Whne placing drywall on the walls why do pros put it on vertically? I would have thought that for walls under 8 feet it would be better to use it vertically – no butt joints.
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Replies
We will hang vertical if no way to get longer sheets in the room. Horizontal taping (utilizing as long a sheet as feasible is easier/quicker/cheaper than trying to tape all those sheets up and down. Commercial is often hung vert because one guy can handle the sheet, and drop ceilings go in most often.
What should precede all sheetrock is thinking what will make it easier/quicker/cheaper on all parties with the underlying "perfect will be close enough for this job" mentality.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Drywall has more strngth over its long axis. The Manufactures recomend installation perpendicular to the framing to take advantage of this strength. I will only install it vertically on walls that or 4 feet long or in a closet. Have a good day.
Cliffy
I would agree that strength is long ways. However, I read a dissertation on sheathing a house horizontally. It requires blocking behind all the seams to make it structurally as strong as going vertical. I see no reason why the same panel on the inside would be any different than the same panel on the outside.
Going horizontal seems easy because you can put up a bunch in one sheet. however, the long sheets always require two people. Cost saving? One person, one 4 x 8 or two people, one 4 x 14'. Per square foot vertical is more efficient and cost effective.
The taping is only marginally less. Going horizontal invariably screws the trim carpenters, because nobody ever figures out that the bottom tapered edge should ALWAYS be mudded with everything else. Otherwise, when trim is applied the trim locks to the wall out of plumb and ruins corner joints. Drywallers always "know" trim will cover the bottom taper joint. That's why they're not trim carpenters. If I were solely a trim carpenter, I would insist this be taken care of before I would do the job.
Vertical never has butt joints unless there is a high vertical wall. In which case, horizontal may be better for that area only.
I've rarely had a problem moving a 4 x 8 sheet through a house. 12's or 14's...just asking for a big pain in the butt.
My vote is for vertical.
If hung vertically, there is a long seam every four feet that is dependent on one very unstable stud. Done horizontally, it's spread out across the studs....
Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner.
Unless the framing is old....or metal....you will undoubtedly start to see that eight foot long vertical seem as the framing begins to dry and shrink and swell and shrink...
Very rare occasions am I tempted to install it vertically....closets may be the only exception.
(Ixnay on the aytrade secretsay!)
Screw Pete!
Gabe for Governor!
Edited 6/7/2005 10:47 pm ET by JAYBIRD
"(Attention newbies!!! Trade secret revealed!!!) butt joint between them fastened to a strip of OSB. Also, the seams are much easier to hide."
Let me get this straight.
So what you are saying is to that you hang the drywall horizontally.
And butt joints are joined not on the studs but between them using an OSB strip?
It's called a Butthanger. You can fabricate them yourself quickly, or buy them. You can search BT for discussions on this one to get more details and links to where to buy them, etc. The bottom line is it makes an indented pocket for the mud for butt joints very similar to the tapered joints.
Did you ever see a rookie run drywall on the ceiling parallel to the rafters and not stagger them? That is why some of the drywall ceiling have cracks.
Running drywall vertical next to the door jamb will result in a crack at the top cornerfrom door slamming. Running horizontal will allow you to knotch the wallboard so the joint is in the middle of the header.
FWIW, USG says to never break over a door or window.
I do it anyway, and so does everyone I've ever seen."Logic, like whiskey, loses it's beneficial effect when taken in too large quantities." Lord Dunsany
First of all, I know there are 10,563 (maybe 10,565, it depends on how you look at two of them) ways of doing everything and each has its advantages and personal preferences etc. With that said....
The only place I ever see cracks is where some hon-yock put a seam at a door corner, regular corner, or butt joint. I never see them on a vertical seam. That stud is rarely "unstable." The chances that it has been screwed at a seam on both sides is low. On the outside walls, it's been nailed up to OSB and is not unstable.
And even trade secrety-er, you didn't mention putting those extra strips on the edges of the OSB to get the butt joint to suck in to actually form a taper joint.
As far as how hard it is to mud the bottom taper joint...well...that's like the trim carpenter saying how hard it is to make up for the drywaller not doing his job. I don't throw things off on the next guy.
That comment is not trying to be extra critical. (I know I'm a jerk, but in this case, I'm just posing a philisophical question. ) The trim carp. has to do extra work to compensate. So whose job would it be to avoid that particular situation? 'Cause it really does make a crappy looking inside corner when the trim sucks under. Maybe, out of kindness at least mud right near the corner?
heck, i'm still trying to train my brother on how to build a house. he hasn't seen the effect of when you blow something off, it bites you in the butt somewhere down the line.
I usually set a few drywall screws into the bottom plate to act as adjustable shims to make up for the tapered bottom edge. Don't put them into studs or the finish nailer will find them every time!
Extra work? Yeah. Good corners? Yeah. Happy customer? Yeah.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
dude, i can sympathize with the vitriol about the tapered edge at the bottom botching the inside corners on the base, but all you need to do is have a box full of 1/2" plywood pieces to stick underneath the drywall at all corners (inside and outside). asking a rocker to mud the bottom taper is overstepping the boundaries a bit. if you don't have a bucket of plywood scraps precut for this purpose like i do, just thread a screw into the bottom of the corner if the bottom of the base cants in a bit, and use the claw to pull the screw out in order to tighten the bottom of the inside corner, while nailing at an angle to keep it there. then just remove the screw and putty like a nail hole.
wanna re-phrase the question?
I've been in residential construction for 35 years and never saw a pro hang it vertically. That makes too much work
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I had an idea..I bought a electic planer in case I need to straighten some of the studs. Why not hang the rock horizontally and land the butt joints on a stud but use the planer to take down the stud 1/8 or so to create a small valley. Would help to hide the joint, would use no extra material and take only a few seconds of extra time. A good idea?
Well, if the walls are less than 16 ft. across, and most are, there are no butt joints even when laid out horizontally.
I thought I knew most of what there was to know about drywall (which wasn't much). But I recently picked up Myron Ferguson's book on the subject, based on a recommendation here. It does a much more thorough job of explaining pro's and con's than can be done here. I heartily recommmend picking up a copy.
Maybe if you are using 16 ft drywall, which I rarely if ever see.
Then you've gotta try to fight that 16 foot drywall into the room you are trying to hang.
Basically you will have butt joints, just a fact of life.
It absurd to think you'll always have but joints. If the walls are less than 16 feet long and you still have butt joints, you either have a supply problem(i.e. Can't get it) or you have a cognitive calculation issue(I.E., you DON'T get it, or you can't think it through).I put up 200 sheets of in the renovation of my old two stoy home, and I had butted seams in only two locations.(Both of which were on walls longer than 16 feet.) Getting the 16 footers in there was only a matter of finding a competent dry wall supplier with a boom truck, and maybe those can't be found everywhere.(DIY who read Ferguson's book)
Its neither a supply issue nor a cognitive issue.
Its more of a butt joints are not a problem issue.
When you've hung and finished thousands (10 thousand would probably be a conservative estimate, I never bothered to keep track) of sheets of drywall in just about every conceivable fashion possible, butt joints just aren't that big of a deal anymore.
Its not absurd to think there will always be butt joints either, you own post basically proves it. Even with your perfect planning you still had some.
Also I have to deal with the stockers on a regular basis, I would much rather not get on their "bad side" by making them constantly setup them move the boom truck all around the house just so I can get a few 16 footers into difficult to reach rooms just to avoid a handful of butt joints.
"hey guys, I need to get 4- 16 footers into that room over there, it won't make the turn in the stairway, would you mind driving down that steep hill over there and setting up the boom truck halfway down it. Don't worry about those power lines either, they're just temporary anyway"
"what do you mean theres not enough room inside to slide the drywall off the boom, Myron said this is the best way, so by golly were gonna get them in there somehow"
"while your at it i need 6 over here too, break it down and relocate it"
"yeah guys, I realize we are spending far more time trying to get the drywall to where I need it than it would take to finish shorter boards but I just like watching you guys in action"
"Whats this extra charge for delivery?, They only had to relocate the truck four times."
NOT
(pro who really enjoys being told they have a cognitive issue by a DIYer who has read a book.)
Edited 6/10/2005 9:31 pm ET by bigmtk
butt joints just aren't that big of a deal anymore
Not a problem is you texture all drywall real thick or live in a dwelling with no windows, no lights shinning down a wall, don't use glossy paints or don't use casing around windows and doors and of course if you leave the butt on a stud that is totally dry and that does not have any forces acting on it..wait there is more...and on that stud or joist if you can leave a little space between the boards and ensure that the screws are at least 3/4" from the end of the board. Oh yea forgot...don't have chair rails, crown molding or base molding.
You meet all those conditions you don't have a problem!
Hey Ben,
You blew my cover here..but that's OK. On this topic never hang vertical. The only reason they hang vertically in commercial work is for the assumption that in case of a fire the break in the drywall is backed by a steel stud. Another point is that since most commercial is or used to be done by union workers, they want to hang vertically because it takes longer than horizontally. One guy can hand a 8 footer faster horizontally than vertically. Two guys hanging horizontally can do it faster in labor hours than one man hanging vertically.
Besides the board being structurally stronger if hung horizontally, when you hang vertically you don't have enough space on that stud to properly secure the boards. The screw should be at least 3/4" off the rock edge, but in wood studs..well that's impossible. It's the same as if you screw or nail near the edge of wood..what happens..the wood splinters or cracks.
The most important reason is that vertical seams are never straight and no one can make them straight. Walk down any commercial building and you can see the seams even on wallpaper. One can make them straight but then on wood studs you have to have perfectly flat and straight studs one must do it slowly and carefully and in the right procedure to get a flat seam..justs takes too long. Besides finishing near the floor..forget about it.
Also drywall glue holds rock the best. If using glue on vertical applications and gluing that stud the glue will ooze out and you got a mess.
Also my main contention is that a stud that is 1 1/2" wide or 1 1/4" for steel studs is not wide enough to properly secure them. Also wood studs are crooked, bent, and on the average contain 19% moisture and will shrink. Boards should always have a little space between them to allow for shrinkage and you can't have that in vertical applications.
Yes, that OSB board or plywood in between the studs is the best way. You get a flat butt. All your doing is securing the two boards so that one does not move against the other. The boards are held up by the nearest stud 8" away.
"Greatest since slice bread"..come on..best ever in construction ;-)
i am a diyer ............walls under 8 feet would not have a butt joint hanging on the horizontal asssuming the wall was 8' high or less or with a 9' high wall using 54" wide sheets
heh, heh, heh............... you said "butt"
signed,
Beavis & Butthead
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Nothing anal about it. Corners look like crap when they're not plumb and filled with caulk (alittle caulk and paint makes a carpenter what he aint.)
I think you're still talking about doing the drywallers job. The drywallers job is to make a flat wall. Why should I have to carry shims or put in screws to flatten the wall so that the trim comes out looking the way it should. Try working with a G.C. that walks around with a 0.0128 feeler gauge checking gaps in the hardwood floor. anything it fits in has to be removed (not puttied, tightened up, hidden...whatever.)
Drywall of course isn't exactly percision stuff. But I still contend that what I'm hearing here is all stuff to compensate for the drywallers not making a flat wall. Hey, I know...let's get the wallpaper guys to shim their wallpaper when it goes over a spot in the drywall that's not flat......sounds just as ridiculous.
BTW, is there anything else I can bring up to stir up this hornets nest?? :D naw, think i've said my peace.
Attempting get drywall finishers to float mud into the tapered edge along the floor is an insane idea. Have you finished much drywall?If it is a big deal to you, It would be easier to talk the dw hangers into using 54" rock along the floor and cutting it down to 48" to eliminate the tapered edge. Of course, this is also an insane idea (only slightly less insane than muddin' by the floor).Using cardboard drywall shims along the bottom of the wall can easily fill in the taper.
Yeah, or like slackers that pawn off their work on the next sub 'cause it's "too hard".
You and micrometerman deserve each other. Taping the bottom is anal and without benefit. No good reason for doing ten hours work when one will yield a better result! It sounds like your favorite periodical is Dictator's Monthly Rag
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Finishing the bottom edge is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard...
I haven't read all the posts but did someone say that they spackle the bottom edge of the tapered joint of the first row of sheetrock that is run horizontally?
If I'm hanging the rock, finishing it, and then doing trim, I'll slap a nice thick coat on that bottom taper. One coat is enough to hold it out without problems.
I'm not a big fan of vertical hanging but the boys at work are all for it (lack of butts), so I'm forced into it most of the time.