Replies

1. 
   artacoma | Oct 10, 2005 02:07am | #1

   Around here all the stucco guys use black building paper 2 layers under the dryvit kind of stuff. The only time I see tyvec any more is under hardli plank or board siding. Also the papering is always put up by the siding/dryvit applicators it's part of their 'system' and needs an inspector sign off before finish coats are applied.

   regards

   Rik

2. 
   Hooker | Oct 10, 2005 02:35am | #2

   Blue-

   By the dryvit application I will assume you mean the finish over foam.  It has been my experience many times, as this application has surpassed traditional stucco in my area a while back, that a polystyrene foam is mechanically applied over housewrap and screwed to the plywood.  On our houses the dryvit installers require 1/2 (min) exterior ply for the wall sheathing. 

   Common practice is to sheath horizontally with blocking at the seams.  That might be an area thing, I don't know.  Housewrap is traditionally a special tyvek made for stucco with a wrinkle that allows drainage behind the foam.  OTOH, some installers are using a special foam that has rain channels kerfed into the back.  Horse apiece. 

   As they apply the foam panels, the installers also take the window taping responsibilities, as it becomes a warranty issue for them.  As long as we install the window and drape the upper fold back over the top flange, as recommended, the foamers do the rest.  Another issue is kickouts at roof eaves along the walls.  This is a good practice anyway, but the importance is magnified with the addition of up to 3 inches of material at the flashing points.  Without a kickout, the water is sure to funnel right down behind.  If our ducks are in a row, we can install these kickouts, which are generally a plastic preformed item, at shingle time.

   Another thing about the windows.  It is important the windows get taped ASAP, for obvious reasons.  We have had this issue recently with water entering where it doesn't belong because the windows weren't taped immediately. 

   Some of this may or may not apply to you or your situation, but hope it helps.

   Another thing.  We generally use 1 1/2 foam exterior with a 1 or 1 1/2 thick band for fascia and rake trim.  It makes for a wonderful job when we can install a drip cap under the soffit F channel, furred out to the trim thickness.  The foam is able to tuck nicely under the cap and eliminate ugly caulk joints at the soffit panels.  That is of course with an aluminum or steel soffit and fascia system.   

   I get paid to do carpentry.  That makes me a professional.

   If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 10, 2005 03:56am | #4

   Hooker, I intend to run the osb horizontally, but I don't intend to block all joints. I will verify that this is acceptable with Dryvit.

   Thanks for the warning regarding the window wrap. I've printed out several of their spec sheets and will go over this with Mr Homeowner tomorrow. I will point out that the dryvit installer should probably do the window wrap as I don't want to involve myself in a window leak situation and have to do the "it's their fault" routine.

   Thanks, this is exactly the type of info that I seek.

   This job will have 3' overhangs on a 1/4 frieze. I intend to block out the frieze enough so that the dryvit tucks behind it.

   I don't know what  a kickout is. I didn't see that on the dryvit website. It's probably a local term.

   I think I'll investigate the Tyvek Stucco wrap. I've got a few weeks to figure out what the wrap will be.

   blue 

1. 
   Hooker | Oct 10, 2005 04:08am | #6

   Blue-

   I refer to the kickout as a method of keeping water from following the step flashing at the roof wall intersection to funnelling behind the foam and down the wall.  Generally meant to "kick" the water away from the wall and into the gutter system.  I could actually post some pics tomorrow night, since the house I'm working in is currently having dryvit applied.  I'll put my camera in the truck tonight.

   I'm not totally sure, but the companies around here require plywood instead of osb.  Could be a local thing. 

   Check out Tyvek's Stucco wrap.  Comes in a roll about 5 feet tall by 100 or so.  Performs same as Tyvek, just has the drain lines for stucco applications.I get paid to do carpentry.  That makes me a professional.

   If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?

1. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 10, 2005 04:12am | #8

   EIFS and stucco are two different animals, stucco breathes, EIFS doesn't, that kick fkashing is one of many special techniques for EIFS

   http://www.shelladditions.com

   Edited 10/9/2005 9:15 pm ET by shellbuilder

1. 
   Hooker | Oct 10, 2005 04:26am | #9

   You are correct.  I consider kickout flashing an important part of any houses moisture control defense.  Whenever, wherever possible they get installed.

   If I am not mistaken, Dryvit is a product of an EIFS exterior system.  I tend to use "stucco" as a generic term.  Like "kleenex".I get paid to do carpentry.  That makes me a professional.

   If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?

3. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 10, 2005 02:40am | #3

   Dryvit is a product that has had many problems mostly regarding window and door applications and penetrations. If I were you , I would not get involved in any choices for the selection of products that are to be used, i.e. windows , doors, flashings, housewraps, deck attachments, etc. You should have the Dryvit company give you all recomended procedures for installation of any and all products to be used along with this application. There have been thousands of EIFS failures in the mid atlantic and I have done many replacemnt jobs running over 100,000.00  Also yu may want to contact or read your G.L. policy, mine strictly forbids coverage with EIFS products. This is a huge risk, the product is research intense and there are very few proven performong jobs out there.

   http://www.shelladditions.com

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 10, 2005 03:59am | #5

   Thanks for the heads up shellbuilder.

   Since I'm not the Dryvit installer (he's using a commercial firm that specializes in it), I think I'll defer any product selection's to them and I'll do my best to have them put them on.

   I'm especially concerned about trapping moisture. The Dryvit site warns that moisture can be trapped but they don't elaborate and explain the where/what/why's.

   blue 

1. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 10, 2005 04:09am | #7

   I kinow you're not installing, the problem is all the products you select that touch this system, papers, windows and doors all need to be intefrated to the product to "drain" outboard of the EIFS. Anything you suggest or do without the blessing of the EIFS applicator could land you in the court system. Frankly, unless it was a doghouse that I didn;t want 3 years from now i wouldn't bother using EIFS anywhere. EVERYTHING on the exterior wall has a certain quirk when used with this product. So you put all your faith in "plasterers" decisions regarding window flashing details, roof flashing details, etcetera. BE CAREFUL and GOOGLE EIFS PROBLEMShttp://www.shelladditions.com

4. 
   stinger | Oct 10, 2005 05:21am | #10

   It's all in the flashing, Blue.  Water management is everything.  Research "drainage plane."  Find out about the wraps that are like corduroy, and channel the water that may penetrate into potential problem areas, down and out before damage can be done.

   Are you doing the EIFS application, or are you subbing it out?

5. 
   seeyou | Oct 10, 2005 12:59pm | #11

   I got my Dryvit license about 10 years ago (long story, was doing an addition on my tudor house) but, I've never actually touched the stuff. Of 16 hours of class time, I'm guessing nearly 8 was spent on the "kickout".  The devil is in the flashing details on this stuff, especially in a residential setting. I've had to fix lots of flashing leaks on realatively new installations. Distance yourself from the responsibility.

   Birth, school, work, death.....................

6. 
   jrnbj | Oct 11, 2005 04:25am | #12

   Unlike some of the other posters, I actually think Dryvit is a good thing...done right, you get all the low-maintenance that people have gone to Hardiplank for, plus an insulation bonus...
   But, done right also means architectural details like simple roof lines, actual overhangs, porticos at doors, all things that no one wants to spend the money for, as well as good flashing practices...
   It's been many years since I did any Dryvit, so I can't remember the one thing that, if I were in your shoes, I would be concerned about, which is how to position the windows in the rough framing if the customer wants trim & not just the dryvit returned to the window...
   Good luck, mind the details, it'll be fine....

1. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 11, 2005 05:45am | #13

   I agree and any Eifs system can be done correctly. When the EIFS industry wants to provide details to builders regarding exactly what they need based on customer selections then go for it. One mistake with this product is the kiss of death. If you don't put windows and doors in and build a straight box with a 4 fot ovrthang then I don;t see a problemhttp://www.shelladditions.com

7. 
   McFish | Oct 11, 2005 07:36am | #14

       One of my clients bought a house from a contractor who left a large quantity of Dryvit in the basement when he moved.  I used it to texture some interior walls and it looks great!  Yes I know this doesnt help you one bit!

                                                                                                     Tom

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 11, 2005 02:41pm | #15

   All good information peeps!

   Followup: I had my meeting, picked up the check. I've distanced myself from possible leak problems. The EIFS contractor will be designating the house wrap. He wants us to install the windows and housewrap and he will wrap the windows and install all flashings.

   I will create a document that he will sign that states that the wrap and structure is suitable for the EIFS installation. He will be required to field inspect the actual frame before he commences his installation. I will agree to fix anything/everything before he starts and that he should not cover up anything that needs to be corrected.

   We've been using a document like that for our window installations. We got tired of builders calling us back for free consultations because their insulators foamed the windows or their brick layers jacked an entry  door out of level by 3/4" to fit their unlevel brick course (that actually happened).

   blue 

1. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 12, 2005 06:07am | #16

   Good decision, you may want to discuss flashings on windows that need to go in before windows are installed particularly sill flashing that flushes water outboard of th EIFS. Also discuss foundation heights from grade and deck attachments and masonry porch attachments.http://www.shelladditions.com

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 13, 2005 06:20am | #17

   Shellbuilder, I'm way ahead of you. I printed out all the Dryvit specification detail sheets before I me the client.

   I basically talked the client out of a cantilevered deck. I patiently explained how I felt that it was aticking time bomb, but continued to tell him that the Eifs installer would probably have a good way to seal each penetration, but that I just couldn't think of one.

   We discussed the 8" minimum height above grade that Dryvit mandates. The porches will be basement underneath.

   I was thinking of pitching the rough window sill about 5 degrees or so. I intended to do a sill wrap before setting the windows, to through back and water that found it's way in.

   Thanks for the advice.  

1. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 14, 2005 02:35am | #18

   Good luck, I would want the EIFS guys to flash the windows and doors and any and all penetrations. I assume your customer won't research their decision to use EIFS. The problem with sill pan flashing directing any mechanically fastened windows leaking corners to the exterior is this...to allow the water out, you need to allow air in and that would be air allowed around a window....not a good idea!http://www.shelladditions.com

2. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 14, 2005 02:58am | #19

   Dryvit update: The client is dropping the Dryvit! After my conversation, he started giving it all some thought, did a bit of research and decided to use some sort of wood siding!

   No more dryvit!

   blue 

3. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 14, 2005 03:21am | #20

   congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://www.shelladditions.com

4. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 15, 2005 05:13am | #21

   Hold the congrats. The dryvit contractor wants to schedule a meeting with the client. I told the client to do a google search for eifs problems as you suggested.

   blue 

5. 
   shellbuilder | Oct 15, 2005 05:34am | #22

   Did you check your G.L. policy, mine specifically excludes EIFS clad houses and has for the last 5 years. This problem is not new, many G.L won't cover and that may include anything to do with an EIFS house and in fact may be troubling to the lending institution to allow construction without insurability ( is that a word?)http://www.shelladditions.com

6. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Oct 15, 2005 03:46pm | #23

   Wow, that's a thought Shellbuilder. I'll mention the insurance angle to the client and I'll check mine and have him check his.

   blue