I’m wondering if any drywall pros might want to share their advice on an amateur finishing his own drywall.
I’ve got my drywall hung in my finished basment and I was thinking of doing some or all of taping work myself to save a few bucks. I also know that saving a few bucks can end up costing more in the long run between the right tools and possible mistakes. (I’ll buy or rent the tools, but the mistakes are another story)
Is this a suggested project or should I hire a pro? Would it save any money to do the first coat of compound on the fasteners and/or the seams?
I’m really not opposed to hiring a pro and paying the quoted price, but I’m also not opposed to saving a little money too.
Thanks for any suggestions…
Patrick
Edit: I have approximately 40 sheets of drywall to finish. I’ll be painting the walls when this the drywall finish is complete. I’d like to have a standard living space good quality finish. I also bought the Myron Ferguson book about drywall.
Edited 10/5/2005 12:56 pm ET by Corrib
Replies
You might want to say how many sheets or sq. ft. you have, and what the basement will be used for, and how good you want it to look how soon.
As an total amatuer, I can say that it is doable, but just how good of a finish you want is likely to determine whether you want to or not. Plus what is the cost of hiring a pro.
The basic tools are cheap.
The #1 mistake first-timers make is putting on too much mud. Less is more. It's a lot easier to make another pass with another coat than it is to sand it down when you have too much.
Lots of controversy with regard to paper tape vs fiberglass vs self-stick paper. Most pros probably use regular paper tape most of the time, and it is claimed that fiberglass tape should not be used with regular pre-mixed mud. Others say they use fiberglass regularly with pre-mixed mud and have no problems. It probably won't hurt you to start with regular paper, in any event. (Hint: Try wetting the tape before bedding it.)
Go with pre-mixed mud. But be sure to stir it well before use, and generally thin it slightly with a few splashes of water. Some folks swear by a squirt or two of hand dishwashing detergent.
Keep the mud clean. Cover the bucket when you're not digging from it, don't dump old mud back in the bucket. Cr*p in the mud will cause skips and lines in the finish.
Re just doing part yourself, I doubt that many DW finishers will want to go along with this. They have no idea how good a job you'll do on the first coat, and how much time they'll have to spend fixing your mistakes.
I think you can do it no problem......
DanH already gave you good advice. You will need a pan and some knives. I use a 6 inch for the first coat, 10 (or 8) for the second, and 12 or 14 for finish---everybody has different preferences
Like dan said, less is better>>>less sanding is way better. for screw holes get some mud on your knife and swoop down across the hole, the stand the knife up straighter and swoop across to cut off the excess. For the seams, put a thin coat of mud down to bed the paper tape in and then a thin coat on top....Just play around till you get the hang of it.
Just smooth and steady, and Don't get ANY crud in the mud! I taught myself to tape on a similar project, and then the boss found out that I could, and I wished I'd of never learned!
Good luck!
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
The main difference between a mud job done by a reasonably competent amateur and one done by a pro is that the amateur will take 2-3 times as long. The pro knows a few tricks (especially for things like mudding butt ends) but mostly patience alone will get the job done. With both the amateur and pro you can get a decent job or, with 25-30% more work, a really great job. Sometimes a decent job is fine, other times you want a great job -- plan according to what you want/need.
All good advice, but especially about not throwing "used mud" back in the bucket and keeping the bucket covered. Nothing like a lump of hardened mud or a piece of dirt or sawdust to mess up a nice tape job.
[Like the guy I work with always forgetting to cover the can of adhesive before he routes the hp laminate counter tops!]
It sounds like a great way to get your hands dirty. I agree with others that no pro would want to go behind you after you have done half the job, so if you start, you'll have to finish. The good part is that it's in the basement, so there's no hurry to get it done (except keeping DW happy).
Don't use the lightweight compound ... stick with all purpose. For one thing, you can't use light weight for bedding the tape ... even says so on the label.
You will want ot go ahead and buy the tools ... there arenb't many, and they don't cost much. The only tool you might want to rent would be a texture sprayer.
Much better to do 3-5 thin coats ratyher than trying to get done in a hurry with only 2.
The only tricky parts will be the inside corners. Go to a real drywall supply and buy some metal-paper outside corners and that part will be easy.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Why don't you try this first, then maybe you can decide if
you want to tackle the whole job. Take a closet(assuming
you have one) and try out your skills on that to see
if you'll be capable to do the whole thing. That
way you can get a "taste" to see what you can or can't
do.
No, contract out the closets!! They're the worst!
No, contract out the closets!! They're the worst!I agree, so I figured ifn he could do those than he could handle the rest, that is if he was satisfied with thefinished product.
Yeah, and it he can work in there without going insane, then he can handle any project!
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
<insane>Now, that is something I can handle :-)be insane
As a DIYer who's watched some pros do it, I've learned the following:
1) Get a hawk. It makes it easier to quickly apply, spread and smooth a lot of compound, and then as quickly remove the excess. You can also keep the compound bucket closed while you're working, preventing it from drying out.
2) Make sure you mix the compound thoroughly before each use.
3) This isn't a tip from a pro, but I've learned to keep the inside walls of the compound bucket very clean; I even wipe it off with a damp rag. This keeps the hardened pieces of compound DanH referred to out of the good stuff. Then I take some plastic food wrap and lay it over the top of the compound. This keeps the compound from drying out.
4) The pros I seen use a 6" knife for everything. I use a 6" for most things, but sometimes I'll use a 12" for feathering or to smooth out large irregularities.
5) I agree, less is more. 3 - 4 (or more thin coats are better than 1-2 thick coats. There will likely be less sanding with the thinner coats.
6) Sanding is the worst job of all. In some cases the compound can be smoothed out with a damp sponge instead of sanding.
Good luck.
When the mud drys, Do not sand between coats. Just take a dry trowel and scrape off all the lumps and bumps, then mud some more. Shine a light from the corners of the room to show imperfections. Prime the whole wall after mudding and putty again when the primer shows more flaws.
Right. This is a trick I saw some pros around here use several years back, and it's even better as an amateur trick. Use your mud knife (you need a steel one for this -- not plastic) to scrape over the surface (tilting the knife handle back like you're trying to "shave" the surface). Any blobs that have "gotten away", either in a mudded area or splatter on unmudded surfaces, will be knocked off. Even high spots can be ground down fairly quickly, much faster than sanding. This is all you usually need between coats.I've never tried the wet sponge approach, but I fail to see how that could work better than this.
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No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
The wet sponge is done at some perticular time before the mud is totally dry.....
I never could get it to work right though. So I just scrape with the knife like you said.
When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
I hate these kind of threads .
Mooney, you make a good point about getting a pro to tape 40 sheets.BUT...I'm not a pro, and I love this kind of thread. I think this kind of thread is what this site is about. You may not have learned anything here, but your contribution helped myself and others.
I am a pro and gettin old doing it .
Im all for helping anyone and try to do just that. He didnt ask how to do it . He asked if he should do it and you are lke the people who watch the bull fights.
If he had asked how I would have helped him. If he would have been doing a kids bedroom , utility, closet and the sheets had bot been so many, I would have said heck ya .
[this is where I start earning my keep around here }
Now let me tell you somthing . Ive been in realestate for as long. Ive seen homeowners ruin their houses . They say at the time , "Its my house".
Well, KEEP it then, because they are hard to sell. I know because I pay 50 cents on the dollar for them. Instead of making their home an investment they go bankrupt with them. Its pretty sad. LIke hauling garbage to the carrier its his job. That is my job . I rehab them . Kids toys and lifes are left behind in those houses. For some reason the parents leave them because of disrespect for them selves. It doesnt take much of a detective or an indian to read track.
Ive seen hundreds of DIY jobs . They stick out like a diamond in a goats butt. I can always tell and everyone else can do . Whoever thinks the public dont see is a fool.
Houses are sold in 15 minutes and thats first impression , then they are gone to see another one which is an important thing to stop and talk about . Those people who are called buyers see a dozen houses a day . They pick the best out of the group for the same money. Its like pretty girls getting chosen for dates. Ugly boys get turned down. Go right ahead and screw a house up and keep it , but dont expect it to lead the market in sales. It wont .
Tim
If it was only $25/hour and you can mud and tape that many sheets that fast, (for a pro job) i'd say go for it.But around here, it's more like 3x that cost and about twice as slow. (for a "pro" here)And, many of the "pros" around here still use nails and about 5 years later you end up with nail pops all over the place.Of course, with the vast majority of houses here being 50 years or older, most prospective homebuyers are used to "character" (ie, squeeky hard wood floors, nail pops galore, etc.)I'd guess it kinda depends on where you live.(of course, around here, 99% of the houses have NO texturing on them either, so everything stands out), whereas in places like Colorado, texturing walls and ceilings is very common and you can hide a lot (but not all) of cosmetic issues with mudding/taping.
You throw a lot of points out in a small post! wow.
If it was only 25,....
People here make 10 dollars an hour and make payments on 50 to 75 thousand dollar houses . Thats about the best they can do. To draw 25 here it has to be bid and you have to move on with it . While we are there , thats why drywall threads often disgust me . [Im just a diyer but this is how I do it } {Im a carpenter full time but I take a few jobs or do my own taping and heres how you do it } When you read those posts you have to figgure windage. On this forum if someone made a statement like that about framming , cabinets , trimming etc ,they would pounce on them with an answer telling them how dumb they were because this forum is probably 80 percent carpenters. I have never met a full time finisher / taper on here except my self and Im not one anymore. If you go to JLC online that will change . People here are more knowledgeable about tile for example , but again if you take a post like the example over to the tile forum you will be corrected quickly. Back to the point. Im going to guess you are talking about houses that are worth several hundred thousand. Wages go up and thats life. The homeowners make more money and they spend it. I went to Florida last summer and visted a place near the beach . People there were dripping with money. Ive bought repos for 30 thousand that would put there 250,000 vacation houses to "shame". Big difference.
Next you speak of older houses. OK.
Older houses to some people have some sort of sex appeal. Ill never quite understand it but I dont have a model T in my garage. I dont collect old things that are out dated. But many people will buy an older dated house and pay close to the same money as a new one. Amazing! However , the ones in top condition often bring a premium. Ask Andy C and his wife katrina. Andy makes his licks on them and lives at home redoing them. They will sell the one he is working on now and move to the next one. I did it for a while and made a decent living at it. When a house gets 50 years old decsions must be made to either modernize it or restore it . To me the work still needs to be first class. Thats only my opinion but that opinion sells houses. A banker once asked my wife how we got top price out of every thing we touched and could do it when we were done fixing it , not a year later. Thats another thread by its self. My record average for 28 houses are 90 days on the market. Some have sold in as little as two weeks. Part of that is buying right and selling at market price, not more. I disagree that work can be shoddy because a house is 50 years old. Sure you can sell it , but you cant lead the market in sales.
Tim
I reread this thread and realized I was a little blunt but truthful.
The intention of these threads is to learn and to share information.
In light of my bluntness , I would like to add some more information to it.
I would advise the original poster to continue to learn and not be scared off the "idea", because thats what we are all here to do. Homes are an investment or they should be and it would be great if we could all make money off our decisions. Since Im in this thread I will make a statement. For some reason this type of subject learning is lacking in this forum with imformational threads. Thats part my fault for not sharing and others as well. When the poster asked the question if he should do it and to me the sole qualifier was that he owned a book is certainly not in order. I would have also suggested he study the book and then ask somthing he didnt understand. I like Boss have written on different aspects of this trade and didnt save them. One importwnt one was the 6 inch knife and its uses. I guess Ive done that one about three times and should have saved one of them. I guess what Im trying to say is that we should be trying to advance our skills in asking the right questions. Frenchy is in the second of a series of explaining big equipment which is very enlightening . If any one would like to discuss this trade I will certainly help if you would like for me to.
Tim
Mooney,
I do appreciate your bluntness about hiring a pro. In part because of your post, I'm going to do just that. This is often why I (and others I'm sure) post messages about the generalities how to complete a project. Sometimes bluntness is the best option and I applaud you for that. Maybe my taper should pay you a referal commission.
That being said, a book is often a good starting point for any project. Then, get another book dealing with the same subject but with slightly different opinions. Then one is building a knowledge base.
Thanks again for everyone's help on this. I think I'll be going the texture route.
Im going to keep this short and to the point and I hope it helps .
Im all for people learning and if you and your wife can stand the results then wow.
People usually start by trying to repair or do a couple of sheets patch which isnt that bad but a learning experience.
40 sheets in YOUR living area with a wife to consider sounds like Custers last stand. Im sorry.
For one thing you wont make anything in the time it would take . You would make much more mowing someones lawn. Thats how bad that is . A pro has to be moving on to make labor. I tape 130 sheets in 6 hours to break a profit on labor . 40 sheets in no longer than 2 hours. Thats 50 dollars labor at 25.00 per hour.
Next you have to have the ability to make it look right to accept paint to suit your wife and remember they never forget anything.
If you could hire a professional finisher for 25 an hour , you would be in the best shape .
Most of the jobs that have been started by homeowners have to be redone which gets more expensive . Some are a lot more depending . Humps and blobs and bubbles in the tape are some . Others have taped with lite weight mud , or mud not thinned and would make a very poor concrete job much less ready for painting.
Tim
On the other hand, a bad mud job won't make the house fall down, cause a fire, or invalidate your homeowner's insurance. It's something that a modestly competent DIYer can do to gain experience and confidence. It's something that (wife permitting) can be done slowly, over many months if necessary (though you'll likely have to buy a new bucket of mud if you spread it out too long). And, in the right circumstances, it's actually relaxing and a nice break from a desk job or whatever. Something where you can make visible progress, be responsible for your own screwups, not have to be responsible for anyone elses. You can actually do a decent job with the TV tuned to a football game and an open beer next to the mud bucket. (Just be sure to stop at one beer.)
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No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Or to figgure it this way;
40 shts x 32 sqft =1280 sg ft x .30 per ft =384.00 including material finishing if it was hung by a pro.
The loss of nookie over a period of , ah fergit. LOL.
Tim
Who hung it ?
Tim
As others have stated - if you start, plan on finishing or paying extra - most people don't like to come in and finish a job someone else starts.
If you do decide to do it yourself - I highly recommend using No-Coat ultra flex 325 on the corners, especially inside corners.
It comes in a 100 foot roll. Probably won't be able to find it at a Home Depot or Menards, but should be available from a drywall supplier - check the yellow pages.
No-Coat ultra flex is a structural corner bead that you apply much the same way you would paper. The big advantage is that you have a solid edge to run your knife along so you don't gouge one side while you are trying to smooth the other.
Very easy to use, with a very short learning curve.
Really just makes for nice crisp corners with minimal work.
There are directions in the box when you buy it.
Good luck,
Shoe
edit to add link - http://no-coat.com/No-Coat/Products/NO-COAT_Ultraflex_Series/Ultraflex/Ultraflex.html
Edited 10/6/2005 6:56 pm ET by Shoeman
im a building contractors ( for 2 years now) have about 18 years carp experience.
never finished any dw hung a lot though what danh said is true. my stepdad helped me and he sure laid it on thick. took me a whole to sand 2 rooms myself. and i still have my"office to sand . 2 months later. that romm is only 10 x 14 but must be a whole bucket o mud there.
just take ur time its not sooooooooo hard.
tyke
Just another day in paradise
If it was a smaller amount of sheets I'd say go ahead and try it. 40 sheets is alot of taping & spackling for a beginner. If you screw it up (after spending alot of time trying) it's going to be expensive to have a pro come in and fix it. Did you stand the sheets vertical or go horizontal?
I'm not a pro, but I've done alot of spackling. I'd suggest you get it done right the 1st time. To get the most for your money watch the pro and ask questions. At least you get a world of learning for your dollars.
If you get a chance to watch someone who does it every day, it's like watching an artist. It looks so simple you'll think anybody could do it.
You've already saved a bunch by hanging the sheetrock. Now pay to get it finished right. You'll be happier with the finished product.
Nothing like seeing it to get a feel for what you need to do. Get some good trowels at your local store and buy the mud in the premixed bucket. Start with the all purpose and when you get into finishing add 1 cup of water to it and mix...or buy annother bucket of finishing mud. Here is a link from this site from Myron Ferguson for a video clip. http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/hvt050.asp
Don't be afraid...just give it a go
Byron
I admire your initiative. I am no pro but I cut my teeth on my bathroom and since have learned a few things watching tradesmen. My biggest mistake was not thinning my mud more. It only makes it that much more difficult, if not impossible to feather your edges. Use a 1/2" drill to whip it up when you're starting out. The pros I've talked to say they add liquid soap to improve handling and suppress bubbles; of course they don't measure, they do it by feel. I also notice them using the boxes of premixed mud instead of the 5 gallon buckets. One guy I talked to said that the buckets are often old and that mud ages, becoming lumpy and less workable. I don't know whether that is true or not, but the 5 gallon buckets do come way too full to thin with water...
If you were too busy to mud, I'd imagine you wouldn't have taken on hanging all those sheets to begin with. There is something to be said for trying out a new skill on your own time when you have the patience and resolve to do so.
Good Luck,
Jeff
I'm not sure if this is common or if I invented it. (Never seen anyone else do it)
I use a 6" knife for my initial application and the knives I use all have a brass butt on the end of the handle. I guess this was meant to bang in any nails that are standing proud. Since I use screws, that's not an issue, but that brass butt works perfectly for marking low spots when a light is held tangential to to surface to check for imperfections.
After the first coat is dry and you've knifed off any clingons, hold the light in your left hand (if you're right-handed) and with the brass butt of the taping knife make circles or any kind of marks to indicate the low spots, or high spots for that matter. It's like writing with chalk on a blackboard. The mark is very visible but it doesn't show through when you put on the next coat.
I do apologize if every one uses this trick and I've just never seen it.
Thanks to everyone that's posted. You guys make Breaktime my choice for home improvement info! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to answer my drywall beginner questions.
For what it's worth, I've decided to have a pro do the texturing and taping. I worked with a number of other trades who did a great job and it should be a shame to not have drywall with a great finish.Anyway, I've seen some interesting textures on drywall in some new houses. Could this be the orange peel texture or something else? Is there a webpage that shows pictures of different textures? How much do these add to the cost?Thanks again!
From what I have seen, most pros would rather texture then go smooth.
A texture hides alot of imperfection and is easier to do. Not sure
what the cost increase is tho.
Rob Teed
Dream Builders