I’m repairing a lot of the fascia on my house. It rotted from moisture, probably because there is no eave drip edge/gutter apron (I have a hip roof). Most of the fascia is over 50 years old so it actually held up pretty well.
The new fascia will be pvc trim which makes my question moot, but I’m still curious… does the drip edge go in front of or behind the gutter?
If it goes in front of the gutter (to keep water away from the fascia), then the gutters need to be installed before the roof. That was not the order that I did things when I built my additions. So far, that fascia is ok. Also, It must be very difficult to do since the gutter is sloped so the distance to the gutter varies.
If the drip edge goes behind the gutter, then the roof must precede the gutters, but I’ve never seen the gutters removed on a re-roof.
I suspect it’s one of those good/better technique issues, but I like to hear what fine homebuilders do.
Replies
It doesn't matter which goes on first, but the drip edge should be over the back of the gutter so it directs the water into the gutter, rather than behind the gutter.
http://grantlogan.net/
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That would be impossible to accomplish if the gutter are hung with a slope. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
No, not really hard at all.If the drip is installed too tight to the fascia instead of as CU said, then it gets harder, but all you have to do is to make up an apron to go over the back of gutter and under the drip edge.I dunno, maybe it IS hard to do, I seeit wrong all the time...
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I agree, a third piece (the apron) can easily be created but I didn't see that mentioned when I made my post.There are some folks who install all gutters level and that's why I qualified my response as "if you slope". I would hang a gutter level if it wasn't in an area that collects leaves and debris. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
LOL, There is a roof I did for a little old lady back about '93. I cleaned her gutters for her then. She has since died and the house has new owners.
I cleaned the gutters yesterday. I think that is the first time since '93 that has happened. Any water that managed to find its way to the drops was some very ambitious water even with about 1/16" to the foot
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Don....don't let these guys confuse you.
Drip edge typically goes on before the gutters.
Better roofers will remove gutters during a re-roof.
The purpose of the drip edge is to keep water from running behind the fascia.
If you can get it to direct the water into the gutter, great. But that is not its purpose.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"Better roofers will remove gutters during a re-roof."We do?
Why didn't you tell me that 35 years ago?I coulda been throwing them away all this time.
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He'd better tell Grant too, I never seen the shingle guys take off a gutter unless itwas intended to be replaced with new.
Must be New yawk thing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Well, there is good, better and best. Maybe it is just the better ones that take them off while the good and the best ones know how to work around them and leave them on
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Nail catcher.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Along the same lines, do you guys roll the ice and water under the drip edge and over the fascia but behind the gutters or install the drip edge first and run the ice and water over the drip edge. Just wondering.
Chuck
I run the ice shield on the ply, then the drip edge, then either the underlayment to the ridge, or if I am starting it at top of the I&W, I do aanother 9" strip of ice shield over top pf the metaal
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I see you are taking it as a personal dig. Not sure why.
Roofing over existing shingles probably doesn't require the gutters come off....but during a tear off, its a hell of a lot easier to protect them by removing them during the demolition.
If they are still sound, they go right back up after the new shingles are installed. If not, they're replaced.
Truth be told, however, if I'm doing a roof, there's a good chance I'm removing the gutters anyway to get a better look at the fascias so that I can determine their condition as well.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I took it personally and I'm only a below average roofer! I would not remove a gutter knowing that I was going to re install the same gutter. That just ain't goiing to happen. The damage to the nailholes would be enough to steer me away from that idea. If the fascia looks good below the gutter....it's good enough for me. Any signs of water damage and the gutter can come off for fascia replacement.We may have different types of gutter but it's not that hard to NOT damage them when stripping a roof. The biggest chance at damage is from the ladders. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
No, No personal affront. Just haviong fun with your comment. Fact is I have almost never taken gutter off when roofing. Never been a need to and never had any proiblem working around it so I find your comments strange.I am working on one now where wer are doing an addition and find the old vinyl gutters very brittle and they were installed over raw wood with never any paint so we will be remoiving those to paint and probably replace fascia. But I onsider that rare.
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Piffen,
I ,also, have rarely if ever taken off a perfectly good gutter in the process of a re-roof----either tear-off or lay-over.
really not that hard to protect them in place---MUCH more likely to damage them taking them off.
Most likely damage leaving them in place is from a ladder----------I usually prevent that by placing about a 3ft. length of 1x6 or 2x6 on top of the gutter and the ladder leans on that--like a standoff.
all in all--I am quite pleased to find myself in the category of "lesser quality roofers" like you and grant and sphere :>)
Stephen
BTW------- pricing a ludewicci tile roof project today--in between playing with my new truck!!!!!
I am quite pleased to find myself in the category of "lesser quality roofers" like you and grant and sphere
Yeah, apparently everything I know about drip edge is wrong.
In 20+ years in the roofing and guttering business, I've never, ever taken down a gutter that was not going to get replaced. We've dinged up a couple of those paper thin leaf guard gutters with the ladder over the years, but we use standoffs so that doesn't happen any more.
All eaves are not created equal, but the purpose of metal drip edge is to protect the edge of the sheathing and the fascia (or rafter tail ends on open cornice) , regardless of whether there's gutters or not. If gutters are applied, then they become part of the protection system. The gutter needs to be behind the drip edge.
On long runs of gutter, drip edge with a longer flange can be used. The standard size is 1", but I can get 1 1/2" and 2" off the shelf. I can make anything longer that I need. The other option, as mentioned above, is to add a secondary piece under the drip and over the back of the gutter. We often have to do this.
Gutter should never be installed over the drip edge. Water will go behind it and rot the fascia.
All this was not directed at you of course, Stephen. I just got on a roll and couldn't stop.
Ludowici job, huh. Which tiles?http://grantlogan.net/
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. - J. Handey
Wow...youse guys are thin skinned of late.
As you all seem to believe its easier to protect against damage by NOT removing the gutters, I'd be interested to hear exactly what steps you all take to do that.
What specifically do you do to ensure they are not damaged?
As I said...for a tear off, I pretty much always remove the gutters. Put them on the ground in a safe place out of the way. Now I can stand a ladder anywhere along the roofs edge I need to. This also allows me to nail a tarp across the length of the fascia that can be draped down in front of the house to deflect falling debris. If the roof isn't to be water tight by the end of the day, the tarp can then be pulled up over the roof for the night.
Obviously I believe my system is a superior method, or I wouldn't be doing it. But I'm all ears, and always looking to learn.
Aside from blues apparent "I'll take my chances of dinging them", what do you guys actually do to protect them?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
JD,
Assuming you're talking about alum. gutter - how do you re-install and assure the joints are waterproof after removal ?
Protecting them is easy enough- scrap pieces of epdm to cover where ladders set, after installing a wooden block inside the gutter to prevent crushing damage. Also if feasible use pipe stagings so there are no ladders needed to set onto the guttering.
Assuming you're talking about alum. gutter - how do you re-install and assure the joints are waterproof after removal ?
I re-install using the same method as original installation and both visually inspect them as well run water through them.
I like the wooden block idea, which will work great where ladders sit, but what about protection from falling debris?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
JD,
Care must be exercised while stripping the roof, but a little more time spent using care there will be more than offset by not needing to remove and re-install guttering if only the roof is speced.
Of course if fascias need to be redone than removal would be required.
Every situation has it's unique points which need to be observed, but leaving them up can be done quite nicely with no damage if care is used.
Walter
Care must be exercised while stripping the roof, but a little more time spent using care...
That's fine....no disagreement here. I'm just looking for ways to actively protect against damaging the gutters as implied by others.
I have found it easier to ensure against damage by removing them altogether. An extra step, which adds to the cost of the project....but I don't often find resistence from the homeowner when discussing my intentions.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"what about protection from falling debris?"Either you and your crew are wild men or you have an overactive imagination. In all my years on roofs, I have never seen shingle debris fall onto a gutter so as to damage it.Are the gutters there made of tin foil?
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I broke a window once stripping off a roof. The boss was pretty mad. It was a Frank Loyd wright stained glass window or one of his sons. Don't remember which it was. My boss tried to fix it himself. That was a mistake. I didn't even know I broke it till a few days later when I saw it at his house.
I agree.We work like Stephen. We scoop the stuff up and toss it OVER the gutter and usually it lands directly in the dumpster. I also use a stick of wood to keep the ladder off the gutter.When I say "I take my chances", it means that I'm willing to gamble the full replacement cost of the gutter after I take reasonable methods of not damaging it. We haven't had to replace one yet but I haven't done that many tearoffs.I'm wondering how to get the gutter off without damaging it. Aren't the nail holes stripped out? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
We scoop the stuff up and toss it OVER the gutter and usually it lands directly in the dumpster.
Maybe roofs and landscapes are just VERY different where we are.
It is on very rare occassion a roof is so small that all of the debris could be tossed and clear the edge.
It's also rare that a dumpster or even a dump truck could get close enough to the house in these parts to make it possible to catch the falling debris.
Besides....aint many homeowners gonna OK the parking of either on their lawns. So I'd much rather yank the gutters than get back charged for landscape repairs.
It's all pretty much a moot point as far as I'm concerned. As I said, when I take on a roof I aproach it as an entire system. Shingles, gutters, fascias, even soffets and venting.
My estimates often include allowances for all based on the my initial inspection.
I don't see it as taking an extra step, just part of the process.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"Maybe roofs and landscapes are just VERY different where we are."That normally is the case. That's why its probably a bad idea to paint those that leave the gutters intact as something less than "better". You haven't commented on how you deal with the stripped out nail holes in the fascia and sub fascia. Do you fill those before your renail the gutters, or do you hang the gutters in a new lower or higher position to avoid renailing into old nail holes?Nowadays, I'd be focused on hanging new gutters with the new hangers, rather than nailing up those old ones in the old holes. If there wasn't enough money in the budget for new, I'd work to preserve the status quo on the old gutters and would not want the gutters removed because of the nail hole issue. Different strokes for different folks. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Define "damage".
Nicks and dents and tar marks may not be major damage....but damage none-the-less.
And many homeowners may not even notice.....or even care.
I do.
So I protect against it.
That's all.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"Define "damage"."Nah - you do that. You are the one who brought it up. Since you incliude niccks and scrqpes tell us unbelievers how you get a gutter off and back on in pristine shape with none of the damage you mention.I just plain don't damage the gutter so I can't imagine how you manage to mangle it by leaving it on.If you feel you have to take it off, go ahead, but don't expect me to believe you do less damage to it that way thaan I do leaving it in place, and don't waste words trying to get me to believe that makes you a 'better' roofer.
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OK.....maybe not better.
Just more thorough.
; )
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
JD------ most of the roofs we do are tear-offs(90% plus)
very few are walkable. If the roof is walkable-------- protecting the gutter is about a zero issue.
If the roof is walkable---as mentioned-- the debris is primarily caught on a toe board---where one man stationed with a scoop shovel picks it up and WALKS it over to a point where he can throw it CLEAR of the gutter---and preferably into a dump truck.
Look at the pictures following-YOU decide if the houses here are different than the houses where you are. 0374c is a typical street in my neighborhood---- the rest of the pictures are of houses we did where I have already re-sized pictures for breaktime in previous threads
Best wishes
Grant,
I took a picture of the Ludewicci tile house yesterday in some rain/snow/sleet.
If i get the project I will probably take more pictures-maybe run a thread here in the photo section.
If I get a chance some time maybe i can re-size yesterdays pictures and show you.
Basically--it's a low profile flat tile with bullnose--probably pantile is the term. It's a repair project--- I have already located replacement tiles locally. roof, I think , is really to low pitch for this type of roofing material---but that's another issue---along with the falling tree branches,LOL
Stephen
Just to throw another wrench in the works. . .. Around here, SOP (from my observation) is to nail up 1x6 fascia or 2x6 fascia and then cover than with aluminum fascia material with a lip that hides the cut edges of the AL soffit material. On the eaves, drip edge is nailed on then the I&W or felt is fastened on to cover the drip edge. On the rakes, it's felt first then the drip edge. Since the fascia is wrapped in aluminum and that aluminum wrapping tucks up under the downward edge of the drip edge I'm not sure how water would rot the fascia. Regardless of the use of gutters. I have had to fabricate several aluminum sheets that tuck Under the Drip Edge and OVER the gutter edge where the water was running down the face of the Al fascia for aesthetics. But I'm not sure how water would get to the actual fascia lumber this way. Is the way it's done here the common way or is it more of a regional thing?
It's probably regional too, but your way sounds quite workable.
Most of the homes I work on have painted wooden fascias but I proceed just like you described.
Walter
I'm not sure they do it any other way in NW FL.
Perhaps we just look at it differently.
When dealing with roofs, I consider the gutters and leaders part of the drainage system that is a roof.
My estimates typically include allowances for attentioning the gutters as part of the project. Whether it be temporary removal and repairs, or complete replacements.
Gutters can get expensive and it's not something I like to come back at the homeowner with after a project is started.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
"The purpose of the drip edge is to keep water from running behind the fascia.
If you can get it to direct the water into the gutter, great. But that is not its purpose."
No,
The purpose of the drip edge is to direct the water into the gutter, so as not to allow the water behind the gutter, or behind the fascia.
The use of an apron is to bridge the "gap" between the rear top edge of the gutter and the bottom of the drip edge that is created when the gutter is pitched.
The correct installation of ice and water is to run it onto the face of the fascia,and into the gutter if possible,or onto the apron, with the drip edge on top of the ice and water. This helps prevent any water(ice) that might build up from in the gutter from going under the drip edge and back up into the soffit area via the gap at the sheathing/fascia connection.
Geoff
It looks like the purpose of drip edge is now officially something to argue about.I wonder if we can break 200 posts. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
lol
Geoff
OK, I'm in.The purpose of the drip edge is to make the water DRIP away from the fascia instead of bleeding down the face from surface tension.It doesn't matter whether there is gutter there or not. If it is, then the water will automaticly drip into it.
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what if a house has no gutters? Does it still have a drip edge? what if the house has gutters that are in the eave or hidden. does the fascia still have a drip edge? I'm confused!!!!
What if a house has no gutters and open rafter tails? What if it has gutters and open tails ?? The what-ifs just keep on coming! :)
Well in most cases, no gutters, no drip edge, there's no need. Some do put drip edge on gutter-less roofs, but on a steeply pitched roof that would tend to direct the water down the face of the facia, or onto the open tails, not a good practice IMO. In either of those situations I would omit the drip edge and go old style with cedar starters and a standard first course, or a j-channel type drip edge on the sheathing and no cedars, but a modern starter and 1st course.
As for the hidden or built-in type gutters, flashing becomes the critical factor there.
Geoff
JDRHI,
we do one of 3 things
1)- easily walkable roof----we do NOTHING--other than putting a 3 ft. 1x6 on top of the gutter to act as a standoff for one ladder.---roofing gets torn off, scooped up in a scoop shovel and is THROWN over the gutter and into a dumptruck/dump trailer( preferably---------or down onto a tarp. nails, shingle grit, sawdust etc sprinkles down into the gutter---but really nothing hits it. I scoop out the worst of it with a gutter scoop----and then at some point in the afternoon I pizz off everybody on the crew by firing up my leafblower and blowing everything out.
2) non walkable roof---we set roof jacks and toe boards along the eaves---which catch the debris-----which is then picked up and THROWN into a dump truck etc.----again---nothing really hits the gutter-the jacks and toe boards catch it.
3) something with a lot of shrubs etc---some reason we can't get a dumptruck close to the house--we tarp the side of the house---and over the shrubs. Actually next week I am doing a tear-off on a house with brand spanking new siding---what I am gonna do--is button cap nail a 16x20 tarp to a piece of 1x6 or 1x4 strapping. I will 16d the strapping( about 3 nails in 16 feet) to the very bottom of the roof---like the last 4 inches or so--and the tarp will hang over the cutter and completely cover the side of the house. I will run 2 @ 16 ft. across the front of the house and 1 off one of the rakes---3 tarps will handle everything
once the majority of the tear-off is done-- pull the 16d nails from the strapping -and the lower 4 inches of shinglesFALL off,pop the drip edge and it time to rock and roll!
Roll the tarps up around the strapping---and everything is ready for the next time. I haven't had to do this trick in several years--so i will be making up new strap/tarp rigs this weekend--probably take all of 15 minutes---once they are made--it takes 2 guys less than 5 minutes to set up and protect the house in the morning. the house next week has new siding and zero overhangs---so we are being over protective.--usually we don't have to do this because most of the houses here have at least 18" overhangs.
Next year I have tear-off after tear-off after tear-off as far as the eye can see---since we will already have the rigs made up-----we may incorporate the tarp-off into every project--like i said--it only takes less than 5 minutes( it actually takes longer to roll them back up!
Stephen
Edited 11/7/2007 1:51 pm ET by Hazlett