I am an owner/builder and will soon need to get drywall bids. I am preparing a drawing and would like suggestions for items/specifications to include in the bid request.
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Replies
Most guys in my area, and there are only a few, charge by the square foot of board consumed. That means if the supplier drops 208 4x12s at your job, and when the walls and ceilings are rocked, 8 full boards are left, you're going to be charged for 9,600 square feet. A per-square-foot price makes it easiest to compare pricing.
Rockers can be more or less conservative in board usage, and a less conservative crew will mean more scrap in the dumpster, which costs you both coming and going, so it is good to at least discuss this. A check with some of the people to which he or she refers is worthwhile.
What level of quality do you want in the hang job? Some rockers just bang it on, without regard to straight walls or ceiling, others will take the time to run around with a staplegun and shims, and then use butthanger-type endjoint shims to minimize the endjoint mud mountains. Think about this, discuss it with all your candidates, and write your spec accordingly.
You should decide on trim and bead types, and specify that, making sure whatever you spec is both right for you, quality and budget-wise, and readily available.
As for mud and finish, you need to examine the specs for levels of finish, and understand clearly what the differences are, for example, between a level 3 and 4 finish. The taper you choose must clearly understand the diff, too. Go to USG's website and drill down into it to find this . . . I believe it is there.
Common in my area, is either single-souce hang-tape-prime, or cafeteria style. If I go a-la-carte, my rocker will hang, his buddy from jailhouse days will tape, and I'll pay two separate bills. Then I'll have my painter prime.
If I sole-source it, one outfit will hang, tape, and prime. One bill, paid per s.f.
For priming, I strongly recommend "Builders Solution" by Sherwin Williams. Absolutely amazing stuff. Goes on with an airless sprayer, large orifice tip, and at first is scary. What frightens you your first time, is that it is going on like heavy cream, something like 25 mils wet (if I recall correctly), and that it looks all rough and lumpy. It still will after a little while into the cure, but an amazing thing happens in the final cure, with it going perfectly flat and tight. A great start for the paint job, and much better than the USG product my rocker likes, which is called First Coat.
A final word from me, and it is about supply and stocking. I have yet to see a drywall contractor that furnishes materials other than screws, so you are likely going to be ordering and seeing to how much goes where. The best guy I ever had in this respect, went room to room and hall to hall throughtout the house, used a large crayon, and marked on door entry jambstuds the count and type per room or area, then tallied it to a sheet, and gave the sheet to the inside guy at the supply house that would deliver and load the house. All board stocks were always specified to be in flat on-the-floor piles. He had trained all his hanging crews to work from flat piles, rather than against-wall leaning stacks, claiming it was best for quality (no curves to the sheets) and hanging efficiency.
Edited 12/26/2006 2:26 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Good points.
Issue also with flat stocking: Less likely pile
will fall over and break legs or worse....
Reputable stockers know how to spread board
and stock ACROSS the joists. Nothing worse than
walking in and looking up at bowed or cracked
joists because of improper stocking!
Mclaren
<A great start for the paint job, and much better than the USG product my rocker likes, which is called First Coat.>You really can't compare Builders Solution and First Coat. Not the same product.USG's Tuff-Hide would be the comparision
Barry E-Remodeler
We know that. But my rocker doesn't. He thinks they do the same thing (FC and BS) and crabs that the extra cost for BS ain't worth it.
Then again, he doesn't have to paint over either.
He needs to know what thickness, for instance 1/2" on walls and 5/8" on cielings.
He needs to know whether you want greenboard in kitchen or bathroom.
In the bathroom, he needs to know where you will use cement board for tile and whether you will install that or want him to. I usually have it on before himm and have him tape it in to the rock.
Point out any places like pocket doors where he needs short screws and glue.
If you are running a plastic VB over the studs, he needs it mmade clear that he is not to let his crew make slits in it and that you want the rock screwed not glued
He needs to know what the scedule is - and you need to keep up your end if it kills you!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
with drywall, you get what you pay for
Maybe, maybe not.Another regional quirk.I can get my rock hung and finished for 30-40% less than the guy I use, but I'd be at the mercy of somebody elses's schedule, not something I relish.
The outfit I use is dependable and sober, with insurance and a calender.
Half the others do as good a job, but have personality quirks and schedule problems
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i've got to hit on what piffin said about vapor barrier.i found my rockers cutting the vapor barrier to " get it so they could see the studs" what the heck, i put it up for a reason. i have been mad at my self for not telling them to pull thier rock down and re do it,or leave. but i didn't and as i write this i'm p.o.'d at myself again. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
>i found my rockers cutting the vapor barrier to " get it so they could see the studs" <
Tell the rockers that staples on vapor barrier usually means there's a wood stud right there.
You just gave me a great idea: I'm giving my plumber a calandar as a late Christmas present!!! :-)
Around here they bid by the board. You can either get it turn key (sub supplies everything) or more normally, the general contractor supplies the board (only) and the sub supplies everything else.
Like Piffin said, you probably need to spec the board thickness and any specific fastening schedule you may require.
The guy I use doesn't charge extra for much, except 5/8 rock, and ceilings over 10'.
Edited 12/31/2006 6:01 pm ET by Matt
"Not trying to be a wise a$$ but I don't know any residential drywall subs who can read plans. If anything they would measure the actual house, but again they just bid by the board anyway."
Because they cant speak English and they dont have WC? They are illegal immigrants but people dont admit that when they work for them?
Tim
All the subs I hire have real tax-id numbers and speak english. Every sub I hire has to have their insurance company supply a certificate of insurance naming my co as the additional insured and stating current WC and $1,000,000 in libility insurance.
So it was just an insult then.
Tim
I use this tool, Matt. My guys don't bother with plans, either.
But then again, I build a house per the plans, so this works for me.View Image
My rocker uses a simpler tool. He just walks around and looks, decides how "typical" things seem, then applies his multiplier, which is usually four (4). Asks, "how many square feet is the house?" then multiplies that times the 4, says "bring in that much board."
It's a little heavy that way, but what the heck, the supplier picks up the excess.
Gene - I have one of those too (mine is gray) and it is what I use for assembling a budget. It gets me within about 20 sheets - not close enough.
I don't getcha' re the >> Asks, "how many square feet is the house?"then multiplies that times the 4 then multiplies that times the 4, says "bring in that much board."<< So, let's say the house has 2000 sq ft to be rocked... 4x2000=8000??? not!!! Maybe divide by 48 = 167??? (48 sq ft per 4x12' board)... closer, but probably not.... Care to expand? Obviously he has some kind of system that works.
On the rare occasion that I have gotten turn key services the guy was able to measure the house with the wheel I linked to earlier and come within 1 or 2 sheets. I can get almost that close... That is close enough to where if there is that much left over, no big deal, and likewise, if I have to run and get 1 or 2 sheets, and maybe even carry them up the stairs (with help), again no big deal.
If you want to get into off the cuff type numbers 2000 sq ft of floor space = 200 sheets, 1500 sq ft = 150 sheets, 3000 sq ft = 300 sheets, etc... Assuming no real high ceilings....
BTW - I always build per plan too...
FYI: A tip for anyone else reading this: using the walk around wheel or the plans scaler you have to be careful. For me, it is better if the house is uncluttered and swept - and I have to carefully roll around the wheel - as opposed as to just blowing through it real quick. Likewise, with the plans scaler you have to be careful when you use it - wrinkled up rained on plans on the hood of the truck doesn't cut it. New plans on a flat table are the way to go... Yes - I have learned these the hard way... :-)
Matt, my guy doesn't buy the materials, he just hangs, and for him, a house all loaded up with 4x12 sheets is his starting point. Not paying for material, not loading it into the house, and not having to deal at all with the return of excess, he prefers to estimate with a broad brush, and a conservative one, so there is no running out to slow him down.
He also does a lot of high ceilinged work, so his factor is a little high.
The last full-house job he did for me was a couple feet short of 3000 sf, and of course we are measuring the real estate way, that means gross area, outside walls to outside walls. Using his factor, we take 3000 x 4 = 12000 sf / 48 sf per 4x12 board = 250 boards.
I measured it with the plan wheel and got 10800 sf and brought in 225 boards, then ran a tiny bit short. The rocker picked up a couple 4x8s on his last morning in when hanging, to finish.
I gotcha ya now... Still that sounds a little low in my experience. Maybe my guys waste more... If they hang the closets last that helps. I don't want any patch work though... These crews I use can hang 200+ sheets in a day so with a typical 2 day turn-around for re-orders, it doesn't work too well to run out by enough for a re-order. They get a little miffed sometimes when they run out. Typically they will leave my job and come back a day or 2 after I call and say the re-ordered board is in the house - enter another two to 5 days of construction delay.... :-( Likewise, in my world, getting the rock order right is the builder's responsibility. Better to have the order a tiny bit low though - then they use it more efficiently. BTW the drywall subs I use have 4 types of crews.... Hangers, cleanup, finishers, and then the point-up/patch-work crews.
Thanks for the replies. I have been out of power since I posted and was busy trying to keep warm. I am asking for turnkey bids. Here is a summary of the job/bid specs so far. I am still working our details on the finish.
1. No drywall nails to be used anywhere.
2. ICF external and load bearing walls with plastic webs available every 6". Webs are ½" under foam. Use 1-5/8" or longer course thread screws only.
3. Interior non-load bearing walls are 20 gauge 3-5/8" x 1¼" steel studs on 24" centers. Wood is used for a double bottom plate, door R/Os, and plant shelf joists and decks. Use 1¼" or longer fine thread screws in steel studs only.
4. First floor ceiling is 12' flat ceiling and has 18 gauge steel C-channel on 12" centers for drywall attachment. Use 1¼" or longer fine thread screws with drill points only.
5. Hang 12' long sheets vertical on first floor to minimize butt joints.
6. Second floor cathedral ceiling has exposed glulam beams 8' on center or less. Lay sheets perpendicular to rafters to eliminate butt joints.
7. All drywall to be 5/8" fire-rated. Green-board in bathrooms, kitchen, and bottom 4' of laundry.
8. All drywall to be stored on site to be flat stacked.
9. First floor to finish with square corners, second floor wall corners to have standard bullnose.
10. Second floor to have owner supplied Squarz-It corner details at baseboard. Datasheet included.
11. Cleanup: Drywall contractor to remove and dispose of all drywall scrap. All taping compound not on installed drywall or masking material will be cleaned and removed.
Others may flame at you for some of your specs, but I won't. I'll just ask this:
What have you done to verify that there are responsible drywall firms in your area capable of quoting this and doing it turnkey?
And here is a comment. For certain types of subcontracted work, when I know I can deal turnkey (materials all included by sub), I will do as careful a material takeoff as I can, and furnish it, "for information only," asking that the sub be responsible for his own takeoff. I make it clear I have only included net actual quantities . . . no scrap or waste factors included. When reviewing bids, I ask how the sub's takeoff compared to mine.
It is worthwhile for me, in that it permits me to gage how seriously a sub has considered the job.
Looks like commercial specs doesn't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"First floor all has 12/0 flat ceilings."
A racquetball club?
Re your Specs, here are a few comments:
If you want glue used, you might want to add something about that.
Regarding moisture resistant drywall, per manf instructions, some is not supposed to be installed on ceilings. Just something to be aware of.
PS: let us know how the bids come in. Sounds like maybe $60 a sheet to me.
If you were to hand me those specs at the first meeting my price is automatic:$2.50 a bd ft with a few stipulations
Barry E-Remodeler
I know plenty of good rockers who will walk over #5 and I don't understand #8 myself.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
#8 would refer to having the boards stocked laying flat on the floor rather than leaning against walls. This presents several problems:
- You end up tripping over the pile, especially when hanging the ceiling sheets, abd damage the edges of all the sheets.
- If the stacks are too high (which they usually are) they can damage floor trusses or I-joists. If you're going to spec flat-stack, you'd better spec properly supporting the load from underneath as well. The drywall suppliers in Vegas used to put adjustable post jacks with T-shaped heads under the stacks to support the load. I saw several floors with instant bows created in the trusses because the stacks weren't properly supported and sat for too long.
And I agree with you on #5- while it does eliminate butts, it also creates A LOT more LF of taping to do, and all of those vertical joints stick out like a sore thumb when the sun hits them. I've yet to see a commercial job (where everything is stood up) look decent in sunlight unless it was spec'd for a level 5 finish.
Bob
Yeah, I knew WHAT #* was - I just can't think of a reason for specing it and several reasons why it would be bad, most of which you pointed out. Another is that it would slow progress. I can see specing things that will affect the quality of the job, but something like that seems nonsense while driving good subs away and/or running the cost higher. besides, it ignores the principle that with subs, you do not tell them how to work, just what you want the end product to be. Same on the butt joint/verticle hung thing - a spec should detail what defelction a finished surface is allowed to have, and let the sub figure how he is going to meet the spec.I noticed this OP iis an engineer so that explains a lot.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
some guys are picking a little on your specs.i'm looking at them and i'm not sure most of them aren't worth mentioning to the sub if thats what you want and will pay accordingly.heres my thoughts, #1 i don't know any rockers that would fully nail anymore,but alot of them will pound a few while hanging just to tack the sheet,then have a helper come along and screw it,if you don't want that tell them,of course when they get to the metal studs and ceiling joist won't be any questions about it.#2 do you want your rock screwed on every 6" wed or 12",16"?.#3 if you spec 12' like that i think your going to have a BIG pile of scrap.i'd let them decide what they want to hang,they will hang with the least joints possible anyway if they are finishing.other than letting them stack it however they want to work around it i think every thing else is fine. i guess i come from i built my house and the only thing i hired was the sheetrock,biggest,next to highest co.in town and within 60 days every joint had cracked,i could've done better than that! tell em what you want and get the checkbook out and be happy! larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 1/1/2007 10:17 pm by alwaysoverbudget