JUst bought an old church and parsonage in TN. It has 2 flat roof sections, both about 12’x38′ Both have a built up tar and felt paper covering in really bad shape. decking looks rotten from underneath and feels spongey from the top so I will do a complete tear off and replace rafters and sheathing. Whats the best material to use???? One roof has several air cond. units on it and both wil be subject to foot traffic. EDPM looks good but I have been told it sometimes develops cracks for no reason? This guy recommended a torch down roofing. I’ve done a lot of shingle roofs but never a flat one like this. Any ideas, suggestions, suppliers, recommendations for sheathing, caps for penetrations? Do I need a cant strip along the two walls??
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
Doctor Hypnotist!?
if EPDM developes cracks, I've never heard of it. Especially in its ex[ected life span. Think of rubber tires and tubes. They do start to crack up after many years ion the sun.
But the guy who told you this sells torch down, so he is prejudiced. The torchdown modified needs to be coated every five years to get the same life span out of it as a plain EPDM with no maintanence.
If you use EPDM in a traveled area, better to get the thicker grade and lay a walk mat.
Cant strips are always good.
sounds like you will be replacing the sheathing.
several AC units in such a small roof space means a high concentration of flashing material. That is where EPDM is stronger than modified is too when weighing pros and cons.
Last, but not least, consider how you feel about a guy waving a torch around on a roof of a completed building. Don't let him hypnotize you into thinking he has enough insurance. Get the paper that proves it. Check insurance no matter who you hire. or they could end up owning the structures and property.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
All good advice, especially about the insurance. Torch-on lasts pretty good, though. Last week I was up on a roof I did about 10 years ago. It is perfect. The membrane is still as flexible as when it went down. The granular coating is tight. There are no signs of weathering at all. Soprema.
All the same, I'd go with EPDM myself these days.
Ron
The stuff with granular coating does not need to be recoated or painted. They didn't have that back when I...About the flexability point -
That is a sign you had the skill to keep the torch moving and melt to just the right temperature. A lot of guys have trouble with that very thing, and overheat it, leading to early brittleness and demise at a younger age.And several AC flashings is enough frustration to make it that much harder to work to the right temperature
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Another reason to use EPDM on the OP's roofs is that they are only 12' wide. No seams. What could be simpler?
Ron
Good point, but he'll still have to remove several AC units and the curb mounts and flshings, then re-sheathe, re-roof, and re-build the curbs then re-flash, then seal them in before the AC is able to be reset.I'm sitting here wondering why so many separate units...Apartments or offices with different payment plans?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't realize you guys had so much time on your hands. I walked away for a couple hours and get 13 replys. Wish I could get that kind of service that quick at Lowes LOL Air conds do not go thru roof. th ecompressors and fans units sit on legs. only penetrations are for a roof drain and a double walled vent pipe for a hot water heater. This is a neat old 1870's church converted to a restaurant in th e70's. It is connected to the parsonage by a corridor(hence the flat roof) The parsonage (Known as the "Widow Brown's) was also used as a dining area. Ther is a flat roof connecting it to th ewalk-in freezer and reefers. None of the roofs were maintained over the years - just patched with black cat and old asphalt shingles, pieces of roofing felt, blue tarps and other odd pieces of debris. The Air Conds were added over the years. I'm looking into upgrading and consolidating them. The electric is a hodpodge of accumulated errors. I was looking for a 150 acre mountaintop to retire to when I stumbled on this. I've always been a sucker for a pretty face
Thanks for the info and any further stuf you can send my way.
Mike
Maybe you can remount the compressors on the ground someplace or combine them to one unit.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm sitting here wondering why so many separate units
That's actually middling common with kirks. First, it's the easiest (cheapest) way to "zone" such a building. Second, since they "grow" additions without much in the way of master plan, the "needs" of the hvac plant vary.
Check this photo out, it's a former church converted to courthouse & court offices (seven units on the roof-three in use; four more at ground level and a window unit).
Actually, membrane or torch down, it's in the details like the pitch pans that the roof is "made" or "broken." Flash the parapets, the penetrations, right, and it's down to the best roof material you can afford/have installed.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hey,
Can anyone out there tell me how to attach pics to these msgs. I haven't had any luck
Thanks,
Scroll down below the message window.
Should be five blue buttons: Post; Preview; Spell Check; Attach Files; & Cancel.
If not, you need to cycle back until you can find the Advanced View button, and set that to "On."
Once you have the option to Attach Files, clicking that button brings up a new screen. You will likely want to jsut hit Browse to find the file you want. Once you have, click on the Download button. Then, you have to wait. How long you wait will depend on your (outbound) connection speed, and hte volume of traffic on Prospero. When the file is complete, it will be listed at the top of the attach screen, with a size.
If you have more files, upload them in the same way. When you are finished, perss the Done button. That's supposed to close the Attach screen, too. You should be able to see the atteched files in your message using the Preview button.
On images, jpeg is best, as it's the most common (lean) image type out there. BMP, pdf, & such can be problematic for some folk. File sizes of <250K are best for people on dial-up. The typically recommended s/w here for image resizing is irfanview, which will google up pretty quickly and is nicely benign on one's computer.
That help any?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
WHen I hit the attach files button nothing happens??? well, I do get a frame aroound the button but not a new screen. I can cut and paste th epics but it takes up about the equiv of 30 lines of type and I don't want to frustrate the dial uppers. any more sugestions? I don't seem to have any problem reducing the size and e-mailing to a reg e-mail address but this forum has me stumped.
Yeah, cut-n-paste is useless, unless the image is "up" on prospero's server somewhere. If you have a web address, you can link to that url, but that takes more coding.
Well, I had some scans on the how-to, blame if I know where they went.
And, I was refering to the 80% condition, that you are using IE 5.x or better.
Ok, just checked, I get a separate pop=up for attching files in Mozilla, too.
You need Luka, maybe . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Just torched down my upstairs porch from my master bedroom and laid sleepers over it to put my mahogany flooring on. Had a fire extinguisher and the garden hose up there...no papers though...lol.
Kinda scary on this ol' house even though its on the new section.
I do have to say though. Torch down has to be the easiest roofing to do if you know what yer doin' and you "pay serious attention"!
And don't forget the kants along the wall. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?I would like to have a word with him.—Chuang-Tzu
have you ever used EPDM? I've done both and would never think to say that torching is easier than glueing the EPDM.gosh, but that yard's gone all to hell since Tipifesst! LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've done about a dozen torch down jobs over the years and yeh...its REALLY easy! But as you said. BE CAREFUL! I always tell whos working for me at the time that just because you don't see any fire doesn't mean there ain't something smoldering somewhere. I'm always over cautous especially when it comes to fire.
When I was done here with the roof. We sprayed the house.shingles and the new roof with the garden hose before we put it way.
And yeh...youz guyz were pretty rough on the grass but fear not...I had an extra bag O' seeds in the shop : ) Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?I would like to have a word with him.—Chuang-Tzu
I'm not saying torch down is not easy. What I'm asking is if you have ever done any EPDM so you have a point of comparison to be able to say that the modified is esier than EPDM?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No...never did EPDM. The torchdown took me all of about 20min to do that upper roof after I had the base sheet down. Its very managable and comes out looking very neat and clean IMO.
I can't help yuo with a comparison thogh, sorry.
I can however give you a comparison on glue vs no glue under wide plank flooring being I did each room differently as an experiment...lol. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?I would like to have a word with him.—Chuang-Tzu
Did them guys do that to your yard? Must have been one ell of a party!
Ron
Sorry for being the dumb guy, but can you elaborate on what a 'kant' is? Piffin mentioned it as well. I did an internet search and couldn't find a reference. In context, it sounds like something to fasten to the wall perhaps? I need to do a small section of EPDM in a month or so.
Thanks in advance.
-Jonathan
<<<Sorry for being the dumb guy, but can you elaborate on what a 'kant' is? Piffin mentioned it as well. I did an internet search and couldn't find a reference. In context, it sounds like something to fasten to the wall perhaps? I need to do a small section of EPDM in a month or so.>>>>No I kan't...lol...kidding
Its a light weight composite material that comes in a triangular shape about three feet long. Comes in small bundles. You fasten them up against the wall and roll your roofing up over it to give you a pitch away from the wall. They're about two inches+ or so thick/heigh. My supplier didn't have any in stock so I ripped the few I needed out of lenghts of 2x. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?I would like to have a word with him.—Chuang-Tzu
I call that a "cant strip".
I have probably made more of them from 2x4 tyhan in using the premade ones.The reason behingd them is that where roofing materials turn sharply from the roof surface to up a wall, especially a parrapet wall, that over time, stresses will be induced there that will break them or crack and cause leaks. The cant forms a more gentle curve that sheds water away from the junction, and lessens the likelihood of stress induced cracks. In the case of this particular job, I don't even thing there is a wall intersection to consider,
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The reason you can't find a reference to "kant" is 'cause Andy can't spell "cant".
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Google images has a few pictures under "cant strip" but most of them are porn
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>>>>>>>>>>>Google images has a few pictures under "cant strip" but most of them are pornI don't believe you - I'll see for myself.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Here's some roof porn:http://www.jm.com/roofing_systems/builtup/products/FesCantTaperedEdgeStripRS5049.pdf
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Repeat after me "EPDM good, torchdown bad - Epdm good, torchdown bad."
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
"EPDM good, torchdown bad - Epdm good, torchdown bad." "EPDM good, torchdown bad - Epdm good, torchdown bad." "EPDM good, torchdown bad - Epdm good, torchdown bad."
got it Do you know if one brand is better than the other? Installation methods?? Suppliers in Maryland or East TN??
Thanks
Mike
All the EPDM in the country is made by only two manufacturers, and then re branded and marketed. Firestone is one and I forget the other, but the quality is equivalent. The thing to look for is thickness. Try to get the .60. because you will have traffic on it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>>>>>>>>>>>Firestone is one and I forget the otherCarlyle, I think.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I'm not sure everyone here would agree with me, but I recommend you use the latex adhesive as opposed to the contact cement type.With the latex adhesive, you can reposition the sheet if necessary. With the other stuff, once it's stuck, that's it.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I agree with the EPDM, fully adhered. I had this installed on ten - 3000 square feet house roofs in Saudi Arabia. I made the contractor test each roof by plugging the scuppers (with EPDM patches) and flooding the roof with 6" minimum of water for 24 hours. This is at least 5.9 inches more of water than is ever expected on the roof at any one time. The low points were up to 18" of water. After a daytime temp of 121 degrees and a night time temp of 82 degrees, only one small leak developed out of 30,000 square feet of roof. The leak was easily identified by a fold on a seam that was not properly adhered.
Since then I have specified over 300,000 square feet of EPDM from Colorado to North Carolina, all with no complaints, so far.
You guys have me convinced. I'll go with EDPM and the water based adhesive. T&G sheathing -- And, of course I can't do without the cant strips I'll post pics if I can figure out this dang camera. ANy advice on installation tips and tricks would be appreciated.
Thanks again
Mike
Don't glue it to the sheathing. Get fiber board and screw it down to the deck and then glue the rubber to that.To screw it down, you use big screws through metal plates...your supplier will know.I was taught sixteen screws/plates per one 4x8 sheet of fiber board.
Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you know if one brand is better than the other?There's quite a few "brands", but only several manufacturers of the membrane. The glues are more proprietary. Mulehide (avaialable at ABC Supply) has a waterborne glue that's not as nasty as the solvent based adhesive. http://www.mulehide.com/epdm/fastroof.html
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
My parents had torch down put on and about four hours after the crew left the fire department was called. A man I know who puts it down does not use a torch but puts it down with hot tar underneath.
It seems the prevailing wisdom here is to use EPDM, however you should consider who will be servicing all these A/C units?
I have seen too many cuts and punctures from the technician who came out to fix the A/C and dropped the drill or left a sharp piece of metal on the roof, leaving a direct source of water entry into your roof. EPDM is a single ply membrane, and it is just as easy to cut/puncture .045 mil as it is .060 mil.
If you won't be able to control who is on this roof to service equipment, you may want to consider a two-ply Mod. Bit. They can be put down in cold adhesive, thereby eliminating the safety concern of the torch.
Either way, use walkpads around all rooftop equipment.
I am looking into relocating the units. the flat roofs are at ground level on one side and there is a possibility of relocation. I'm dealing with the historic zoning commission on this project and while they have been helpful so far I doin't know if they will allow that. walkpads are no problem I am dealing with small areas here roughly 11x 38. and 9 x 38 If I could only post pics LOL