Replies

1. 
   bd342 | Jan 18, 2003 05:33pm | #1

   could you give more detail please. Is the opening so narrow that it fits between the trusses or rafters? What spacing is the roof members at?

   How long is the total span?

   The reason I'm asking these questions is that if it is an exterior wall its almost always bearing . Which would require something more than what you describe.

1. 
   Boxduh | Jan 18, 2003 06:55pm | #2

   Roof trusses bear on exterior bearing walls.  Gable ends of the house, let's call it a simple box colonial, have no roof load bearing on upper walls.  The only load on opening headers is the weight of the gable itself, plus the small amount of roof load coming down through the lookouts from the rake overhang.  I figure if you are doing headers on gable wall openings using, say, the same double 2x10s or 2x12s you are using at the walls where rafters or trusses bear, you are either wasting money or have a cost plus contract.

   That is about the upstairs openings.  At the downstairs main level, at gable ends, if floor joists are parallel to the roof members above (and they are in my case), we will treat the headers for openings the same as above.  The rimjoist for the upstairs floor deck will pick up most all the gable load.  We need a minimal header.

   Here is my present hallucination, attached.  I want nailing for wide interior trim, thus the 2x4 face to the inside.  All my windows and doors are capped with 1x4 plus a 1x backband.

   
1. 
   Piffin | Jan 18, 2003 07:08pm | #3

   Don't forget the wind load on the wall but the flat 2x6 should handle that OK for shorter spans.

   You're right, the framer will scream! I'd make it a 'U' shaped header with two 2x4s or just double the horizontal 2x6 since the vertical load is minimal. You'd have to confirm that one with local codes inspector though..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Turtleneck | Jan 18, 2003 07:23pm | #4

   Gee, I guess it would be cheaper if labor was free. You expect your framer to assemble this mess so you can save material. I would consider this an extra and charge you separately per window for the assembly, time spent with the inspector explaining how superior this method is and finaly I'd charge you again for rebuilding after the inspector rejected it. Ballpark estimate $100 bucks per. ( your logo here) Turtleneck

1. 
   jimatgreatwhite | Jan 18, 2003 07:31pm | #5

   I agree with the turtleneck

2. 
   Boxduh | Jan 18, 2003 07:36pm | #7

   Let's see.  Cut two headers to length, no matter what size.  In contract.  Cut crips to length, no matter what length.  In contract.  I've got 15 windows like this to do, let's say 2 crips per.  I'll be on site most of the time during frameup.  I'll jigsaw the notches while they eat lunch.  No extras.  The detail is from Rob Thallon's "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction," revised edition, detail A, page 70. 

   I am looking to get the nailing I need, and maximize the insulation in the wall cavity.  It was 22 below this morning.

   Will the guy you regularly frame for pay you $100 for marking and cutting notches in two cripples?  Give me his name, I'll get up a crew and start framing for him.

1. 
   jimatgreatwhite | Jan 18, 2003 07:49pm | #8

   It'll cost $2oo per if your on site all the time.<G>

   jim

2. 
   Qtrmeg | Jan 18, 2003 08:11pm | #9

   When you are ready to put this out to bid I would love to see the contract and details. Knowing that you will always be there to help is yet another bonus.

   Good luck getting a framer.

3. 
   Boxduh | Jan 18, 2003 08:17pm | #10

   Everything is buttoned up.  All my subs are signed on, and have their schedules.  The framer is the best in the region.  They know who I am and what I am about, and most have worked for me before.  I like to build things right.  You guys are touchy, today.

4. 
   Piffin | Jan 18, 2003 08:22pm | #11

   I don't know you or how well you work with your framers, but most 'help' I get from others like this is pretty well gauranteed to slow down production and sometimes hurt quality.

   BTW, I see darn few opennings with only two cripples. Three is likely minimum and four or five average.

   a jigsaw huh? What do you budget for blades to do this then?

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   Boxduh | Jan 18, 2003 09:01pm | #12

   Here is what I did for the framers.

   Went through plans and modified so as to use precut exterior wall studs wherever possible.

   Redrew all floor frames and shifted wall and toilet locations wherever possible to eliminate or minimize headers and boxouts, and off-layout doubled joists under interior walls.

   Provided story poles for all exterior walls, showing wall heights, stud, jack, trimmer, and all cripple lengths.

   Redesigned a complex stickframed roof to engineered trusses.  We were set and 100% braced before lunch and will do the same again.

   Built and installed all corner posts, rough stairs, and miscellaneous hips the trusses did not cover.

   Laid out (with helper) and snapped out all lines on slabs and floor decks, including all stud layouts.

   Ordered and scheduled all materials, each release 100% complete with any special ordered items, and did precheck at lumber yard three days before each scheduled delivery.  Made 'em pay UPS next day charges for the stuff they forgot to order on time.

   Brought in the excavator to smooth and firm all laydown areas adjacent structure and where we needed to move around with the Lull highlift.

   Had coffee and rolls promptly at 10:00 am each day of work.

   Bought all beer each Friday.

6. 
   Qtrmeg | Jan 18, 2003 09:09pm | #13

   GD>>> "Bought all beer each Friday."

   All is forgiven. ;-)

7. 
   Piffin | Jan 18, 2003 09:30pm | #14

   gene,

   Please don't take this as personal criticism. I enjoy your posts with the sketches and the ideas we kick around. But remember that you asked so don't be too sensitive about the answers.

   If your working relationship is good for both of you then keep going with it. Your headeer solution lies in that relationship, the relationship with your inspector, and your relationship with your customers.

   But I respond out of my experience and what I see elsewhere...

   The list you post of what you have done for them has something out of whack, compared to most builders I have seen and dealt with. I suspect that you like to think outside the box and push the envelope which is good, but also that you like to micromanage your people. Eventually, that leads to distrust and tensions that can destroy a company or a relationship.

   Half the things on the list are things I would expect a designer to automatically do, not something you have done specialy for them.

   The other half are things that the lead carp on the framing crew should be doing. The way you describe it, you don't trust them to do it right when you do the layout and provide story poles. You are functioning as the lead carp, in the way you describe this job. As designer and lead, you could be setting yourself up for burnout.

   But the coffee, donuts, and beer might save you!

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

8. 
   Qtrmeg | Jan 19, 2003 12:30am | #17

   I don't know Pif, I took it as he was anal retentive, and was designing the perfect house here, piece by piece.

   I respect the time he has spent on this, and I only thought that when he was done he could feed back the results of what he took away, (give up the specs and details). I don't think I added anything to his quest, but I would value the results, offered as he interpreted them.

   I can't spend the research time for one project like he has, and I am jealous. Most often I work from what I know and design the odd things on the fly. I have found, for me, that it is easier to deal with the details when they present themselves, not micro manage from the front end. But I do have talent for estimating for the odd detail.

   I can't imagine I would spec different headers for gables, so the very anal clients amongst us should choose G to build their house. They will get what they want, right? I won't compete with that.

   Edited 1/18/2003 4:33:08 PM ET by Qtrmeg

9. 
   Boxduh | Jan 19, 2003 12:49am | #18

   I'm retired, Pif, but I love to build.  I have myself on a schedule now of one spec house a year, built during the warm months, and in the winter I plan the project.  The frameups and trim-outs are my two favorite parts.  I spent years and years in commercial construction, supervising union mechanics in most all the trades, so coming into residential construction was like learning a foreign language.  On the first house I did, as an owner-builder back in 1997, I let the foundation builder and framer do things on their own, (I was working long hours 40 miles from the job) and suffered from some mistakes that cost my subs money, and me time, due to plans misreads.  It hurt me to see 8" foundation walls knocked out and re-formed and re-poured, and in the case of the framing, the two days of sledge hammering to move over the double LVLs where the triples should have gone, plus the wall rebuilds, made my teeth grind.  I know that all us Breaktime readers never make mistakes, but I hate seeing anything done twice, and anything I can do to make that go away and also save time, I'll do.  I am in a location now where most of the time, the builder is on site every day and wears a tool belt, and in fact does most of what I spoke of earlier.  I'll be too busy working to bother anyone, but when it comes to the layout parts, I want to be there.  This header question affects almost 20 openings, and the material savings will cover the beer and donut budget.

   Edited 1/18/2003 7:35:40 PM ET by Gene Davis

10. 
    xMikeSmith | Jan 19, 2003 01:10am | #19

    gene... for most loads you can use a box header... 1/2 cdx ply nailed and glued to 2x4.. with foam in between or .. drill 'em and blow 'em with cellulose dens-pak... cabo code allows it... i haven't looked at the new IBC yet.... but i bet they're in there too...

    we're pretty anal about insulation and headers are always a sore pointMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

11. 
    AndyEngel | Jan 20, 2003 08:32pm | #28

    Quoth the 2000 IRC, R602.7.2 (p. 112 in my copy), "Nonbearing walls. Load-bearing headers are not required in interior or exterior nonbearing walls. A single flat 2-inch-by-4-inch member may be used as a header in interior or exterior nonbearing walls for openings up to 8 feet in width if the vertical distance to the parallel nailing surface above is not more than 24 inches. For such nonbearing headers, no cripples or blocking are required above the header."

    Assuming a gable wall is non bearing, an argument my building inspector had no trouble with, I don't see a problem.

    Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator

    Edited 1/20/2003 12:33:47 PM ET by ANDYENGEL

12. 
    pnuematicman | Jan 21, 2003 04:07am | #31

    Thanks for mentioning insulated box headers, I've been doing them for sometime and if you just pre-rip some 2" and 1/2" foam board insul. it seems to work and still provide nailing for any trim detail I've seen.

13. 
    Piffin | Jan 19, 2003 01:58am | #20

    You've left me a little confused heere, Gene.

    You mentioned a pair of 2x6 with one horizontal and one rotated up but you drew it with a 2x4 vertical piece.

    You said you've got one of the best framers in your area but describe a tale of woe about errors that needed correction so you now need to supervise the details.

    Don't mean to pick on you, I really do enjoy your posts but like Qtr, sometimes I wonder where you are coming from. Your brief introduction there helps. I can picture it now. The commercial background and the need for specs, details, and documentation all go together. Having an old guy around to shepherd things and send for coffee and beer is a plus, if he is careful to mind his p's and q's.

    I'm getting old myself...

    ;)

    I had pictured you as a 26 YO fresh out of drafting/architecture school, with limited on site experience, a trust fund for backing, multiple jobs running, and a tense disposition making you want to micromanage to avoid any mistakes that might cost you money oput of pocket.

    Since you are building spec houses, it would be my recommendation that you not try too hard to save pennies where it can hurt quality and cause you heartache and complaints from owners in your twilight years. Those years should be enjoyed, not fretted over from mistakes.

    anyhoo, good luck, and share what you learn.

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

14. 
    andybuildz | Jan 19, 2003 07:44am | #22

    Gene

          Ritired yet still buildin, a bit anal retentive..cares a lot..almost beyond the norm.....as Piff phrased it so well, "micromanaged" (I have to remember that one).

     Well, my 2 cents is you aught to get together with Sonny Lykos because between the two of you .....well, I'd love to see you guys work together...although I'm not sure he drinks beer.

         Be a micromanager

                                  Namaste'

                                              Andrew C. Clifford :manager from the soul"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

15. 
    Boxduh | Jan 19, 2003 05:29pm | #23

    Thanks to all for your input.  My whole-house header scheme is shown, attached, and my framing lumber releases are now updated.  I needed to resolve this to make sure the stick count was right.  The drawings I have do not clarify header sizes, and were done for 25 psf snow load conditions, so I rechecked everything for my 60 psf situation.  The non-bearing openings will be framed with one of the schemes shown here, rather than something minimal.  The additional board footage didn't amount to much, and I can get the insulation I need this way.

    Warm regards from,

    Mr. Micro

    
16. 
    Turtleneck | Jan 20, 2003 06:29am | #24

    I like the new sketch alot better, although in my neck of the woods the uprights must sit directly on the cripples. Explained another way, the bottom of the header plate cannot carry a load (however minimal) and would be cut to fit inside of the cripples. 

    Reading through this thread, I have found the banter entertaining as well as informative.

    Gene, you are living my dream. To retire and build a couple of specs a year. To be honest, I would be alot harder on the crews than you, I'd only bring lite beer.

    ( your logo here) Turtleneck

    Edited for code

    Edited 1/19/2003 10:43:49 PM ET by Turtleneck

17. 
    Boxduh | Jan 20, 2003 03:58pm | #25

    Thanks, Turtleneck, for the feedback.  What I believe you mean is that my headers (the 2xs standing upright like beams should) should BEAR on the jackstuds, and the flat 2x6 under, forming the "U" in cross section, should be cut to go BETWEEN the jacks.  Or am I not getting it?  I'll bet John (my framer) would prefer to make up the header parts all the same length.  He's a production guy, and prefers to prefab all the window and door parts right up front.

    As a structural engineer guy, I might prefer to buck the code (if code requires the 2x6 between jacks), and go John's way, spike up the header pieces, all same length, and let the whole thing work as a U-beam.  One of my summer jobs, long ago, was working in a steel fab plant on the Ohio river, and we were making the big box girders for the I-70 bridge over the Missississippi at St. Louis.  Those U-beams were 25 feet tall and each the length of a barge, which is how they were transported downriver.  One day one got dropped by the bridge crane moving it from shop to barge, and you should have seen all 250 of us scramble.  We thought the whole plant was falling down.

    Mr. Micro (formerly Gene Davis)

18. 
    andybuildz | Jan 20, 2003 06:59pm | #26

    Micro

          Love your new handle....Micro..pretty funny.spose you can thank the Piffmiester for that one.

    Be well

             Namaste

                        Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

19. 
    Piffin | Jan 21, 2003 04:10am | #32

    I be LMAO! Love the new name!

    If Mr. Micro fell in love with Miss Management and got married, would they have little micrometers trying to measure up to old Dad?

    Sorry Micro-man, Couldn't resist.

    You're sizing up just fine here!

    ;o).

    Excellence is its own reward!

20. 
    Turtleneck | Jan 20, 2003 07:30pm | #27

    It is much quicker to prefab all of the boxes and thats exactly what my crew did on the first job I ran in 1986. There were 20 or so exterior openings. My previous bosses did them this way, and the other carpenters had always done them this way. One day an old guy and six younger ones showed up with clipboards and hardhats. I asked the old guy if I could be of help and he explained that he was the chief inspector for the department and he was training the young ones. It was unreal, they were everywhere, measuring spans, stairways, they even counted nails!

    Several hours later I was given seven sheets of recommendations, handwritten, filling both sides of the page. Almost all were "future considerations" There were only two deficiencies noted, we had missed 2 toe nails and " loadbearing members shall be on edge..."

    The house was a spec and the company I was building for consisted of two structural engineers and a Professor of civil engineering (that as you can well imagine is another micro story...). Their engineering firm may have signed off on the headers or the head inspector was teaching his students a lesson in enforcement. Either way it held up the job for a day or so and I never ran the bottom plate of a header onto a jackstud again. 

    ( your logo here) Turtleneck

21. 
    Boxduh | Jan 20, 2003 09:20pm | #29

    Think of it this way.  Rafters and joists, even rims, all bear on plates.  The flatways 2x forming the U of the header is another plate.  You know the "squish block" thing, don't you, where the floor joists are sistered with vertical grain 2x blocks about 1/16" longer than rafters are deep?  Placed under concentrated loads like posts.  They don't make us stick those everywhere.  The only downside I can see to the plate atop jacks is the shrinkage issue, which is moot anyway, being that all my openings clear the tops of my window and door units by 1/2".  Anyway, in my little community, the building inspector is likely to NEVER show from the time we whack trees to the time we punch out.  He gives the plans all a good review at permit time, and may, just may, stop by for a chat sometimes, but about the only thing he ever comments on is safety, as in, "you ought to put a railing around that stair opening."

22. 
    Turtleneck | Jan 21, 2003 02:30am | #30

    "Rafters and joists, even rims, all bear on plates."

    My argument exactly. However, greater minds prevail in the hallowed halls of the code office. It all depends on the inspector, some walk around with a magnifying glass. I've had others that just walk in, talk about the weather, sign and leave. I really like your guy/ gal. ( your logo here) Turtleneck

23. 
    truehaven | Jan 21, 2003 07:52am | #33

    In non-bearibg walls we use the same cripple/kingstud combo as for load-bearing walls but instead of 2-2x's nailed together we put a 2x4or6 on flat that bears on the cripples.  There's lots of nailing for trim @ 16" oc and whatever minimal load is on the openning will be picked up by the double top plates if they exist and/or the sheathing/stud box beam that is created by an exterior wall.

    I should define a cripple as the bearing member,  the short studs I call jacks.

    I like beer and stuff too but I also like my own story poles and I quite dislike false-economists.  Beware outsmarting yourself.

    Regards

    ian

    Edited 1/20/2003 11:57:12 PM ET by truehaven

24. 
    Boxduh | Jan 22, 2003 12:31am | #34

    I do what I do with my framer because we have developed mutual admiration and trust.  I would never come on like that with a new sub.  He plans, executes, manages men and equipment.  I handle material logistics and a lot of the layout.  We do two or three long after hours meetings, 40 or 50 days before job time, poring over drawings and details, simplifying wherever possible, and I roll all the info into a revised set of drawings.  Where he lets me help, I help. 

25. 
    Piffin | Jan 22, 2003 03:55am | #35

    Sounds like fun!.

    Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   andybuildz | Jan 18, 2003 07:34pm | #6

   Gene

         I'm betting the building inspector will reject it.

   In my neck of the woods I need dble 2x's even over 24" bathroom doors on non load bearing walls which is why dbls on non load bearing walls are always in the plans by the archy's.

      This actually should open up another thread that would be interesting, concerning non load bearing walls and the waste of lumber on headers.

   Be a wall

            Namaste

                       andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

4. 
   bd342 | Jan 19, 2003 05:04am | #21

   gene , thank you for the added detail.

   You are correct in the bearing issues , however any money you are trying to save in material is being consumed by labor (yours or your framer's) That being said if the fella I was building the house for was insistent about useing 2- 2x6 's for the headers then I would simply stack them flat on top of eachother so that the header blocks can be cut flat.

   There is plenty of nailng for any trim at 16"o.c. whether its inside or outside of the house. I don't normally nail trim any closer than 16"o.c.

   By the way useing a jig saw for notching is not the best way, if you have your heart set on it ,use a cicular saw it will be more accurate and much quicker.

   Almost forgot, if the opening is over 4' then you should go ahead and use a regular header anyway.

   Edited 1/18/2003 9:11:48 PM ET by benny

2. 
   BossHog | Jan 18, 2003 11:08pm | #15

   If you're looking to maximize insulation in the headers, why not use insulated headers, like these:

   http://www.swi-joist.com/p_04.htm

   I'm on the road constantly, where the hell is Easy Street?

1. 
   Boxduh | Jan 18, 2003 11:47pm | #16

   I can't get 'em here, Boss.  I was living and working in Indiana, before moving east, and their use was so prevalent there that I was seeing the Amish use them in pole barns.  I would use them if I could get them.