if necessary, or looking for a job, but not looking forward to it and not even sure I could land a comparable paying job right now.

    One of my biggest mistakes in life was getting too exclusive about the kinds of work I would do.  If I'd learned how to roll with the punches, early on, and come back quickly, I'd have made out a lot better, financially and personally.

    After one long renovation job for a difficult client I swore off of that kind of work, focusing exclusively on new homes.  When that business dried up I wasn't prepared to expand my horizons again. 

    I survived but it was more painful than it had to be...if I'd been flexible about what I did and how far I'd travel to do it.

    So my remedy is; to look at every disappointment as an opportunity to expand my horizons, learn something new and become more adept at coping with life. 

    See it, accept it, learn what I can and move on with renewed enthusiasm for the next adventure. 

    Dwelling on the past, good or bad, is counterproductive to coping.  There will be time to contemplate all that when a new business model is in place and running profitably.

      

  8. frenchy | Oct 02, 2008 09:17pm | #27

    remodelman

     I started to see the effects in 2006.  my contractors who had months of work backlogged began to run out of work, by the spring of 2007 things were full blown and I was laid off (with all the others selling telehandlers in my company)  by labor day of 2007.

     I've now been out of work for over a year and in that period in spite of diligence  seeking employment I haven't found a single lead in my industry.
    In fact when I seek employment in fields related I become lost among the hundreds sometimes a thousand or more applicants

     New home construction started to end in the fall of 2006 and the effects are filtering down through the remodeling industry since then. Some contractors survived moving into remodeling and a lot of them are out seeking other employment..

     

      

  9. User avater
    G80104 | Oct 03, 2008 05:32am | #37

    Hope work comes your way!

    In my younger years we hit some dry times! But we always found work even if it was loading hay on semi trailers.

    Hope you have been checking Craigs list in your area? Around here few run adds in the newsprint anymore! 

        Good Luck! & here's the link.......

    http://charlotte.craigslist.org/trd/

    1. User avater
      G80104 | Oct 03, 2008 03:37pm | #38

      Other way we got work in the slow times, we would go to the local building dept once every week or so & get the list of current permits that had been pulled. Then made some Cold calls We had 2 other guys working with us @ the time, were able to pick up enough work to keep us busy.

        Permits that were pulled by owners seemed to produce more work than permits that were pulled by GC's so the homeowner permits got the hard sell!

       

       

      1. jimblodgett | Oct 03, 2008 03:56pm | #39

        A slow period is a great time to invest mental energy in things like your business, your life goals - the plan to reach them, how you got to where you are now and what you might have done differently.

        For example - some business people invest profits in real estate instead of new trucks and vacations in the Bahamas.  Then, when work gets skinny, they invest savings developing that real estate into assets worth far more than they invest.

        Over a period of years, there will always be times when profits are low, regardless of the current economic situation.  The key is to have a way to ride out the slow times - you might be surprised at how much equity you can build working on your own projects, at your own pace, by yourself.  

  10. plumbitup51 | Oct 04, 2008 04:42pm | #45

    Don't undervalue handyman and repair work. It never dries up, and my willingness to do it has been one of my best marketing tools over the years. It's a chance to build a customer base while still making a few bucks, people get to know you and appreciate what you have to offer, and they will remember you when things loosen up again, which they will.

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