First off, I’m in the Kansas City, Missouri area of the country.
Second, I’m an architect working exclusively on commercial projects and have done zero residential projects.
My parents are recently retired, have purchased some land and we’re well along in designing them their retirement home. 2500 square feet, barrier-free, etc. etc. Not extravagant, but they definiately want “nice”. I’ve been constantly telling them $175-$200/SF completed (excluding land and of course, architectural) and they seem fairly comfortable with that. Due to the nature of our tastes, though, this is not going to be a conventional, neo-victorian tract looking house that everyone buys and then proudly states, “we built our own home”.
This house is going to probably have low-slope commercial roofing, it’s on a steep hillside and will probably have a portion floating above the ground on columns. It’s going to have a lot of glass to take advantage of an isolated, wooded site. If this thread goes anywhere, I’ll be happy to post some concept renderings.
Here’s the problem: This project is too small and specialized (and too well finished) for the commerical contractors I am familiar with, too unconventional and customized for a typical “builder”. I’ve been arguing with my father for years to let me just act as the GC, but all of you contractors here (and I suppose me, too) know how naive that may be for my first house. This being my parent’s house (and not mine), the stakes are just too high for me to risk making mistakes. And while I’m confident with commercial details and complications, I’ve done enough work on my own houses to know that residential is a whole different ball game.
Which leads me to the meat of this topic:
Besides just opening up the phone book, how does one go about finding a builder? Due to the nature of my work, I do not unfortunately have a lot of contacts in the architectural field to tap for advice, so perhaps that’s out. I suppose I can call vendors and suppliers and get advice that way.
However, it seems to me that if we use a “systems based” approach to building (Foundation contractor, then SIPS, then roof sub, then window door subs, then MEP, etc. etc.) that it’d just be easier for me to do it myself, live with a few cost-related and time-related mistakes and sleep easier knowing I only have myself to blame for mistakes and mess-ups.
Being an architect and working in somewhat of a critical vacuum at this stage, makes it so that I’m hesitant to turn over a project to someone unqualified to execute it correctly.
So, who does good work in Kansas City?
Thanks for letting me spout off.
Replies
So let me get this straight - by "system based" you mean that you basically want to general the job, and find some qualified subcontractors to work for you? Doesn't sound like you're looking for a general contractor, but your heading "How to find a builder" means just that. I'm sure there are lots of experienced answers to your question, I just wonder if you could clarify the question. Are you looking for qualified subcontractors, or a qualified builder (general contractor)?
Perhaps the term "system based" is a bit naive. Basically what I meant by that comment is that I'm debating myself about whether or not I want to try to GC the work myself, or hire a GC to just take care of everything.PROS:
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I act as GC: Well, I guess my client saves a little money (I'm working for my parents for free), I learn a great deal about the construction side of things, My dad gets a little more jobsite control, there is more transparency with the money. I maintain more control over the finished project.Dad hires a GC: Somebody who actually knows what they're doing gets it done, project completed faster, project responsibility doesn't fall on me, project budget is maybe a little more fixed from the beginning. Only adds 10-20% to the project cost.CONS:
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I act as GC: Everything could fall apart. Errors and omissions destroy the budget. I have to deal with the 'rents on every little detail. I have to do all of the handholding with the client. I don't get the best pricing or the best subs. Every time the faucet drips, it's my fault.Dad hires a GC: I lose control of the project, design gets mangled and value-engineered to destruction, Adds 10-20% to the project costs, Corners get cut, things don't get done right, every detail that the GC decides they don't want to figure out or do, it's because of the wingnut architect. Lots of jobsite politicking.SUMMARY:
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I'd much prefer the old man hires someone else to build (GC) the project, but I want to be sure it's someone he can trust, and that I can work with.
There are many ways to find decent contractors and I'd strongly recommend against G.C.ing the job yourself. Figure out what you want to build (which sounds like you have a good idea) and start shopping around for contractors. Do contractors have to be licensed in the state you reside? Is there a local building association or a NARI in the area? That is a good place to start also.
Don't you have an association for architects? Wouldn't some architect colleagues of yours possibly know some good residential builders?
But cold calling will get you some interesting information to start with, narrow down your list, go look at their work; meet them, call references, etc. NEver devalue the power of an easily generated list: the phone book. Word of mouth is a powerful tool and sometimes the best guys work on referral only and a contractor you call may not do what you want, but he/she may know someone who will and refer you to them.
In addition, you can go online and google "find a contractor" and you will get services that will match you with builders.
If I were you, I'd figure out what I'd want from a G.C. to work with me, what I'm willing to pay top and bottom for the project and then start calling, researching and interviewing.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone didn't do that first, I'd be rich.
Also, give your final choices a set of plans with a serious error but one that would require some knowledge of structural in order to notice, ask for a bid and see who spots the error, asks you about it, solves the problem, never calls back and who "fudges it". Timliness in giving you the bid, professionalism of the bid itself, how much time they spend getting information from you and how they deal with the "problem" will tell you a lot.
You are a professional yourself, so consider how you expect people to judge you when they consider you for hire.
Try the local building dept and local realtors for good builders.
Lumber yards and supply houses too.
Drive around. Invest a couple of w/e's scouring the territory for a dwelling under construction that wows you with a neat clean site and a well built structure.
Good luck.
Might try some local churches a s well.
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Try the local building dept ......"
Eric,
Around here (Wisconsin) it's considered a conflict of interest for a building dept. official to recommend anyone. They could loose their job.
Jon
There are 5 breaktime members shown on the Member Map in or around Kansas City. Have you tried any of them?http://www.frappr.com/breaktimemembersOr e-mail Sylvia Richardson with the NAHB Builder 20 Program to see if they have a member there. My club does not. Members of these clubs have made a strong committment to their business and although this does not indicate quality, it does indicate longevity. Her e-mail is Richardson, Sylvia [[email protected]] Let her know that Luke with Blue Sky Building Company in the Dream Team 20 Club referred you to her.
Nice to see an Arch asking questions BEFORE getting started.
Hiring a GC or Builder accomplishes the following:
a) Provides a cushion between the Client/ Arch/ person emotionally connected to the project and the trades.
b) Takes on the burden of scheduling and rescheduling when trades don't show up or weather does.
c) Spreads the Cost (time and $).
d) Provides the Client with a variety of Subs of varying abilities, quality and pricing.
e) Clout - promise/ opportunity for future work as an incentive to the Sub.
If you cold call, regardless of who your source is, you will get little attention from the quality and in-demand Subs. You may get lucky on a few, but it will have a cost in time and lost leads.
Instead, find out who the subs are working for. You should find 2-3 big hitters in the community. Pick the forth. He/ she will want to break into the top echelon and may consider your hybrid project the proper springboard. He/ she may see it as being a truly custom home and an introduction to new materials.
Hope this helps. Good luck and keep us posted throughout the process - maybe even have chapter threads for each phase of construction beginning with design development.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Get little attention from the quality and in-demand Subs. You may get lucky on a few, but it will have a cost in time and lost leads.
Go to the lumberyards in the area and find out who there has been dealing with the contractors for several years, Maybe try to buy the guy/gal lunch and describe as you have done here. Ask who they would recommend as being capable for a job like that.
That is your short list. If you do three yards and one name keeps popping up - bingo.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
good question ... but I am left wondering what your sq ft numbers are based on.
I say this out of experience ...
over the last coupla years ... I have been contacted by a few architects ... that do "mostly commercial" ... to bid some projects of various size.
Not one had been built ... at least not by me. And I do know that the few I've followed up on have never been built by anyone.
All I've seen have been way .. way .. way underpriced in the planning stage by the commercial architects trying to play residential remodeler.
That might be the problem ... all mine have been for remodeling projects ... from master bed/bath conversions up to doubling the size of an existing house thru large scale additions.
Maybe new construction would lead to better results and more accurate base numbers.
But first step ... verify your numbers as soon as possible.
I've had both potential clients and the architects that can't add get mad at me because the architect low balled the project ... all the while just trying to keep a commercial client happy by pretending they understand residential remodeling.
I don't pretend to know the first thing about commercial acrhitecture ... but I do know my own prices ... and I haven't been anywhere near close on any of them.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You ask where the (SF / dollar) numbers are coming from. I'd say offhand that it's based on readings from this forum, trade mags, glossy design journals, etc. etc. I haven't shopped the plans around yet, so NO, there isn't anything scientific yet.
My client (my parents), while well meaning, are like any other first-time home builders, they have Mercedes tastes and wishes while they have more of a Volvo budget. So from the very beginning, I've been very pessimistic with their numbers, so as not to get their hopes up.
The plans they were starting out with were in the range of 3500 square feet (one floor, my dad's going to be in a wheelchair sooner or later) and when I had them start thinking 700-750k complete, well that got them to start thinking about downsizing.
So at this early stage, to get them thinking about 400-500k for a 2500 SF plan, maybe that will give me some wiggle room budget-wise. In my experience, I'm very used to working with a client, giving them the pie-in-the-sky design that they are really happy with, submitting that for preliminary bids, having the disappointment of looking at real numbers (real HIGH numbers), and then redesigning and/or cutting things out to get the budget down to something realistic.
----------------
Anecdote:
Back in 1999, the first project I worked on in Kansas City was the new parking garage to serve City Hall employees. Initial budget was $20 million. Me and the other project architect came up with a really trick concept that involved occupant-load sensing and a motorized, interactive facade that in essence communicated the availabilty of parking in the garage to people blocks away so they could anticpate their parking choices(long story...). The client (city architect) loved it and pushed it along to the point that we were getting some preliminary bids on the system. $3 million for the facade alone. With that number and the rest of the preliminary bids, we were looking at $22 million total for the project, so of course the trick facade had to go. 18 months and 3-4 redesigns later, we finally have an architectural package of precast concrete and perforated stainless steel that everyone is happy with that came in at $1.2 million. 2 months after that, when the 3 competitive bids were opened, what do you know, the lowest one came in at $16.5 million. So it seems to me we could have afforded the trick facade, and saved 18 months of time if we'd just pushed the GCs harder. (There may have been some politics involved with the whole deal that I neither know about nor care to...) The garage as it is today is a nice building, don't get me wrong, and I'm proud to have worked on it. With the trick facade it could have been spectacular. (In the true sense of the word.)
-----------------------------
Point of anecdote:
My client and I have a design we want to see done. They have a budget. If we can't bring in this design within their budget, then I'm fully prepared to get something as close as possible to work.
Congratulations (lucky dog). Sounds like a great opportunity to do something intriguing. Please include photos/scans of designs/models, would love to see them.Another possible solution to finding a KC builder is to go to the websites for the other firms in the area and see what they've done. If anything looks good, call/email them and ask who the contractor was. You'll find colleagues to be pretty helpful, especially when you're complimenting their work. And it would be good to find a contractor who has experience with slightly 'unconventional' homes. Like Piffin said earlier, if you find one who matches what you've heard from other sources, that's your guy (or gal).360 Architects (in KC) has a branch here in Columbus and they'd gotten ahold of one of my resumes about a year ago. A couple of guys working there were people I had worked with at another firm and they talked me up. Went there for a chat with the principal, noticed that they had a house or two (in addition to all the arenas/stadiums). You might want to take a look at their site and contact them. Sure there are plenty of other firms in the area of that caliber as well.In an unrelated vein, your parking garage analogy struck a chord. We did a design for an automated garage here in Columbus that we're waiting to show to some city officials this winter. All automated, you drive in, step out, and a computerized delivery system stacks it on pallets similar to the storage shelves at a Lowe's or Home Depot. Used a lot in Europe and Asia, but only one in the 'states so far (New Jersey). The design turned out pretty cool as well . . . it's in a historic district and from the street it looks like any other building, but beyond that it's covered in semi-translucent panels that allow people to watch their cars being stacked. Am nervous about it, rough estimate is $20,000/parking space (about twice for a conventional garage), but it's a tight site (no room for a conventional garage). Ah, well, best not to think about the term 'value engineering.' ;)
We had a mechanical stacking garage in downtown New Haven CT - at least 40 years ago. So how much more does it cost to do away with the attendant?
I always thought that was a great idea and have not seen another in the past 40 years.
Did some research on them because I wanted to be prepared for the 'what ifs.' Automatic garages have actually been around for awhile, albeit they were never widely popular. The first one in the U.S. was in Cincinnati . . . big warehouse/factory converted to a garage (sounds similar to the New Haven garage). There's another one currently operating in Washington D.C..The difference now (as i understand it) is A) computerization and B) redundancy. The computerized movements eliminate the need for any human interaction. The previous automated garages were also basically tweaked elevators. One system covered all movement, thus, if anything broke, everything stopped. Now the up/down, front/back and side-to-side movements are all controlled separately. And each garage has a number of lifts so if, for example, one up/down unit broke, the other units would still work and make up for it.From what i've read it's actually a fascinating process to watch. When all the units are operating at the same time it's like a giant 3D Tetris game. Since it's computerized all the cars can operate on tracks in any direction, all at the same time. Would probably give someone with a Lamborghini a heart attack. And the time from start to finish is only a minute or two.Other benefits are less security issues, less maintenance (especially in the north where winter salt eats away at the concrete), no venting of exhaust fumes, no above-ground lighting, no emergency exits/stairs, smaller insurance premiums, tighter spaces, no road circulation, etc.. The biggest drawback appears to be the initial cost . . . about twice as much as a conventional garage (unless it goes below grade, then it comes out even or less). And also the 'fear factor' (i.e., unless a thousand other people have done it already, everyone else is afraid to touch it).
Ralph - You from New Haven? I grew up in Hamden.The Internet is getting smaller.FThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Good point (and this is coming from an architect). I've got a friend who's planning on doing his own house on a plot he and his wife own, and saw a model of his design during the summer. He told me the cost he was shooting for, and i could tell from the design that he'd never get it (even g.c.'ing it himself, which is a mistake IMO). He does mostly commercial work as well, and i directed him to this website to get some additional perspective for his project. I hope he does it.The prices Rasher quoted seem pretty realistic though.
"The prices Rasher quoted seem pretty realistic though. "
Yeah ... I didn't even give them a second look ... I'm not in that area so I wouldn't have a clue to begin with anyways ... my comments were to be very general.
commercial and residential seeming to be two different worlds.
I also know remodeling and new const are two very different worlds also ...
and I'd bet between those three variables ... is where all the money disappeared on the projects I've looked at. New Const Commercial to Residential remodeling ....
Poof ... the budget / time line is blown!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
http://www.kchba.org , the website for Kansas City Home Builders Association, a part of the NAHB (National Association of Homebuilders). It is a professional organization like the AIA.
Here in Houston we have a NAHB / GHHBA (Greater Houston Home Builders Association) Custom Builders Counsil as seperate from the volume and low budget tract home builders. This would be a good place to find a good builder for the project you described.
If you continue in residential work, you can become a member or as an architect an associate member, with great benefits of networking and resources of the many members.
Edited 12/28/2005 12:58 am ET by txlandlord
Hey, thanks for the link to the KCHBA. That's a resource I was not aware of.
Re: "How to find a builder?"
Not real hard.
Troll the drunk tanks, skid row, the gates of major penetenturies when they are letting out or just use your ears. Listen for the sounds of old ladies being pistol whipped and orphans crying. You could ask around but even most pimps and crack dealers, having some standards, are shy about admitting to knowing such degenerate beasts.
On the other hand you, being a discriminating sort, likely want a good one. That's a tough order to fill. Some say they they are extinct. I haven't seen one in years.
On the up side a builder isn't as bad as it can get. They can go big time and become developers. Hell itself had to install a sub basement just for them.
If you think I exaggerate build your project and then come back here when its all over and reread this post. You were warned.
4Lorn1: Johny, is that you? A little on the negative side today aren't we?
Johnny has left the building!
Otherwise he could slap this thing together and pocket some easy cash, you know, there isnt any real skill in what we do!!!
Doug
Yeah, maybe I can get Johnny to come build it for me, he can deliver quality for CHEAP! And he'll get rich.
Rasher,
"If this thread goes anywhere, I'll be happy to post some concept renderings."
Please do. And please try and get the file size down to under 100KB for us dial-uppers.
"This project is too small and specialized (and too well finished) for the commerical contractors I am familiar with, too unconventional and customized for a typical 'builder'. "
Makes me wish I was established and in KC.
SamT
Here are some pretty sketchy images. Putting the living area up on columns creates a sheltered outdoor area underneath and reduces the amount of basement enclosure. Truth is, the basement probably won't be finished or used (Dad's going to be in a wheelchair sooner or later). The first floor footprint is about 2500sf not including the garage. The basement area is probably 1500sf. I know, I know, there's a ton of glass which is super expensive and that's going to have to be reduced, as is the ceiling height. We're talking 12' in the living area, 10' in the bedroom pavillion, and 8-9' in all of the auxiliary spaces. It's all designed in anticipation of SIP or likewise unit-module construction, including the roof panels. One of the images shows sloped roof panels (I think 3:12, but I can't remember), the others show my preference for flat roof panels. Pretty much the same floorplan, though.
Just a thought - Are you looking for a construction manager or a GC? A good CM will handle the daily details, still have the contacts and may fit your needs. I won't say they will be cheaper, or how much so.
Try the local chapter of the AIA. At one time, I was an associate member, and I met some people there that were helpful and good to know. (You know they do allow commercial archi's in there too. <G>)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I'm intrigued. In a residential project, what are the differences between a CM and a GC?
With a CM, who is the one getting bids from subs? In my experience, it's the CM who acts as the "owner's rep" to the GC, which is a role that I've always thought should be part of an architect's service.
Depending on who you hire as the CM, they could be the one getting the bids. Frankly, I would expect them to, in this scenario since you seem to feel that you lack the necessary contacts. But, if you are comfortable soliciting and talking to the contractors based on your experience, you could do it. You are right that the CM typically acts as owner's rep. I don't see any big difference between commercial and residential projects, except granted it's a little unusual to use a CM in a "small" residential. Their job is still the same, just the scope ($) is smaller.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Based on the renderings you posted, you'd better start boosting the budget or reducing the amount of glass- especially the butt-glazed corners. There's very little "structure" left from what I can see, which would dictate steel frames to carry all of the floor/roof loads. At that point, SIPS would be pointless, since there's very little wall left to begin with.
Residential structural steel work isn't cheap. Most GC's are afraid of it, or wouldn't know where to start, and the commercial guys who are willing to do it are usually miscellaneous metals guys who's prices are higher than true structural guys (their crews aren't set up for production erection).
Bob
It is going to cost you a fortune to have the landscaping finished out in those nice clean steps - not to mention that it is really hard to get the grass to grow on those vertical surfaces. <g> ;-P
Seriously - nice looking place. I like the chimney out there acting as a support for that flying room.
Cool.
I 'like' 3 best, as that would be the most technically challenging, "floating" (if very solidly) that space out there.
But, I also like the vertial "linearity" of the columns down the house mass in 5--just not across the 'floating' living area. That could be some bias from not wanting that sheltered space to ever (25-50 years from now) fitted up as some sort of screen porch.
As I consider the plan masses, I'm intrigued with having the structure be a SIP 'private' wing that intersects an engineered wood frame 'living' space (with SIP roof panels). Which would help get a bit more of both (desired) worlds.
'Course, I had a metal image of a couple of four gluelams runing from house to f/p mass, and floor trusses cantilevered through them (top chord bearing on the gluelam). But, I realized that Bosshog might through sharp objects at me <g> for having an "archy" thought like that . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I like it.I'm wondering why you're shying away from your commercial contractors. Exterior looks pretty danged commercial to me. Certainly seems like the shell would be well served by someone with that kind of knowledge , experience, and contacts. As far as the fit and finish being beyond a commercial contractor...I've been on a lot of high end commercial trim jobs. Some of the best custom cabinet companies I've worked with do a lot of this stuff, and very well.Good luck, seems like a great project. Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
GC it yourself as a last resort.If it were me, I'd drive around and look for homes that have construction elements similar to your plan. When you find one, knock on the door and find out who designed and or, built it.The leaves are down, happy hunting.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
You're gonna drop close to a million to pull that off.
Sorry to be so cynical.
Why not build your parents a nice cozy and comfy conventional type of home that will easily be resold?
Just a thought. It's a cool looking house, but I don't "get"it.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Going to be interesting to heat/cool. Glass is notoriously hard to insulate. The higher surface areas don't help.Wiring, plumbing and other utilities are going to be hard to route and run. Plan on them being at least 30% longer than normal with matching, or better, increases in materials and labor. Longer also means higher voltage, pressure and airflow losses with a trade off between larger duct, wiring, plumbing lines, more intricate design or lowered efficiency.And the fishbowl effect is going to be the single most pervasive feeling once the sun goes down. Failing to put on a robe going to check for leftovers and the entire neighborhood will be able to 'guess your religion'.But what the hell. I'm not building it and I sure won't be living in it. Takes all kinds. With luck no contractor will touch it and he can go back to the drawing board. Lacking luck a contractor, looking to milk a ill considered 'labor of love' for profit, will sweet talk his way in and start stuffing the job with like-minded subs. The pumping will continue until the wallet and dream get into a fight. More than one person has had the dream win only to declare bankruptcy shortly after the project is done. Losing the home and penury are both possible outcomes.But hey I'm an optimist.
But hey I'm an optimist.
Gee, ya mean we actually agree on this?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
To address some points:A million bucks? Well, your guess is as good as mine at this point, but that works out to something like $400/SF. I don't think I've ever seen a project that expensive ever in any of the glossy design mags I've perused, and I can't see how what I'm proposing at this point is really all that fancy. I don't have any expensive metal siding, metal roofing, no really advanced structure, no structural glazing, and the finishes are good to be nice, but not outlandish. I'd be truly shocked if numbers came in at a million dollars from a GC who was truly interested in building the project.Neighbors? There are no neighbors. It is a heavily wooded site, and the nearest house (at least on the view side of the house) is something like 800 feet and about 80 trees away. Even with the leaves down, you can't see that much detail from the nearest neighbor's house. The views you've seen are from the Southeast, looking to the northwest. These are the elevations that are heavily glazed. The western elevation faces the street (150' away) and don't have much in the way of glazing, those spaces are mostly closet and utility spaces.MEP: Well, I assume that since this is a one story building, most of the electric, mechanical, and plumbing are going to be run under the floor. Granted, the "money shot" I've shown you all here shows a great deal of glass, and little in the way of wall area, but those columns between the windows are 24-28" wide and can easily be furred out to run electric and small scale ductwork. The basement finished floor elevation, at this point is about 11' below the primary finished floor, so that gives enough room for floor structure, ductwork and plumbing, and a suspended (gyp bd.) ceiling at 8 to 9'.So, while I appreciate the good natured skepticism and cynical remarks, what I'm really here for is the advice of some more experienced than I in this field. Maybe it does turn out to be ridiculously expensive and we have to scrap the whole design and start over. Won't be the first time for this project, and in the interest of providing the best house for my client, it's not really a problem for me to throw it away and start over. I hope you're wrong, though, as the folks are really getting into this one...
Where is the located?I am near Blue Springs.Sorry, but I dont' know of any builders that I could suggest for this. I do handyman type of work.
I'm really here for is the advice of some more experienced than I in this field.
And you're getting it.
I may be way off, but not by a whole lot. I'll call it by 10-15%; 20 tops.
You build that house (I'm saving the pics) you save my email. When you're all done, email me with the final bill, land and improvements included.
We'll see who's crazy.
Been there................
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
And I appreciate everyone's comments, make no mistake. This discussion has been quite valuable today.
And I don't believe I've called anyone here "crazy".
Onwards and forward!
This thread is interesting. There is no question that it costs more to build something non-standard. I don't see $400/ft as an unrealistic number at all for a unique custom home (I have worked on more than one that came in much higher)...but who knows? My main question with an expensive-looking design for two people: do they really need 2500 square feet on the main level? That is huge. Master bed/bath, kitchen/pantry/dining, great room, den, and powder room. Do those rooms need to be 2500? Guest rooms might be issue with aging parents - put them downstairs where dad doesn't need to go.You want a pimped out house on a reasonable budget - make it smaller.
Rasher,
Beautiful concept.
Let me see if I can articulate some of the issues we all are seeing here.
Glass: 5K'-6K' double or triple glazed argon filled, low-E, with reflective outer film. Required to keep heating and cooling bills closer to reasonable. $20 sqft? = $120K.
Floor structure: Going to need beams across the narrow dim from column to column with short (8') joists for the floor and the ceiling.
Lateral strength of the living/dining space: As is, there is none. I would like to see that horizontal band above eye level be about 4' tall, and even then it will require stress sheathing inside and out, like a box beam. Either the roof is lateraly structural or the chimney will need additional steel and concrete to provide bracing for that end of the building.
If the main floor and the roof was engineered right, they could provide the lateral strength you need. KC doesn't get earthquakes very often, but when it does, it's a doozy. (See.)
Stonework: I would look into using form molds to make faux stone that is integral with the structural component. Masons are muy expensive for basically esthetic work.
CM: $3K-$4K/month for at least 6 months, probably 12 months. $18K to $50K, and I would be very leery of a CM who thought that his talent and OH was only worth $3K and who said he could do it in 6 months.
There is half your budget just for glass, special structural needs and the CM.
SamT
Thanks for the images. The designs are great. Personally prefer 'sketch 5,' but think 'sketch 3' is more realistic. #5 has a lot of big ticket items. Flat roof (meaning interior drains), large unobstructed sheets of glass, glass guardrails, steel structure, 2 massive chimneys, lots of stone, etc.. And being on a sloping site in the middle of nowhere doesn't help. Contractors need roads, staging areas, utilities, etc.. Think this is what a lot of the comments are addressing. If you're hearing them on this discussion board, you'll be hearing them in KC also. Maybe look at using more stock items, change in materials (4" split face cmu or roman brick for stone?), etc.. And start looking at actual window frames and locating downspouts . . . things like that can kill a design if not addressed. Please note, these are just my silly opinions, take it or leave it. It's a good start, keep the thread going as you progress (always good to see something unique).
Actually, the project is about 5 minutes north of downtown Kansas City, and about 1/2 mile south of an interstate exit, so access is VERY easy. The area behind the house at the top of the slope is a large grassy flat that provides plenty of room for material storage and staging.I like the idea of throwing general numbers at various subcomponents (Roof area x SF cost = Roof Price ; Window area x SF cost = window price). I'll get into the CAD software here in the next few days and start getting some area breakdowns.Lateral bracing has always been an enemy of mine and I'm well aware of the problems this design poses. I imagine that with the renderings shown, the tall living area is going to require a rigid $teel frame. I suppose I need to cut the glass area down and provide an uninteruppted piece of wall 4' long from floor to roof to make a shear panel on both sides. The other thing that needs to happen, probably, is to eliminate the cantilever at the overhang, hmmm? I imagine that fireplace mass would support a couple of steel or LVL beams running back to the basement foundation and then span between them with 20' TJIs or similar.
sounds like your proposed building location is in possibily a bit rural area, in that kind of area you often find g cs who have done both residential and commercial work which could be both helpful to you
I am a developer and gc but i no longer build homes in my own developement , now i let the buyers hire hire their own builder or be their own gc them selves
I consider it to be a "fools paradise" to be your own gc and i have seen it done many times and not once did it appear to have went good
Most feel if they handle the gc work they will save so much the can add a whole lot of extras and not really cost any more (a joke}
A good gc should be able to often save you his cost aand a lot of head aches especially if you are holding down a full time job at the time
I have never had one tell me they would do it again and in some case they ended up divorced due to bickering and finances putting pressure on them
Right now i am listening to hammers banging on the latest diy gc trying to keep his project going that has been nothing but trouble from the get go
eg; First hoe operator dug hole 3' off level before he decided he dident have the ram he said he had to take out the rock and just left
next the owner brought in a hoe and a ram but the companys trucks were all tied up so they couldent haaul away the debris
I found him a dump location and a hoe and trucks but advised him to put a dozer at the other end in case the trucks got stuck , he ignored it aand they got stuck as a result a half day was lost getting the dozer floated in with a operator = 2 tri-axles sitting plus a hoe .
I tried to tell this guy that his brother who is a framer of tract homes that dident make him a general contractor but he dident want to hear it
they are currently shingling the roof that was supposed to been done 3 weeks ago even though it quite mild at 28 degrees F and the freezing rain is over for the day
the list of screw ups so far are normal on average for a diy gc as i told the buyer its the reason most gcs have grey hair and earn their money LOL
To tell the truth, the assumptions that you brought up about people working as their own GC ("I can get more for less", "I'll save money") are exactly the assumptions I have being operating on when considering this project.
As it now stands, I'm giving up the idea of subbing everything myself. I think I'd rather limit my responsibilities to detailing and specifying.
I've read plenty of horror stories here to make me see that light...
hmmmmm.......Don't think you can build in that neighborhood for less than a million and that house ain't gonna fit in with all the fake french mansions there.
Well, there isn't any neighborhood. There is a bunch of crappy tract houses surrounding to the north side, and a couple of goat farm-ish looking compounds to the south. But this 3 acre peice is totally enclosed by a hillside and tons of trees. It's an interesting site, especially that it is about 5 minutes from downtown. (I-29 and 56th Street) We're not talking rural at all. Suburban at best.
Heh...though you was talking about that development just north of the river, can't remember the name right now, got the "Parkway" exit running through it. You know thme huge houses on the cliffs?
Briarcliff!!!!!!!! That's what I was thinking of. now that I think about it your design would piss all them fuddy duddies off. You might wanna drive around the National near Parkville to see if anybody's building what you want. Used to do home theaters in Kansas City and i don't see your design going for anything under half a million. I also can't think of anyone off hand that might be able to build it. There is a teardown near me that got about ten huge concrete pillars in the middle that might be similar to what you want you do. Can't tell what the house looks like yet but can get you a builders name.
Yeah, I thought you were talking about Briarcliff. You're right, there's no way any of those people would accept a project like ours. Who wants to build there, anyway? The funniest thing about the houses at Briarcliff is that people paid millions for the sweetest view of the downtown ever and now they're building a big office park on the ridge in between the houses and their skyline view. Suckers!
Our site is further north along I-29, just north of the I-635 interchange. The first exit to the north of that is 56th street. On one side of the highway is little Houston Lake and on the other side is the 'rent's land.
What is the "National near Parkville"? There's a development just west of downtown Parkville that has a bunch of houses built on hillsides, some of them interesting. I think that dev was built out in the early to mid '80s. Can't remember the name though.
Where is this teardown you're talking about? The builder's name WOULD be helpful to me.
Thanks.
The teardown is on 71st street in Prairie Village maybe. I'll get an exact address and a builder for you if you want. The site caught my eye because it is an older neighborhood and looks like a conventional stick framed house except for these huge piling like colums rising out of the back. Hmmmmm....mebbe this ought to be a What The Heck is this post gonna be positng.
"
Lateral bracing has always been an enemy of mine and I'm well aware of the problems this design poses. I imagine that with the renderings shown, the tall living area is going to require a rigid $teel frame. I suppose I need to cut the glass area down and provide an uninteruppted piece of wall 4' long from floor to roof to make a shear panel on both sides.
"Take a look at some of the Strong Wall product line (manufactured sheer wall systems) that Simpson has in their catalog. <http://strongtie.com/products/strongwall/index.html?source=hpnav> They might be a partial solution or at least get you more window than traditional constructon.
Question not related to your thread, but are you guys submitting an RFQ for the Ferrous Park Housing Competition in the Crossroads Arts District? Just ran across it, didn't know if you were interested in it. If so, here's a link.http://www.competitions.org/subscribe/pages.cfm?ID=11#fphc
Hey, thanks for the link to the Ferrous Park thing.
I happen to know "Stretch" as an acquaintance and didn't know about this project.
If read the more detailed brief at this link:
http://www.stretchsculpture.com/ferrouspark.html
you'll see that the project is pretty well already designed for you. Sounds like the competition is to see who can slap the best looking gingerbread on it. If you want to place well in the competition, make sure you slap on a bunch of Corten steel and giant chunks of broken plate glass, and you'll be a shoe-in.
Wierd, i used to work across the street from Stretch, talk about a "nice" neighbor. Think he's just weldin up a bunch of crap and laugh all the way to the bank.
Haha. You said it...
I occaisionaly work in Harrisonville and one time I was driving out there on South 71 past Truman Corners and I couldn't believe my eyes. The city of Grandview actually paid him to drop a couple of those monsters out there on some useless land next to the highway. Ugh! And don't even get me started bitching about the Extreme Home Makeover self-promotion...
Across the street? On Wyandotte? That would put you either in the Knoll Design shop or El Dorado.
Nope across Locust at Tummons Custom Woodworking. I'll look for a sign on that jobsite I was telling you about.
So I'm thinking that you're right there next to his parking lot where he and his buddy burned the paper mache car a couple of years ago during Mardis Gras, causing ultimate mayhem and a bunch of people to get pepper-sprayed. Jeez. Good neighbor, huh?
You have to consider if your design is buildable for the budget allowed. Chances are, that you are trying to make a statement house, which entails unusual materials and techniques. In this world specialist always costs more than standard, and quality more on top. There are any amount of things that could go wrong with this project, and lost time often means escalating costs. You need to simplify it so that you can use standard materials as much as possible, I would contact local architects doing residential work in that area for contractors, and do not judge the bid on price alone.
John or is it Mike…..
Please put your comments where the sun doesn’t shine.
Include your kobalt spam link while your at it.
Thanks!