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Ductwork snowjob?

mackzully | Posted in General Discussion on June 18, 2009 01:24am

The HVAC company that I hired to install my ductwork and unit did a great job, so being that they run their own sheetmetal shop, I asked them if they could do the ducting for my rangehood, since it’ll be a wonky custom size.

I just heard back from them, roughly $1200! for 10′ run of 3″x17″, then a couple of adapters to 6″ round, then some 90s and 45s to get around everything.

I didn’t push them on the phone, but really? $1200? Is there something that I don’t know about range hood ductwork?

If this is totally out of line, any DC’ers have recommendations for a sheetmetal shop in the area?

Z

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  1. User avater
    FatRoman | Jun 18, 2009 01:56am | #1

    Can't tell you if that price is high or not.

    But I've used these guys in Alexandria and was quite happy with them. Just off of Duke St outside of Old Town/across the street (sort of) from Bishop Ireton High School

    http://northropmetal.com/

    703-751-7042

    'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb

    View Image

  2. danski0224 | Jun 18, 2009 05:55am | #2

    Lessee...

    Shop rate of $80 an hour for 12 hours (4 to fab, 8 to install) = 960.00

    1200 - 960 = 240 for materials

    Doesn't seem out of line to me.

    1. DaveRicheson | Jun 18, 2009 01:02pm | #3

      >>Shop rate of $80 an hour for 12 hours (4 to fab, 8 to install) = 960.00

      4 hours to fabricat?

      They need to upgrade thier equipment. My guy would knock that out in less than an hour. He uses a computer controled plasma cutter. He selects the sizes or enters the oddball pieces and the computer does the layout. He throws a sheet of metal up on the table, lines it with the stops and hits the start button. The plasma cutter cuts all the parts and he then runs them through the seam former and spot welds were needed.

      1. danski0224 | Jun 18, 2009 01:59pm | #4

        Well, I just picked some numbers out of thin air.

        I haven't seen the job :)

      2. peteshlagor | Jun 18, 2009 04:27pm | #5

        But your guy has a hundret grand in amortizable equipment that he has to figger it's cost into each piece.

        Them saved 4 hours may be some expensive ones...

        Never know until one gets competing bids.

        But, if'n I could find a guy to build me a hood outta nice SS for my shop for $1200, I'd be all over it. 

        1. DonCanDo | Jun 18, 2009 04:57pm | #6

          But your guy has a hundret grand in amortizable equipment that he has to figger it's cost into each piece.

          I was going to make a similar point and it's a pet peeve of mine.  If I buy a new tool that lets me get things done faster on a T&M job, the customer expects to pay less because it didn't take me as long, but if I bill at my previous hourly rate, how does the tool ever get paid for?

          1. jayzog | Jun 18, 2009 07:02pm | #11

            I was going to make a similar point and it's a pet peeve of mine.  If I buy a new tool that lets me get things done faster on a T&M job, the customer expects to pay less because it didn't take me as long, but if I bill at my previous hourly rate, how does the tool ever get paid for?

             Stick a rental sticker on the tool and charge a fee for it. 

          2. brownbagg | Jun 18, 2009 10:44pm | #15

            I know a contractor that does that, he has two company one, contractor, one equipment. every tool company own is equipment. You have a drill in your toolbox, it get charge $2 a day even if it doesnt come out of the box.Its properly just a write off, but that the way he always done it. He a very big contractor 400 people

          3. Dave45 | Jun 19, 2009 07:09pm | #28

            Your labor rate needs to include a "rate" for tool purchases, maintenance, and repairs. I use $1.50/hr which also includes consumables (screws, nails, brads, etc.)

          4. DaveRicheson | Jun 18, 2009 08:05pm | #12

            I'm not doing this stuff for a living anymore. However, after a few years of working for myself I almost had it figured out.

            Rental tools were charged directly to the job they were bid into.

            Hand tools and portable power tools were a % of my overhead cost. If I carried around say $3000 worth of tools on my truck all the time evry job got another $1.50 pre hour charged to the estimated number of hours. When I added new tools to the pile I added the total cost to the list and then figured the amount the hourly increase neede to be to get a payback on them in one year.

            If it was something I didn't allow for, but found out I neeede for a job I left the tool charge as it was for the bid and added the upcharge on future jobs. Same thing with T&M jobs. The thing I learned on T&M jobs was to do them as T&M plus jobs. The plus was my profit margin and depending on the job size could be fro 3 to 30% depending on the size of the job.

            I'm not sure if that was the right way to do it or not. By the time I figured it out I was nearly under anyway and decided working for the other guy was the best way to feed my family.

          5. Tim | Jun 25, 2009 08:39pm | #37

            If the tool doesn't pay for itself, you made a bad decision.

        2. Dave45 | Jun 18, 2009 04:57pm | #7

          In addition to the basic cost of the plasma cutter, somebody has to know how to tell the computer what to do, so it can control the cutter.That's almost never intuitive, so you either pop for some training (usually expensive), or waste lots of time and material while you figure it out (usually even more expensive) - lol

        3. DaveRicheson | Jun 18, 2009 05:07pm | #8

          >>But, if'n I could find a guy to build me a hood outta nice SS for my shop for $1200, I'd be all over it.

          You and me both.

          I've got a guy up the road from me that has a welding shop, but he can't fabricate sheet goods. I do any electrical repairs and carpentry work he needs done and he has yet to charge for fix'n the stuff I break.

          My duct work shop is actually part of one of the HVAC supply houses I use. The guy that runs it as an independent contractor for them and use to work counter sales for them. He has made enough $$ for them that when he ask to upgrade his equipment several years ago, they readily agreed. It is only a 6 man shop and they don't do installation. That is what makes them a profit group for the supply house. You draw it or give them a set of prints and they build it. You install or have another sub install. If there is a screw up after it leaves the shop, it is not thier problem.

          All in all it really keeps the fabrication cost down when compared to the HVAC companies that run thier own shops and do thier own installation. I have been able to afford heavier gauge metal for my own work with the savings. (least that what I tell DW)

    2. JustinT | Jun 19, 2009 01:37am | #17

      Project manager here for a large sheet metal contractor. Im not real familiar with the little guys but for small work I figure $250 per fitting for galvanazed 24 gauge. Straight duck is $175 for a 5' joint of slip and key for something that small and given the small quantity your looking at i would burn the whole batch on the plasma cutter. But if your looking at a small shop that doesnt have a plasma then their using hand layout to make your square to rounds and that takes some time. Its a three piece assembly with propably 50 variable dimensions that have to be transferred around the part. So the cost doesnt seem out of line to me.

      Justin

    3. shellbuilder | Jun 19, 2009 05:14am | #21

      I just built two houses, the range ducting took less than 1 hour to install, both had 12 foot runs with 3 elbows. It cost me 200.00 

      1. danski0224 | Jun 19, 2009 01:29pm | #23

        Well, that's good for you.

        My experience with builders is they cheapen out everything they can and hope it holds together long enough to squeak out of the 1 year warranty... and when there are problems, the sub has to eat them... but could never charge enough to do the job properly (low bid, you know) the first time.

        1. shellbuilder | Jun 22, 2009 04:01am | #29

          Ridiculous, I do the same duct work that 99.9% of other builders do. 

          1. danski0224 | Jun 22, 2009 04:17am | #30

            And if you evaluate the operating performance of those systems, you will see that the delivered measured performance is substandard.

          2. shellbuilder | Jun 25, 2009 05:43am | #32

            Price does not equate value nor does it equate quality. 

          3. fingersandtoes | Jun 25, 2009 07:53am | #33

            My first thought as a designer was someone screwed up if the ducting for a rangehood costs anything near $1200. It's bad enough people blow that on the hood never mind the ducting. This kind of bling, whether on display in a kitchen or hidden in the walls has nothing to do with fine homebuilding.

          4. danski0224 | Jun 25, 2009 03:15pm | #34

            I have installed $7k Swedish made vent hoods.

          5. fingersandtoes | Jun 25, 2009 06:39pm | #35

            Sure it's possible to spend extraordinary amounts on all sorts of things. Every part of the house can become a money sink. But don't you see a sort of disconnect occurring here? Many posters bemoan clients who cheap out or don't appreciate the importance of craftsmanship for not spending big dollars on their ducts or bathrooms. As the same time this board is full of posts asking for advice on saving money or worrying about losing their jobs. Why is there one rule for them and one for us?

            Getting back to your Swedish range hood. Considering that all the data shows a steadily decline in the people who cook or use their kitchen for more than re-heating store bought food. Why make a fetish out of something where a $400 model would perform perfectly well?

          6. betterbuiltnyc | Jun 25, 2009 06:52pm | #36

            Yeah. We live in an age when folks will spend more on stainless appliances than they will on everything else in the kitchen, or even the labor to do a gut kitchen with relocated fixtures. Crazy.

          7. danski0224 | Jun 26, 2009 05:42am | #41

            The people that have the money to blow on a $7500 kitchen vent hood live on a scale that I barely comprehend. It probably costs $3k a month just to keep the lights on in that 17,000 square foot home. We won't get into property taxes... gas bills... etc

            To them, that vent hood is probably equal to me finding $10 in the couch cushions.

            Yes, it was mostly bling... but they have the money, and provided employment for me and a job for the company I was working for.

            And yes, they had a crappy HVAC system... but you can't show off ductwork to your friends like a hood centerpiece. 

          8. fingersandtoes | Jun 26, 2009 07:06am | #42

            Amazing. $7500 would pay my heat and power bills for more than eight years.

          9. Tim | Jun 26, 2009 09:37pm | #43

            You can heat, cool, light, cook, etc, for less than $80/mo? In Canada? It costs me more than that to run the pump for my pond.

          10. fingersandtoes | Jun 27, 2009 02:41am | #44

            It isn't really fair to call Vancouver Island part of Canada. The climate is a lot like Northern California. My 1200 sf, not particularly well insulated house uses about $75 a month of hydro. I do have a wood stove, but I am lazy and only burn a cord each winter, so throw in $140 for that. It works out about the same per year as 6 oz of BC Bud.

          11. danski0224 | Jun 27, 2009 03:12pm | #46

            I understand that.

            In my experience, very few builders I have worked with provide true value and quality to the homeowners.

            Yes, the homes look nice... on the surface.

            More often than not, every corner that can be cut, is... as long as the appearance of being well constructed and having a "warranty" is maintained. Any builder that operates soley on a low bid model is doing the same thing.

            Using lowest *qualified* bid or providing a complete list of specifications/substitutions is not the same thing.

            Of course, the subs that get the low bid jobs must make a profit, so the work is performed in a manner that the amount of money allows. Subs that have a "performance based" (aka piecework) pay scale encourage further cuts so the person doing the work thinks they are making more money.

            Because the original topic is on the mechanical systems, I will say that ventilation/HVAC systems take a beating in residential construction because there is no bling. The clear majority of systems are installed to meet a builder price point, never "value" or "quality".

            Unfortunately, warm and cold air is still produced by poorly installed and performing HVAC equipment. Homeowners think it "works" when the thermostat is turned on and air moves.

            The insults provided to the mortgage payers from "value driven" builders comes in the form of high utility bills, shortened equipment life and poor indoor comfort.

            The extra $500 to $1000 it costs to do a "typical" forced air HVAC system 80% right upfront costs many times that in (1) operational costs over the life of the system or (2) to fix later.

            But who cares, right? I won't be living here long.. or... it's a rental.

            Not much value there... unless you are counting the value that stays in the pocket of the builder.

            It costs less upfront to do it right than throw high dollar bandaids on it later.

          12. shellbuilder | Jun 27, 2009 04:09pm | #47

            You can spend extra money on everything. In fact tere would be some who would say that what you propose for a ducted range is sub-standard. In 35 years I havent seen any range ducting self destruct on its own. You know I could use 2x10 studs and quad pane windows, 50" of insulation and only slate roofs...so wheres the market for that. When I hear subcontractors complaining about what builders profit, I have one answer, you borrow yourself silly to build and pay subs and then wait wait wait to sell and see how much fun it is. I work with my hands , so I have advantages, the cigar smoking Cadillac driving image you have is distorted. 

          13. Tim | Jun 25, 2009 08:46pm | #38

            "I do the same duct work that 99.9% of other builders do."

            You ran it in flex?

          14. Pelipeth | Jun 27, 2009 01:16pm | #45

            That does NOT make it right.........

  3. wallyo | Jun 18, 2009 05:21pm | #9

    Mack

    You did not say but some in this post are assuming it is Stainless steel. Is the quote for stainless or Al or galzenized what gauge?

    Is the finial price fabrication or fabrication and insallation?

    What gauge?

    I just picked up a small sheet of scrape SS from a local scrape yard it was 2.75 per pound. Don't know if that was a good price but I would think it was cheaper then a metal supply house for new stuff.

    Wallyo

    1. mackzully | Jun 18, 2009 06:03pm | #10

      Ah, Wallyo, good point. What I am talking about is just the duct work, which I had assumed was just galvanized steel, but it sounds like people might be using SS for ductwork??I am NOT talking about the hood itself, just the sheetmetal ductwork. It is basically a wide in-wall run to get from the first floor through the second and to the roof (with a remote fan unit). Then the fittings to get from the 3X17 main duct to the hood, and to the fan. It does include installation, but being that the walls and ceilings are all open, I can't imagine it taking more than an hour or so to install. Z

      1. wallyo | Jun 18, 2009 08:15pm | #13

        Correct on the galvanized if concealed. I think some were thinking it might be exposed and for looks SS. Sounds high to me then. Most ducting I run into I can handle my self. Several years ago I had about a 2' X 2' x 2'
        custom duct made for an swamp cooler ran all of 28.00. or 14.00 a foot even if yours is 20 feet long that is just 392.00 A day even to install 30.00 per hour one guy 8 hours that's 240.00. Total 632.00.Unless for some odd reason he thinks you want SS, then 1200 sounds close. Get another bid, could be just one of those things they don't want to deal with and if they bid high and get it, it's pure gravy.Wallyo

        1. danski0224 | Jun 19, 2009 01:48am | #18

          $30 per hour on the check for the employee... what does the employer have to charge? I bet at least double to reach a breakeven point. 

          1. wallyo | Jun 19, 2009 03:58am | #19

            If the employee is making 15.00 per hour the employer is covered is he not.Lets say it is 30.00 per hr including benifits, tack on another 30.00 for the employer even at a 60.00 shop rate, that is 870.00 for the whole job not 1200. As I said the OP should just get a second bid. None of us are there. What town or state is this in, union country (I am not knocking union just might add to cost a bit).We just have to go with our gut and mine tells me 1200 is a bit high he used this guy on the first job was happy with the price. Maybe he bid the first job short and is trying to make it up, might be he just does not want to be bothered with this little job.Edited 6/18/2009 9:00 pm by wallyo

            Edited 6/18/2009 9:00 pm by wallyo

          2. mike_maines | Jun 19, 2009 04:58am | #20

            That's about what I thought too.  Sounds a bit on the high side, but it could be fair depending on the situation.  Running ductwork properly isn't nearly as quick and easy as one would think if they haven't done it.

      2. Piffin | Jun 19, 2009 12:55am | #16

        "I can't imagine it taking more than an hour or so to install. "Re-imagineyou gotta get it there, unload it and the tools out of the van, carry it and tools up one or two storeys and hook it all up and down, seal it all off....An hour for how many guys? 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. JeffinPA | Jun 26, 2009 05:31am | #40

          Re taking  an hour to set the ductwork.

          Great points Piffin

          was looking at responses wondering who was going to call him on that.

          Lots of stuff can get done real quick and perfectly when you are looking at the plans.

          I've seen contractors (employees including my x employee) get nothing done in the 1st hour after arriving on the job)

  4. Plancher_Fasciitis | Jun 18, 2009 09:55pm | #14

    "I just heard back from them, roughly $1200! for 10' run of 3"x17", then a couple of adapters to 6" round, then some 90s and 45s to get around everything."

    That bid is high by ten bucks.



    Edited 6/18/2009 2:56 pm ET by Plancher_Fasciitis

  5. User avater
    CapnMac | Jun 19, 2009 08:32am | #22

    Another guess is that the connections are different versus the hvac ductwork in the house, too.

    You want (or local code may specify) different connections on kitchen hood ductwork than you are expecting,  This can be much slower to make up in the field, too.

    Have you checked that the material for the sheetwoork is galvanized?  And at what gauge?  It may be that local code requires something different, and the shop knows this.

    Or not.

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
  6. danski0224 | Jun 19, 2009 01:43pm | #24

    Hee hee, I wonder where this thread would have gone if it went something like...

    I need this wonky custom size window built and installed, and the carpenter wants $1200 to do it.

    The same guy did a great job on my crown moulding... but $1200 for a little window? Seems a little steep, dontcha think?

    Anyone got any recommendations for cheaper if this is out of line?

    :)   :)

    1. mackzully | Jun 19, 2009 04:59pm | #25

      I know. But I really do appreciate the input and the 'math' that everyone is talking about here. It is easy, when working for yourself, to forget how expensive a business really is to run. This is definitely enlightening for me, so thank you everyone who has commented, it's given me something to think about. Funny thing is, it is a fight I have everyday with my clients at my day job, they don't understand why it costs so much to run our operations... Well, when I've got $45,000/mo in datacenter fees...But truly, thank guys. I'm going back to them to get more details on the install, hopefully this will clear up my pricing questions. But at least now, I can *see* how it could be that expensive...Z

      1. Plancher_Fasciitis | Jun 19, 2009 05:15pm | #26

        Here's how I view it: if you do good work, you owe it to the market you're in to charge what it takes to stay in business. If you're all about cheap then the world is better off without you.

        Edited 6/19/2009 10:15 am ET by Plancher_Fasciitis

        1. mackzully | Jun 19, 2009 06:54pm | #27

          No doubt, but at the same time you need to be able to sell your pricing. This company in particular was able to sell me on their pricing for the HVAC install. They were direct, interested, gave me excellent information, and performed all the due diligence that I expected. I had also collected quotes from other companies, so I had a good understanding of the market price and the variance. So I think I perhaps jumped the gun on this one. I really need to call a couple other sheetmetal shops in the area and see what they want for it, but with type of stuff, I simple have no clue what reasonable pricing is... And that always worries me, because then my bullcrap detector has nothing good to operate on.Z

        2. User avater
          Huck | Jun 22, 2009 05:07pm | #31

          Here's how I view it: if you do good work, you owe it to the market you're in to charge what it takes to stay in business. If you're all about cheap then the world is better off without you.

          I love it!  Great quote.  I go up against this ALL THE TIME: I'm a firefighter, this is just a sideline, so I can charge less since all I need to make is beer money... My wife has a good job and pays the rent, I'm just making money to buy my toys with...I'm not licensed, so I can charge less than the licensed guys...etc, etc. 

          My wife sells antiques and used books, and its even worse in her market.  Whats funny 'tho is the dilletantes in the antiques market usually charge MORE, then sit on their merchandise forever and a day.  What kills her there is that they usually pay way too much for their stuff - so the estate sellers don't price at true wholesale, 'cuz they know the dumber dealers will pay too much.

          But the used books market, hoo-boy - they're charging $1 on amazon and hoping to make it up on shipping!!  When a real seller who has to make a living finds a rare book, they try to make their week's wage on the one book!  Market has really polarized - cheap stuff gets cheaper, rare stuff goes way high.  Not unusual for her to get $50 - $75 on one book - just not common enough to pay the rent!View Image"...everyone needs to sit on a rock, listen to the surf, and feel the ocean breeze in their face once in awhile."

          cambriadays.com

  7. Sasquatch | Jun 26, 2009 12:52am | #39

    I'm renovating my kitchen, and capable of doing all of the work.  I'm also getting older.  My time is worth more and more.  So, I thought I would go to a local cabinet shop to have a small countertop (26" X 46") manufactured for my island.  This is a simple countertop, formica etc.  I didn't even tell him I wanted a cutout for a 15" x 15" sink.  The guy doesn't know me.  I told him that if my wife liked the countertop, we would want them to do the countertops for the whole kitchen.

    He hems and haws and gives me a figure of $580 or more.  No calculations, questions, etc. --- He did tell me that he could only get the formica in 4 X 8 sheets.

    So I said thanks.  I would get back to him.  I should say that I parked away from the shop so he would not see my $50K Dodge RAM.  I didn't want to get his hopes up that a true sucker had arrived.

    So I bought a 4 X8 sheet of MDF for $40, and ordered a 4 X 8 sheet of Formica, in my preferred color for $48.  The contact cement was about $10.  It took me two relaxed hours to make the countertop.

    I made allowances for his costs.  My final judgment was: gouging.

    How can you understand God if you can't understand people?  How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
    1. brownbagg | Jul 14, 2009 05:29pm | #49

      $580 is really a good deal.
      he has to figure
      material
      labor
      profit
      taxes
      insurane
      workman comp
      income taxes
      vehicle
      fuel
      tools
      maintance
      liabilityits really not a bad deal

      1. fingersandtoes | Jul 14, 2009 06:28pm | #51

        Sure but you could use that list to justify any price. Oh and you forgot:

        alimony

        traffic fines

        Friday beers

        new chrome rims

        annual Vegas trip

  8. mackzully | Jul 14, 2009 04:10pm | #48

    So not to open this back up again, but a neighborhood GC recommended another sheet metal shop to me, and this morning the shop called me back with the estimate for the sheet metal (no install): $339. So yes, I should have called around beforehand, as this demonstrates that the $1200 first quote was way high, I didn't think that there was over $800 in installation labor...

    Z

    1. mike_maines | Jul 14, 2009 06:05pm | #50

      http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=121432.3

      It will be interesting to see how the install goes. 

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