A drywall contractor I hired just finished a ceiling job. New rock over beams and joists with a skip-trowel texture.
Cleanup was not specifically addressed in the bid / estimate. However, the guy left about 25 scrap pieces of sheetrock (quarter to half sheets in size) on the jobsite as well as a couple of empty boxes of dry compund mix and soda cans.
When I pay a professional to do work, how much clean-up should I reasonably expect him to do? I think it ought to be hauling away the extra rock and other materials.
Also, when I primer white over the ceiling, should any seams be visible at all? My expectaion is that you not see where any underlying seam exists. Reasonable?
Thanks in advance.
Replies
I'm always specific about haul away of debris. I charge based on the amount of debris, and work involved in loading it. Sometimes the customer will put smaller things out for the garbageman, so they don't want to pay the up charge.
Either way, I always clean up small stuff. It only takes a few minutes to sweep up, and put all the small stuff in a contractor bag. If I'm leaving the trash, I always ask the customer where they want me to leave it.
Unfortunately, you can't assume anything. You should have made it clear before agreeing on the contract.
You shouldn't be able to see any seams in the drywall, no matter what finish it has.
Edited 5/29/2005 7:46 pm ET by dustinf
Depends on whats in the contract as to how the trash is handled. Most subs if there is no dumpster available will make a pile of trash that the contracor gets to handle, unless it is spelled out in the contract that they have to handle debris.
As for seeing the joints when you prime, chances are you will notice them when you prime it the first time since the mud and the board soak up differents amounts of paint. Did you use a primer designed for new drywall?
If the drywaller has not been paid in full, I would say your still in the drivers seat. Give them a call & ask them to clean -up. I don't think thats to much to ask.
You should also not be able to see any seams after primer.
When I hire a drywaller here, it's extra if they haul the scraps off, but they do have to leave the inside of the job like it was when they got there...well except for the ceilings and walls. And I'd love to see a job that didn't need some point up...that was part of their bid, too, wasn't it?<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Primer is Zinsser Bullseye 1-2-3. Manufacturer website rates is "excellent" for use on new drywall / joint compound.
As for cleanup, I'm just a homeowner, so yes I'd expect the room to be left in generally the same condition as before the work started. I ended up hauling off the scrap pieces, joint compound boxes and the rest of the sub's garbage myself. Not a big deal - just 30 minutes of extra work that I think he should have done.
"Should have been spelled out in the estimate" doesn't really work for me. If you hire me to install a car stereo, I'll install it, and leave your car in the same condition as when you gave me the job. No scrap wires, packaging, soda cans or my left-over lunch littering your car. It's a sign of professionalism to do it that way and unfortunately seems to be disappearing these days.
Thanks to all who provided info on this topic.
"Should have been spelled out in the estimate" doesn't really work for me. If you hire me to install a car stereo, I'll install it, and leave your car in the same condition as when you gave me the job. No scrap wires, packaging, soda cans or my left-over lunch littering your car. It's a sign of professionalism to do it that way and unfortunately seems to be disappearing these days."
The hauling of big garbage should be specified in the contract, there can be major expense involved. There is no excuse for the small stuff being left lay around. It should be put in a garbage bag, hauled away, or left with the big stuff.
BTW, Zinser is very good primer. If you paint the ceiling with a flat paint after the prime coat the defects will be less obvious. That said, the seams should be invisible with any sheen paint. I'd call the finisher to have some service work done.
When signing a contract you need to be sure everything you expect to be done is in the contract(i.e. screwed drywall instead of nailed, any type of texture finish vs flat ceiling, broom swept vs total cleanup of dust etc.
Anything not in the contract i.e. hauling trash is extra. Granted all the trash should be placed in a designated area (dumpster or neat pile) but unless the contract specifies trash to be removed by contractor or each individual sub you can expect to be stuck with it.
My gut feeling as to the people you hired is that you chose the cheapest bid when looking for someone to do the work for you.
Unfortunately is the world of contracting most times you get what you paid for.
On the joints showing they are responsible for fixing them.
This clean up thing by subs, for me, seems to vary in my area.
Several homes ago, I finally had to put it in the contract with all subs that they leave little or no trace of themselves when they're done..
The worst offenders were electricians and plumbers.
Oddly enough, the DW guys around here haul off their scrap, paper the floors before tape and texture, and leave the floors....and even my scaffold planks in good shape. I've never had to ask them to.
Tile layers just LOVE to come in to grout a layed floor or countertop and find wire trimmings scattered in the grout joints.
It's all about professionalism, IMO, but some people are indifferent. They leave their wilderness camps messy, too.
We provide the dumpster; they provide the clean up. This is stated in the contract. If you haven't paid him tell him to clean up his trash. I woould not allow any visable seams. We must hold each other accountable to insure pride in all the trades.
"This is stated in the contract."
Thats the important part.
"If you haven't paid him tell him to clean up his trash."
And if the drywall guy is not obligated by contract to do so the original poster can EXPECT a lien to be placed on his property.
I would say that if he doen't fix the improper finishing then he can withhold final payment.
Edited 5/30/2005 12:28 pm ET by bigmtk
It's a pretty big leap from the words 'clean up your trash' to a lien now isn't it?
Depends.
If someone tells me to do something I am not contracturally obligated to do or you won't get paid and they procede to not pay me. Then it is not a huge leap.
If the terms of the contract are met then there is no reason to withhold payment.
If something is not in a contract there is no reasonable expectation for it to be done.
Granted we are only talking about a little bit of drywall and assorted other trash on one job, (which I include in the costs of any jobs I do and it is in the contract as well stating so), but over the course of the year all those little things that you might do for free that aren't in the contract can add up to huge amounts of money lost.
I do agree with asking for it to be hauled away but unless it states in the contract that it will be hauled, then do not expect it to.
Just because you still owe a contractor money does not mean that you have leverage to change the terms of the contract.
I look at it like this you come to my house, its a small job. The trash question was overlooked. I didn't suggest a law suit or even an argument. The whether paided or not question had more to do with if the guy, DW contractor was actively working the site. Maybe there is a problem with a truck, maybe dumping fees it could be a number of things. I assumed the original poster was suprised because of inexperience in contracting. I can't see any harm in him trying to negotiate something after the signing. Both ends neglected to mention the trash. I look at it like this: you supply the mats, come to my house, I'm not your Mom, clean up your trash. If we can't discuss this I don't want to do business with that guy anymore. On a personal note after that discussion I could see my self happily cleaning up the trash. With no question or resentment, as I would have had prior to that discussion.
Edited 5/30/2005 1:48 pm ET by quicksilver
There is no problem with asking for the trash to be removed.
But the way you worded your previous response...
"If you haven't paid him tell him to clean up his trash."
makes it sound like you are saying to make them haul the trash or they won't get paid.
Perhaps a better response would be "ask the contractor if they would haul the trash to the dump" instead of trying to use the outstanding balance to leverage the contractor into doing things not in the contract. I almost consider witholding payment until items not included in the contract are done, to be extortion. Might as well just tell the drywall guy that until he paints the exterior of the house and mows the grass that he wont get paid for the completed contract.
Part of the process of writing a contract is to be sure that all expectations are addressed, if a homeowner has an expectation that is not included in the contract it should be addressed before signing.
"On a personal note after that discussion I could see my self happily cleaning up the trash. With no question or resentment, as I would have had prior to that discussion."
As would I, but in the real world with as many hacks that are out there, get everything you can in writing.
I would imagine that the drywall guys are usually subs, where if there is no dumpster on site a pile is made so that when the contractor has a dumpster delivered it can easily be put in the dumpster by the contractor.
Edited 5/30/2005 2:21 pm ET by bigmtk
only in a chatroom would two hammer swingers argue semantics
Chiming in - it seems to vary greatly. Not even necessarily regional, but from one company to the next. Experience has taught me to check that box before the work gets done. I don't care if they're charging to clean up; it's fair if the original bid is only for hanging, or only for finishing. That does happen, and not infrequently.
I think on the drywallers part, if you are a homeowner and not a general contractor, making the assumption that you didn't want to clean up after them would have been pretty normal. Assumptions aside, if there is a written contract and if this isn't addressed, isn't the best tack to start out just asking? And hey, if they're like "well we didn't bid it that way and it'll cost you fifty bucks" then you can decide if you'd rather do it yourself or spend $50.
As to the primer, generally, no, you shouldn't see joints. BUT. Here's the devils advocate side, if any of it applies. There are different levels of finish. Again, back to the contract. I assume this is at least a level 4. If it's less, you might see some of the joints. Argument 2 is no drywall job is perfect - that's the holy grail. I started doing my own drywall after I got frustrated with how much prep was required to paint after the job was "done". I'm no better. I still use spackle. A coat of paint is a wonderful way to find every little defect in the wall.
Last argument is photographing, which is basically just a term used to describe exactly what you're talking about - joints showing through paint. It's usually caused by putting paint with sheen (eggshell, semigloss) over an unprimed drywall job. The paint is affected by differences in the porosity/absorption rate of the drywall paper vs. mud. Primer is designed to even out that porosity, and it's usually fairly thin. I think it's pretty common to be able to tell where the joints are when you've only primed - but if it does it's job, you should not be able to tell once you have the first color coat on.
Regardless of whether or not any of this applies to your specific scenario, if you are looking for a higher finish, before you go any further, talk it over with the drywaller. If there's sanding to be done and you've primed, you've just complicated his work. And you could look into surfacing primers, such as USG Tuffhide or Sherwin Williams Builders Solution. Those kinds of products go a long ways towards hiding imperfections, evening the surface, and providing an outstanding base for finish paint. You will need to hire that done though. They are not DIY friendly or roller applied. They go on with a fairly big airless pump (which I'm assuming you don't own) and applied incorrectly can really ruin your world.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
As far as the level of finish goes, I can't see it from here, so I don't know if he one coated and called it good, or if it barely telegraphs direction in sheen. I use the SW or USG primers made for drywall - they have body and hid and texture true.
Trash - I have never been around new work that did not have a disposal dumpster or other system in place, where subs were expected to place their own trash in the dumpster, but not to haul it off.
But in someone's home, most subs know to include the cleanup in their fees. Now if you sent hiom a message that you werre the GC and taking care of the preiferals by , say, purchasing the materials and just hiring him for the labor, and asking for a rock bottom price, then he could make an arguement that it is your job to clean it up, but I would generally be as displeased as you are. I have a habit of meeting my subs at the door on the way out with a broom if they have not cleaned up their own trash. Bigger job - I have a guy doing it all the time anyway...
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