I’ve got a couple of walls and a ceiling that I think are just too far gone with cracks for plaster repair. I need some advice:
Is 1/4″ drywall, screwed through the plaster into studs (16″ o.c., ceiling and walls) thick enough? Should I adhere it with mud or something else to the plaster below, or that overkill?
I intend to take the opportunity to run new electrical, data, and other low voltage, so I was figuring I’d just bust big holes in the old plaster, cut out the lath generously, then screw “new work” boxes to the studs and then Rotozip out the boxes when I put up the new drywall. Will this technique work with 1/4″ or do I need to go 1/2″?
Also, my room is 14′-0″ x 14″-0″. Can I get 1/4″ in 14 (or 16) foot long sheets to eliminate any butt joints, or how should I deal with that?
Thanks in advance to all for any advice.
Replies
I used 3/8" over plaster in an effort to save time and mess when I bought my first house. Next time I'll just rip it out, and start fresh. It just wasn't worth the savings to me. I wouldn't want to try to lift a 14' long peice of 1/4" rock up to the ceiling even if they do make it.
Too far gone for mesh and skim coating?
Keep in mind....laminating the walls adds the additional joy of attentioning the trim throughout the room.
How old a house is it? Would removing the plaster altogether allow you the benefit of insulating exterior walls?
Laminating is often the "cheapest" way to go....however, it's rarely the best way.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Yeah. For what it's worth, remove the old plaster completely. You'll probably be half-way there after swinging away with a hammer to run your electrical. ;-)
Once you remove the lath, your door and window jambs will be the wrong depth, so I'd fur out the studs to the right depth. It's not a big deal to rip a bunch of 2" strips of plywood of the appropriate thickness. Tack them on with a couple nails. You can also take this opportunity to shim those strips to get rid of any offending waviness.
Remember to use longer drywall screws.
It sounds like a pain now, but it won't be such a big deal once you're into it. And yeah, you can insulate, put in blocking for whatever, have total access for electrical, and all that good stuff.
rasher,
I've been gutting our master bath for the last three day's, 3/8 sheetrock and 1/4 " of wallpaper(that stuff should be outlawed ..). Exterior walls had owens cornings NEW insulation, medium 2", I am so glad I tore it out and not just rocked over it. If the walls were filled with blown in insulation, I may have just rocked over them after fishing wires etc. If you gut it , be prepared, I have a pile outside the window that looks like it could fill the entire room, floor to ceiling..kind of like digging a hole, filling it in and still having a big pile of dirt left over, ?? That couldn't't't have all been in there..
As others have said, it would be easier to update wires, plumbing, and get rid of any unevenness in the wall's.
northeastvt
It's just going to be easier for me to put new drywall over the old plaster. The ceiling, for instance, has about 12" of 2 year old cellulose, above the lath, so tearing that down is not really an option. The walls that I need to layer over don't have any door or window casings, so I just need to mod the baseboard. The whole room gets a new crown mold treatment anyway. The existing walls in the room with windows and doors and casing are in good shape and the trim is all recently redone and painted, so I'm not going to do anything to tear that up.Wifey is already pretty upset with the extent of the demolition work. She wanted the room done quick and easy. To her, plaster washers, filling, taping, mudding and skimming is quick and easy. I'm 95% sure that the drywall overlay is quicker and easier.
Going over plaster is almost never a really good choice. The walls may be wavy, and the trim won't sit right anymore. Even if you tear off the old plaster (be prepared for a HUGE mess) you won't have straight surfaces for the drywall. One big advantage of plaster it that it even out unevenness underneath it.
And fishing wire isn't all that hard and you don't need to make big holes. Plumbing might be a little tougher.
Keep the holes to a minimum, wire and plumb as needed, then figure out how to repair the plaster. It will look better and be more durable. If you have too, call a plaster professional. Well worth the money in my opinion.
I'm not really trying to be argumentative, but...
We had a drywall crew come in a overlay the ceiling in our living room dining room area (over terribly cracked plaster) and it looks great. Durability isn't an issue, I don't think, on the ceiling. We haven't put the crown molding back up, but it really can't be any worse than the rest of the house...
rasher -
I rocked over the plaster in my first house, 25 years ago. Couldn't afford the time, debris, or disposal demo would have caused. Sold it after 5 years. I was in it 2 years ago and it looks as good as the day I finished it.
Basic order of things,
1. Remove all the trim.
2. Locate all the framing where you want to laminate and mark it well. Old homes aren't always 16" on center.
3. Take an 8 foot straight edge to the walls, a good 1x4 is sufficient. Check them horizontally and vertically for depressions and high spots. Note these on the wall, -1/2" for example.
4. Remove all outlets and switches and add extensions to electrical boxes.
5. Get ready to rock. Old studs are very hard. You don't want to use too long a screw. Whatever length gets you 3/4" to 1" in is good. For me it was 2 1/2". Also use fine thread, not the usual coarse thread. They're much better/easier in hard, old wood. You'll also need buckets of joint compound on hand.
As to the rock itself, I put 1/2" on the ceilings and 5/8" on the walls. Thicker rock bridges imperfections better.
6. Put lines on the rock for all the framing behind that sheet.
7. Put a golf balls worth of joint compound on the wall, every 10" or so. Any spot with a depression gets more, baseball sized if needed. Then quickly...
8. Put the rock on the wall, wiggle it a little to mush it into the compound so there's good contact and screw it off. Don't screw where there were low spots, you'll just suck the rock down to it. Let it float and screw around it. Repeat, repeat....
9. Be sure to hold the rock back enough around the windows and doors to put the extension jambs on. Also a good time to foam around the windows if needed.
10. After it's spackled, vacuum up the place, trim it out, paint and install new outlets and switches.
Then after lunch, start on the kitchen. ;-)
One thing to note, if the walls have gloss paint, don't use compound, use a construction adhesive made for drywall.
That's about it. It may sound like a bit much, but it actually goes fast. Helps alot having a partner to work with.
I wouldn't hesitate to do it again, good luck with yours...buic
Thank you for the step by step. That's exactly what I was looking for and also what I was sort of thinking. I forgot that thicker drywall can bridge dips in plaster (just like drywall can bridge studs... duh). I'll go that route.Also: thanks to all for the strapping suggestion. Good way to take out the dips and such. I'll look in to that. Strapping around the perimeter ought to make a good anchorage for the crown molding, too, huh?
Edited 10/16/2007 7:15 pm by rasher
In cases where the mess isn't worth it, I use strapping. 1x4's screwed to the ceiling joists through the old plaster. Then cover the strapping with 1/2" drywall if your strapping is 16" OC.
Hanging board on clean strapping is nice. You can shim between the plaster and strapping to get rid of any large waves.
You do lose an 1-1/4" of head height so make sure thats not going to interfere with any head casings or anything else.
Matt
I'm with you on strapping the ceiling. I didn't, and that's how I know.They just put the joists wherever in my last house, built in the 1920s, and trying to find them with a 2.5" screw going through rock-hard plaster was not good times. I was unsure of enough screws that I eventually drove about 20 or 30 extra into each sheet to be on the safe side.Also, all the ceilings in that house were at 102" - go figure - so losing some headroom wouldn't have mattered at all.
Edited 10/16/2007 6:23 pm ET by Biff_Loman
If I can't strap it, it's a tear out.
Your thoughts are the same as mine, enough screws? Odd spacing makes it even more fun.
For a little $ it's well worth it. Utility grade 1x4's are cheap.
Matt
If you do leave the plaster in place, be sure to secure any loose areas with plaster screws before applying the new drywall.
I wouldn't use anything thinner that 3/8" for this. 1/4" should really only be used when laminating to another smooth, solid surface.
14-foot drywall is available some places, but not something generally stocked in most areas. And installing 14-foot pieces wall-to-wall on the ceiling would be a trick, to say the least.
How did the ceiling go?
Hi
I am reading some old threads and posts because I also have an ancient plaster ceiling with a spiderweb of cracks and fissures. I like some the advice given to you, especially the idea of using 1/4 inch furring strips. Like you wrote, I want to put up crown moulding to take care of the edges.
How did your ceiling go? Any tips?
thanks
J
Plaster walls have a much better feel than 1/2" sheetrock - i'd take the time to cover them with mesh and drywall mud them smooth. 1/2" rock reminds me of cheap apartments - not a high bar to strive for. As for losing headroom to fir out over plaster - again this seems like an odd fix - I'd notice the low ceiling right away and wouldn't like it on an 8' ceiling. It doesn't take that much to tear out old plaster so I don't get the appeal of adding another layer over something you don't like....same goes for most of the rest of the house - tear it out and do it right.
Old walls
Hey Idaho Don,you got that right about carpenters and BEER, i am a fabricator and it,s BEER:30 here. I remodeled a old farm house years ago that had all hardwood frameing meaning oak elm anything they could mill back in the day the house was built. at least 10 layers of wallpaper over toung and groove wall boards sawdust for insulation,no electrical wireing at all,no indoor plumbing.Had to pre drill holes before i could nail or screw anything to studs.
Used 1/2" drywall on walls and 5/8" water board,green board it is called on celling turned out so nice when finished the old man fainted when he fliped the light switch. His wife turned the water on in thier new sink and stood an watched it run for a full 5min then turned around and said i guess you think i didn,t know how to do that>.
lamination
Complete tear out is best but not as simple as tear it out and slap up new dw. Old work often relied on plasterers to straighten, plumb, square, etc. If you read the old trade handbooks that's mostly what they detail. If you rip out the plaster you'll be sistering everything to straighten. Plus removing/rehanging the trim.
Use 1/2" board, glue, 2 1/2" screws into joists for the ceiling. Walls there are fewer holes for mechanicals, 1/4" lam is ok. Better do 3/8" and use shroud mould @ door casing, but will have to remove base and extend window sills -- aways a drag.
Walls could also be replastered, might be cheaper than playing with the trim depending on labor costs where you are. We often lam the ceiling and skim the walls with 2 coat.
I'd agree its best to tear out and redo but................ When you're getting old like me, its real hard to get up for doing this alone. A garbage pail full of plaster and lath weighs a ton, too much dust etc. If I had a crew maybe. And, what has not been added is that there is probably going to be lots of lead let loose. We didn't care about that too long age but now its a real issue, maybe even a legal issue depending on who's watching. My last house had plaster buried under 3 layers of peeling wallpaper, didn't take too many rooms before I decided to go over them with 1/2 inch sheetrock. Also, plaster adds some R factor and is generally a good air barrier. My house had no insulation in places and no sheathing, just clapboards over studs and there'd be a whole host of issues if those bays were opened. On outside walls I'd put in some 1" rigid insulation then strapping and sheetrock, gave me enough space for electrical boxes. Inside walls were often just plaster/lathe on both sides over 1"-1 1/2 inch planks (solid plank walls). They definetly needed to be strapped and sheetrocked. Also, these older poorer type of farmhouses had the door/window caseings and baseboards in the same plane as the plaster, so messing with those would be an issue regardless, might as well tear out the caseings and do something nice.
my penny and a half
For cracked plaster that isn't too far gone there's also "wall liner" -- a sort of heavy-duty wallpaper you put on horizontally and then paint or wallpaper over.
Popcorn ceilings are sometimes made of spray on foam if it is newer, but there is a good chance that asbestos you are dealing with.