I am considering buying the Porter Cable dry wall sander, #7800 to finisih a 30 x 36 two floor garage/shop/studio. Looking for feedback on this or any other dustless sanders for this project.
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I have one and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. It doesn't do the work on it's own but if you did a good taping job it will have you ready to paint with minimal dust in short order. Overhead work is best off a small scaffold. I'm 6'3 220 and it will give your arms a workout if you need to reach straight up and besides it does a much better job if you are reaching over.
I agree. Its a heck of a nice thing to have around. I think anymore the homeowners put more stock in how clean we keep things than the neat gizmo that does that. It will give your arms a work. Good call on that. Especially overhead. And it does take a little bit to get the hang of - you can oversand pretty easy, and pretty fast. All that's left for you and a block is touchups where it wont reach, like a ceiling corner.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I have it also and have been very happy with it. Not just any of your guys can use it though. Most folks will immediately start burning right through the tape job; it takes a practiced hand to get the feel of it. After you get used to what it does -you'll not want to do it any other way.
Of course, the system isn't complete without a kick-butt vac. I'd recommend you take a look at the Fein 9.55.13 vacuum. It runs about $250-300 - comparable to the Porter cable. What make's it better is the fact that has the tool actuated outlet on it that will accept 12-13 amp tools, whereas the PC is limited to about 7amps. Also, it is very quiet, quieter than the Porter Cable I'm sure.
Overall the Fein vac is just about perfect - truly multi-purpose and built like a tank.
Of course, if you like your tools to match, then it may not be for you. Comes with a great long hose that tightens right onto the Drywall sander perfectly.
Great system even for touch-up and repair jobs due the dustless nature of it.
JT
I have the Fein vac. Are you sure the hose to the PC sander will fit? As I recall, the Fein vac hoses are an odd diameter, and regular attachments don't fit. I've bought a couple sets of Fein brushes, etc., for this reason.
I just use the Fein hose. It slips right in the back of the sander and tightens up perfectly.Although it may be an odd size, it is tapered slightly and fits securely.It's also plenty long, so it makes a perfect pair.JT
I think you should learn how to tape the right way and spend the $ on something else.
My apologies if you find an honest answer hard to accept.
It is a pet peeve for me to see folks going at a wall like they work in a body shop sanding Bondo.
Eric
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
well, eric.. we can tape with the best of them..
but lot's of applications still require wall sanding.. and when you start paying people to sand walls by hand..
or you start getting complaints about the dust moving thru the house..
anyways.. we bought the PC wall sander.. it's a great tool..
View Image
the caveat is .. your vacumn has to have a paper cartridge filter or you'll burn up your vac..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/21/2005 6:32 pm ET by MikeSmith
That dudes got some arms!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!
So how is that sander working out??
I sure wish the painter that does work for our co. would buy one.
And not to argue Mike, but I can tape most jobs with NO sanding.
Good hand and eye, little more time, skim babyy, skim.
I don't have to tell you how much the clients appreciate that.
Dust is in the top three complaints for people having work done in their homes.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
I've seen a lot of your type of skepticism from folks show have never used it. Having said that, is it a necessity? No, but is it great to use and saves a lot of time, and most importantly, is it cleaner - yes.Would I buy one for $400? Maybe not, unless I did a ton of drywall, and even then maybe not. I purchased mine used from a guy for about $225, and that included about $250 worth of sanding pads.JT
Honestly, excepts for a couple of quick swipes to knock some snots off, or a little bit of sanding on some cornerbeads, I don't sand, and it looks beautiful.
Skim, skim, don't sand, you don't need to.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
eric.. the painter was using mine because he went to buy one and they were out of stock..
now.. let's think about this..
i hire a plaster sub.. they skim-coat.. and move out
good job... say 8,000 sf... perfect ? no... but still a good job..
so the painter comes in.. or.. we're doing the painting..
is there going to be sanding ? there had better be. or the owner is not getting a good paint job...
and hand sanding is labor.. any tool thta reduces labor eventually puts money into our company.. or.... makes us more competitive
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have one. Nice tool. As others have said, it's a bit heavy after 15 minutes, but that's quite tolerable considering the lack of dust.
I have used mine to sand painted paneling before re-painting. Also works well to remove texture overspray and joint compound globs from the floor.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What types of texture have you used it on? The reason I ask is that "removing texture" is common issue in old house work. Usually the texture is painted over, maybe wallpaper underneath. Sometimes the texture includes sand, and sometimes it is some form of plaster or drywall compound. So I was wondering how the sander worked on these situations. I'm guessing that paint clogs the paper pretty fast?
Your thinking right-it's not a texture removal tool. It's main purpose is drywall sanding, though you can push it to knock down old popcorn or acoustic paint. Wallpaper, cured plaster and things of that nature will eat up pads and hours of you time not to mention wear on the machine itself. This thread has veered off topic so as far as the Porter Cable - IT'S A TOOL!!! Just like our compound miter saws and laser levels and power planers. Our grandfathers didn't have these yet they managed to produce some beautiful work. Our children will have tools we never had available and when we see them spend money on one we'll give them a hard time and say "By God, back in my days we didn't need one of those thing-a-ma-jigs! We we're MEN and we did that by hand . You kids are gettin too damn lazy!" Well what would a craftsman from our Grandparents days think if they saw a modern framing crew set up a job site today! It's evolution fellas. New tools come along and some guys like them some guys prefer the methods they have learned. Nobody was insulting anybody. One guy just asked how a tool worked-not if it was the answer to all ends!
Edited 11/23/2005 11:41 am ET by Thumbnailer
I use mine quite often to de-gloss a walll surface before priming and to smooth out the texture of a previous crappy paint job.Yes, that'll tend to clog the paper a bit, but it's worth it to know that the entire wall or ceiling is mostly smooth after doing so.JT
Tried the PC sander twice and will never again. One has to be in tip top shape, your shoulders on ceilings beging to ache in 10 seconds. It's the most exhausting tool in drywall. Very slow to work with and it does not sand the angles or off 45's. Rather can kill myself, I'll sweep the dust and then wet mop it (on wood with a slightly dap mop).
The most important facet in drywall finishing is sanding and this does not beat the pole and the sanding block.
I have a pole similar to this:
View Image
I use it with:
View Image
Mon Coeur S'ouvre A Ta Voix
http://www.vocalperformers.com/JoyceWerry.htm
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I bought the complete set just to finish our basement. Paid around $800 for sander, vac, pads and vac bags. Worth every penny even if I didn't use it again, which I do. As far as the fatigue factor, lookat the work out your getting while working/making $ while some schlepp is paying to do the same thing at a high dollar gym. Hell yeah it hurts and burns but the more you use it the easier it gets. I didn't seal off one door or ventb to the rest of the house and got ZERO dust anywhere. Keep the bag changed (in a pinch you can empty and reuse them). E-Bay may be an option to consider. I've seen them go as little as $450-$500. By the way if I remember correctly overhead sanding with a pole hurt my shoulders too.
When they include a bottle of steroids with it..I'll try it again!
Ok, so how do you guys sand the angles and off-45 with it..how about cathedral ceilings..what you schlep it up on the Perry?
You guys outs take the House Babe on a dusty country road walk!
It would be a tremendous waste of time to skim and skim and skim, trying to achieve a no-sand finish.
Every client I've done work for would completely disagree with that statement!
"Oh last time we had work done the guy sanded for day, the entire house was full of dust. I can't believe how neat and clean you are Eric; and the walls are so smooooooth!!!"
I skim, and I DO achieve a no sand finish, not try to.
Drop the machismo dude, there's too much of it in our industry.
Eric
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Eric,
I gotta go with Ben76 on the no sanding..even if you skim coat with mud you'll have tiny crease marks where the knfe ends. Tell you what, I'm working in Fishkill, NY right now for the next two months and if you got a job in Putnam County I'd luv to see total perfection..the first time.
Hey, you all can go sand your asses of for all I care.
Just cause you can't do it. or don't care to try or learn doesn't mean someone else hasn't done it or is not capable of such.
I see pros do whole houses and hardly touch the job with sanpaper if at all.
I guess I just blowing smoke up ur #### if you don't want to learn something new.
Next time your grinding away at that compound, getting it in your eyes and feeling the grit in your teeth, be sure and think of me and this thread!
Later
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
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Eric, I would like to learn something new. I really like to do drywall, don't do a whole lot though. But I HATE to sand. I've been practicing my finishing technique when I can and have it down pretty good. But I still despise the sanding and dust. Could you explain your skim technique?
Just hopping in to interject a few comments...
1) I have the PC sander and I love it although as was mentioned earlier it isn't the answer to all drywall woes. But... it's a great tool IMHO and used the right way for the right things it's hot stuff.
2) I've seen Eric's work (he bailed my sorry backside out) and without drawing comparisons of who's who... he is toppppppp notch on each of the various skills I observed.
3) On the skimming subject, you might read the infamous "Dino and the Dmix" threads that have been here. I've watched Dino do his Dmix voodoo, and tried it with some pretty remarkable results. It's well worth the time to experiment a bit and learn the basics at least.
PaulB
Thanks Paul,
Yer twenty is in the mail!! lol
I have my low intesity (so far) flame suit on for this one!!!
To All:
As Pauls stated a search is in order.
I'm not sure if I can explain a technique in word, or even with out motion pictures.
This much I can stse right off the bat.
It takes the right tools.
HD does not sell professional taping tools. At least not here. Last time I was there, they don't sell hawks and when I asked they hadn't a clue. My trowels look like cement trowels. not a putty knife on steroids. I purchase them at a drywall supply house.
How many of you have seen (or know what it is) a bent or curved trowel? How many of you would know what to do with it?
How many of you have or have used a 16" flat trowel to spread and feather butts anf joint till they're naerly 3ft wide?
That said, when I have time I may post a bit more on tools and tricks. There are a couple of books around, don't know what's in them.
I don't mean or intend to sound holier than thou here. Working inside a persons home you are a guest. You wouldn't walk in with mud on your feet. I do everything possible to keep my clients homes clean and I do mean clean.
I cannot begin to tell you how much of a black eye dirt, dust and messiness is to this industry. I do all I can and more to rectify that. Sanding drywall has about the greatest potential to create a mess as any other peration.
My clients are extremely grateful to my efforts.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
On a related note... I bought Taunton's book by Ferguson on Drywall. It's good...very good maybe. But, I was disappointed that it failed to address much what I think is at least 50% of the whole issue and that's trowel technique. It's just like a chef, one of the first things they teach you is knife work. When I watched Eric and Dino I paid close attention to the way they held the trowels, and applied the mud, etc. I've tried to emulate what they did and it made an incredible difference. Before I'd have rated my mud work as good DIY level, now it's well... better (much better). (I've never seen the Ferguson video, maybe it gives you some good shots of the techniques.)
PaulB
Edited 11/23/2005 1:09 pm ET by PaulBinCT
Curved trowels are tough to use. I gave up on the one I had. But if that's what you have to learn in order to cut down on the sanding, then I guess I'll have to get it back out.I put a bend in my big knives (12" - 14")..kind of the same thing, just easier for me. But then I didn't like the edge I was getting so I flattened them back out.Do you know anyone with a video camera that could do a short video of some of your skimming techniques? Then upload it so we all could learn?
I will take a photo of my 'bent' trowel.
I bought it that way.
I can't imagine bending a straight trowel with much success. And you are saying knifes.
My 'knifes' are 6" and smaller. Rest of the work is done with trowels. See the previous post by me.
A curved trowel's purpose is to lay or leave a coat of mud over the tape that has been imbedded with mud as a scratch or first coat.
So, on a taper you have a paper tape tha if set correctly should be below or perhaps even with the feild or face of the rest of the board. This bent trowel if liad on a flat surface has a bend radiating out to the ends from it's center. I would say it might be a quarter of an inch, but it can vary depending on angle and pressure applied while in use.
This trowel used correctly will cover tape on a butt or a taper with a THIN coat of compound. It covers the tape. You will likely NOT have s a smooth feathered edge on either side of the joint. You may, and this is an indication of your skill. You may not, and this may indicate a high joint, lack of skill, thick mud or a tired arm. It's time to third coat!!
From there you need to not only apply a smooth coat on top of that coat, but further spread out the "hump" left by the coat of compund from the bent trowel. This is where the long flat trowel comes in. I have a 16" trowel for this, they make shorter and I believe longer as well. Experience will dictate your choice depending on the situation.
By loading up this flat trowel and applying compound to both side of the joint; loading the joint then using judicious pressure and angle clean the compound from the joint. What you are left with should be a joint that is at least 30'' wide if not more. Next coat you can fill and go out even further if you like.
I hope some of this makes sense.
I am not a taper nor a typist.
That's it for now!!
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
when you said "bent" trowel, i thought you meant a "pool" trowel
but you were just talking about a regular drywall trowel.. all of which are bent ..
now.. a "pool " trowel is bent the other way.. and i've never seen on for sale.. i thought everyone made their own..
i made mine from a cement trowel.. straddled two blocks and stepped on the handle.. then i ground the corners off
so you can trowel compound curved surfaces, like a pool
or a room with curved walls.. like this train room which has the corners radiused 7' and the top of the wall meets the ceiling with a 12" radius
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/23/2005 7:34 pm ET by MikeSmith
I was all set to have you satrt yankin' my chain!
Some are bent, concave I guess it would be, some are flat.
I have a pool trowel, it is rounded on the ends, but I think it is flat, but it is QUITE flexible. I use it as a final step on mud shower bases after I have them good and packed, I can push the pool trowel around and I won't loose my pitches.
I'd love to learn plastering, especially curves and mouldings.
If you ever need a specialty trowel, give a holler, I have an EXCELLENT masonry supply nearby that has lots of cool stuff, even stuff that makes you scratch you head and say hmph!
Have a nice Thanksgiving Mike and all.
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
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here's my pool trowel.. side...
View Image
and..... top
i'm anxious to sell our house so i can goof on the next one.. i'd like to do some round rooms and plaster cornice....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/23/2005 9:35 pm ET by MikeSmith
If you use a 16" flat trowel on each side of the joint, how do you deal with the little ridge left in the center of the mud field?Could I bend a cement trowel like Mike did and get the same results as a specific drywall trowel?I just don't like the torque you have to put on the trowel handle in order to keep it at the right angle. For me, it's easier to use a really big knife. But....I'm willing to learn something new if it's better and faster.Question for All:
Does anyone know if automatic tools leave a no-sand or minimum-sand finish? Is this whole discussion only relevant to hand finishing?
tim mooney uses a bazooka.. so he could answer your questionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tim?
If you use a 16" flat trowel on each side of the joint, how do you deal with the little ridge left in the center of the mud field?
There isn't one.
At this point in the game I can pretty much smear mud all over the place and wipe it clean with a nice clean flat trowel.
I hate the big wide putty knife thingys.
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
To those of us who tape and spackle and must sand, I use a Fibratape pole sander hooked up to a Fein vac with 5 micron bags and 1 micron filter. Vac is quiet,house stays clean,customer is happy, contractor gets paid. I was on a job once where the union spackler said he didn't have to sand, the next day we came in and lo he was "polishing" not sanding.
SteveC
That's hilarious. I've been known to "polish" drywall quite a few times myself! I've been thinking about the pole sander hooked to a vacuum via a water bucket but I'd like get my technique down to where it's not much of an issue.
I thought compound needed to be sanded to get the paint to stick to it. Is it porous enough that latex paint sticks without the need for sanding?
Eric, what compounds do you use, and do you thin them for the skim coats?
Frank DuVal
What kind of mud do you like to use for your top coat?
It depends but usually regular old green bucket. What is that USG?
I know there is another brand and I don't like it.
Disclaimer: I am NOT a taper, although I have rocked and taped quite a few whole houses, my current drywall work is limited to remodeling, room guts and the like. I am not fast!!
I like to set with perf. paper and compound.
I like to second coat with Durabond 90. I have been known to mix it with scalding hot tap water. I was told it mixes up more creamy and it does seem to work and does not seem to affect the set time negatively.
I'll do out corners to finish with Durabond, it's nice and hard.
I'll do finish with d bond as well, depending on schedule.
Second coat on butts and tapers always gets the 14" curved trowel. If I have edges, I might fill them fist before third coating by loading a six inch knife and smearing along the ridge 'sideways', then cut it smooth with the edge. It's a whole lot faster to get the mud on the wall this way. You may have seen tapers doing screwholes like that. The run the knife over the whole row of nails draging on compound, then smooth it off with the blade. Doing this seems to make the third coat go on nicer and I stand a better chance of having it be the last, or a least requireing less touch up or skimming.
I do in corners always with a 6" knife, set the paer, then coat one side at a time at least twice. I lke to use durabond for second here as well.
Last coat or third depending on how you look at it is always with the 16' flat trowel, thinned out mud.
The whole skimming thing I reffer to is my preference to fill small ridges and imperfections rather than sand. It's faster (for me) and way cleaner. A good knife kept clean, with well mixed and clean compound, I can swipe down to zero ridge. Keep your tools CLEAN. I use a hawk, not a box (I don't get that) and keep a sponge and a bucket of clean water handy
If I do any sanding it's with a pole or a hand pad with 180 or 22 black paper like they use in auto body. Then it's mostly long sweeping strokes just to clean things up a bit. Never heavy localized creating piles of dust, unless there is a problem with something.
It happens, I'm not perfect.
One key to good taping is to start with a good rock job. And if there are gaps or what have you, take the time to fill them ALL in with setting type compound BEFORE yo start taping. It will be time weel spent. Taping compound does not fill in large voids well, shrinks and is soft even when completely dry.
That's just about it for me so far as I can remember. I'm not much of a writer! Don't think Tauntons gonna come looking for me!
Take care,
Eric
Oh! and the butt taper things; never used 'em, but I'm sur eI will, looks interesting. There have been numerous discussions here about similiar products as well as homemade deals.
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
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I did my entire house...3 floors, using the 7800. Yes, your arms can get tired, if you hold it wrong. Suck the base in towards your chest and move with your body, rather than trying to do it macho-style with just your arms.
There is a tendency to want to oversand. Don't do it. Go slooooowly back and forth, up and down until you see the first rub marks on the drywall paper, then move on.
I found the sander allowed me to be more generous with my second coat, meaning I missed fewer spots.
This sander will not do the fine finish work...you've got to do that by hand, along with the dust. But it sure makes roughing down the second coat a whole lot easier and less dusty.
BruceM