What do you recommend we do, drywall and mud-wise, at this condition? Please see the attached sketch.
Horizontal drywall on a soffit ends and butts to a hardwood trim band.
We did this before, and first tried a steel corner bead, fastening the bead’s vertical leg to the 2×2 framing edge. The bead’s corner caused us a problem, in that it pooched out from the 2x2s surface, ruining our opportunity to fasten the trim to a nice flush plumb surface. The taper’s solution was to take off the corner bead, have us put up the trim, blue tape it, and then he flat-taped into the joint. I wasn’t happy with the result.
This time, we want a method that allows us to get all the taping done before trim-out.
Would one of the pvc TrimTex beads work for us here?
Replies
That's a questionable detail unless you allow the maple to hang below the rock and then dado the back of the maple about 1/4" so the rock can key in. A flush joint is going to be a PITA.
It will be all over this house. Here is a pic of the LR of the home we'll be duplicating. You can see this detail running across two sides of the living room.
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Is that the house from "The Not So Big House" by Sarah Susanka? It would sure be nice if we could get a guest appearance from Mrs. Susanka to explain how she detailed that.
I like the look a lot but IMHO the added detail of floating that trim off the wall with a subtle reveal would really make it snap. Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
Yes, that's a Susanka house, but not the one she featured with photos in her first book, "The Not So Big House." This is one she did after that one, and she used many of the details in this larger, spread-out version.
Neither she nor the builder can recall how the detail was done. I live in a copy of her NSBH that I built myself, and I described how we did the detail in mine. I was in the actual house shown in the photograph, and there is no reveal.
TrimTex makes a shadow reveal and the smallest one they sell would leave a 1/4" reveal.
I thought one of their other profiles would work, stapling the long leg to the face of the 2x2
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It might work - what you end up with is esentially a corner bead with only the bottom leg taped. Metal studs at those locations might make it a little easier to tighten up the tolerances enough to make a crisp corner too.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
How about putting a Trim Tex inside corner bead on backwards? That would create a sharp edge with a very subtle reveal that could be perfectly flushed out with paintable caulk at trim out.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
How about the pre-masked tearaway (rip) L beads.
http://www.trim-tex.com/catalog/lbeads.htm
http://www.dietrichindustries.com/bigdprod/btvinyl.htm
I thought about using that on the first one we did with this detail, but tried it and gave up. The U-channel extruded into the part, that the thin flat PVC masking strip slips into, gave us a thickness on the face of the 2x2 that caused the maple trim, applied after, to rock back out of plumb.
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We really want to do this first, before the trim work starts, so all the drywall work can complete. I hate out-of-sequence operations.
The Dietrich one might work, though.
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A "larger spread out version" of the "not-so-big house" hu?
The market prevails again. <G>Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
The Trim Tex J bead might do the trick but it's going to be pretty tough to get a truly flush condition between the drywall and wood. I usually try to offset adjacent surfaces like that or add a reveal to seprate them.
Any chance they would consider the Trim Tex shadow bead as a clean way to draw a laser sharp line at that transition?
Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
Here it is with a shadow bead and 1/4" reveal. We'll need to paint that reveal in the color of the gypboard soffit, before we install the maple edge. We'll also have to prefinish the part of the maple edge that is in the reveal.
You got it. Several great ideas here but I don't think anything will look as clean and crisp as that one. The reveal won't really even be noticed as a "groove," just a nice clean shadow line separating the materials.
If that won't fly you could either create a lip at the bottom of your trim that wraps under and fits into the reveal, fill the reveal with a 1/4" strip of wood to match the trim after it is applied or add a backer rod and caulk painted to match the soffit.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
You can also make that reveal narrower if you want to. Just slide it forward to the desired depth and kerf the back of your trim to slip over the protruding lip.
Oh, oh, oh wait a minute... brain flash!!! If the gap absolutely has to go, fill the reveal with a thin piece of brass or a strip of darker trim for a super slick inlay effect!
Whatever you do I would definitely use metal framing on the soffits.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
Help me out with the metal framing.
Remember that the framing "thickness" for the soffit is 1-1/2". That maple band that's trimming the edge is doing a lot of things. It is covering the thickness of trimmed drywall, then the 2x2 (nominal) edge framing, then the 1/2" melamine, and still has enough lip at the top to fully hide the rope light.
If I could get 1.5 inch track, which I probably can, I can screw together a "ladder" of flat-laying studs with track caps on each end, and then fasten it up to make my soffit bottom with lip. What I will need to deal with is all the screw heads projecting from the surface, wanting to hold up my melamine, and hold down my gypboard.
What did you have in mind?
When we did this before, we ripped the straightest 2x4s we had to make the 1.5 x 1.5 "plates", then tacked them to flat 2x4 "studs" to make a ladder frame. We used 15 gage finish nails to do the initial tacking, and drilled for and placed screws to fix the 2x2s to the 2x4s. We learned this the hard way, after trying to spike up the assemblies with a framing nailer.
I used 1 1/2" metal studs for a lot of the soffits in my house but the little pan head screws I used probably would create a problem for you on something this tight.
Pinning the metal together with rivets would be a pain but you would end up with a really flat, straight and very strong surface that won't move around on you to overlay this bit of craftsmanship on. I would think the metal foundation would sure make tight tolerance finish work like this a little easier.
Come to think of it, attaching the trim to the metal might be another issue unless you add the 2x2 as a nailer anyway. Any chance you can leave the top open and blind screw the trim from the back side before you put the melamine down? If not, maybe you could slip the wood nailer into the metal track between your ladder pieces so you can pin into it through the trim and metal track with your finish nailer.
When you work this out I think it would make a slick article for the mag. You might want to run it buy them and see if they are interested.
That way I could just add a photocopy of the article to the specs when I swipe this idea for a future project - LOL.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
The metal studs that I used where 1 5/8". I built a closet with them and by the time I got the track and header and pan head screws and 1/2 DW on each side it ended up being 2 3/4".
But I don't see what is critical here. You can make the maple any width that you want. The top is open.
But personally I think that I would like if the bottom of the maple was a little proud of the DW.
The metal studs that I used where 1 5/8".
Well, now that you mention it, so were mine. They don't do nominal in the metal stud world do they? <G>
But personally I think that I would like if the bottom of the maple was a little proud of the DW.
I couldn't agree with you more. I do my best to avoid this type of "flush" detail all together. One of the architects I work with even pulls the ends of his back splashes in 3/4" on exposed end cabinets since they seem to end up a hair shy of flush most of the time anyway.
I've never worked with a builder that took the time Bob Dylan is taking to figure this sort of thing out and do it right. I usually try and make it a little easier on them if I can. An intentional offset or reveal will usually look better than almost flush but not quite.Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
I like this one best. I also have been wanting more "thickness" on the edges of wood trim for this sort of application. With the "openess" for contrast, even 4/4 can look a little "skinny." With that reveal, could have some 'scribe' space and use a 5/4 piece of trim (or build up a piece to fit any or all of the reveal space.
If you built the flat soffit as a ladder out of 1.5" metal studs, you could almost rig it up in a jig. I'd install the melamine material first, from below to give a nice fastener-less installation. The DW would just install "normally." I'd buck a 2x in on the outside as a nailer using metal studs. Getting enough channel at one time to do the job would be the only headache I could see.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Shove the framing back a half inch, rock around the edge, then apply the wood trim.
Could you simply flat tape and finish the DW to give a straight and crisp edge?.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
What if the tapered edge of the drywall came up to the maple trim. That would give you some "space" to work with. You could then blend it together, if you need the metal edging then theres also space for that.
Having done one too many coves, I have to say I do not like the flush condition used. But, since it's part of the design, there it is. I'd leave the finish trim off, given the option, as scribing the trim to match the DW will be much simpler than the reverse.
To make a nice clean break, I'd be inclined to use a "paper" bead. That is, put a piece of tape on, between the 2x & rock at installation, then wrap the tape around to get as clean an edge as possible.
Probably not much chance of being able to use a standard J bead in this application, either. I like the previous idea of dadoin/rabbetting the trim. My personal preference would still be a reveal, even one as small as 1/8" nominal.
Here it is, revised, using a Dietrich Industries tearaway bead. What we might do, is screw rips of plywood to the 2x, for an edge on which can bear the leg of the bead, then do the bead and mud, sand and finish, then tear away the pull-off part.
You can see how the mud is floated over the bead and finished, in the sketch. The maple trim, applied last, is brought down flush to the edge.
That's probaly better than what I was thinking, using a some scrap material to make an edge to mud against; you have fewer things to replace.
Personally, I like a plywood vertical on the edge of the structure, if only so the finish trim can be blind fastened from behind. But that's a personal preference subject to change with project realities <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We do this effect pretty regularly. It strikes me as funny that someone, esp an arch, who specs this detail as reg as Ms. S wouldn't have it on file. But that's just one of many issues I have with her.
Anyhow, there are 2 ways to do this. Both was require three particular specs.
a) Framing with metal studs and track is a must. Lumber will move too much due to season and enviromental changes. This will become evident in the joints as cracks.
b) The connection btwn the maple and the mel - dado the maple so the mel sits in the dado. This will create a squarer and more rigid construction which will further decrease the oppertunity for cracks and allow less movement during rocking and taping.
c) both methods work best when using setting type joint compound. It shrinks less.
As for the 2 methods:
1. Bevel the maple edge 3 - 5 degrees. Flat tape the joint btwn the GWB and the maple. When you bevel, be sure to leave a 1/16" - 1/8" edge at the corner. This will act as your guide when taping. Be sure to oil prime the maple bevel prior to taping, for better compound adhesion and to prevent wood swelling.
2. Rabbet maple edge 1/32" - 1/16" degrees, still maitaining the 1/16" - 18" return at the corner. The rabbet is just enough to accommodate the glue, tape and a light coat of compound. Glue paper joint tape to the rabbeted edge. Once glue has dried, proceed to mud the joint. This method requires some skill and patience so the tape doesn't wrinkle or bubble and isn't comprimised during installation of wd or GWB.
The above assumes the visual "material transition" happens at the corner. If the transition occurs on the flat so the thickness of the maple shows, you're screwed. There is nothing you can do to prevent cracking AND maintain a straight edge AND a flat/ flush seam.
F.
How about tapeable L bead ? I have run into similar conditions and it has worked well.
The unimast product is similar.
Edited 8/4/2004 2:43 pm ET by arrowpov
I know this may be a bit of an oversimplification...
But why not just chamfer the maple to accommodate the steel corner bead you initially used? Sharp angle on the chamfer... a little flex in the seam... and voilà!
Eliminates the "pooch".. am I missing anything else that was wrong with the initial attempt?
just a coupla ramdon thoughts ...
one ... just because it looks nice in a pic in a book ... doesn't mean it's always gonna look nice ... me ... I'd be shooting for a reveal ... it's not gonna stay tight and flush.
two ... if steel stud framing is part of the answer and the pan head screws are thought to be a problem ... simple hand crimp the studs to the track. Flat .. nothing to bump out and get in the way ... glue and screw the drywall on ... is as sturdy as anything.
three ... I have a feeing there's gonna be a few more of these architectural mysteries buried in those prints for ya!
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff, I built a copy of the Susanka "Not So Big House," and live in it. It had this detail, and we put up the maple after the rock was hung, blue taped it, and ended up flat-taping the mud to bring the joint flush. Looks great almost three years later.
The house in the pics won't hold many surprises for us, since we did the NSBH. I snooped the original real well when I toured it with the clients a week ago. See pic sequence at http://www.healthyhomedesigns.com/home_plans/photo_detail.php?plan_id=110 Ol' Ms Susanka is a good architect . . . the house is a knockout. But, the trim details are right out of the same toolkit she employed when she did her own house in St. Paul, which became the subject of her book, and which I subsequently copied and built.
After consideration and discussion here, I think we will use a shadow bead this time, and leave a little 1/4" reveal there. We'll make sure the reveal edge is just proud of the 2x2, and rip a little slot, to catch the overhang, in the backside of the maple trim, when we put it on later.
Have you considered using mdf instead of sheetrock for the lid? If it's to be painted with a natural maple trim detail, this might save you a chunk of mud work...
After all the high-tech solutions you've been getting, I feel kinda like Alley-Oop comin' in here with a cave-man solution.
But look at the photo of the same detail in a vertical application. I put this detail in frequently to avoid rocking the ends of stub walls--usually the joint is covered with casing, but in this case, it isn't and still looks fine. That pic was taken 5 feet behind where I sit typing; it's in my office and has seen 11 years of use and traffic without shredding.
If this is what you're shooting for, it's no more complicated than cutting a very clean edge on the gyprock, back bevelling it about 5-8 degrees very carefully with a knife so you don't frag the front edge, and nailing on the trim--scribed to the gyprock.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Looks good. Kinda what I was thinking. The only thing I do is use a sanding block on the raw edge to get it nice and clean. Also super prime it to seal it up and it's a very durable edge for appearence. Then it's just a matter of getting the maple tight for a fine line finish. Maybe use some psa 220 on a 4' level for a nice sanding block.
Probably too late for this, but I would have suggested bidding $(x) for the dado maple solution with a 1/8" reveal and $10(x) for the flush version with a written stipulation that tiny flaws over time were not your problem.
Bottom line for me is that anyone who cares that much about 1/8" design difference that no one else will notice is someone I wouldn't want to work for.
good luck.
What i have done to create flush joints between GWB and wood is to glue and screw j-bead (metal) to the wood trim, insert sheetrock, blue tape the wood during the mud process, caulk the crevice between wood and bead after the mud is polished twice (caulk shrinks), paint, remove tape. A hairline crack will still appear after a year but it will be consistently very small. Truly flush is a rush.
Just only looking at your first drawing this is what I'd do:
Use the beveled edge of the drywall that meets the maple soffit. Use blue tape on the maple soffit and use a setting compound on the first coat and regular light joint compound on the 2nd and final coat.
Use a thin coat of drywall glue on the framing member and on the maple soffit to hold the drywall and use drywall screws sparingly..wait a few days and remove the screws and then finish it as described.
By using the beveled edge of the drywall meeting the maple soffit you have a beveled edge already that can be finished straight to the soffit.
By removing the screws after the glue dries you are eliminating the problem of wood shrinkage causing the screw to pull the rock in.
How long will this last..it all depends on how much the framing member, maple soffit and the rest of the structure will shrink.
Blueboard and veneer plaster?
Blueboard and veneer plaster?
I wish.
Blueboard and veneer plaster?
Even better!