I’ve just stumbled upon a young man who I think has what it takes to do well in remodeling. He’s 20, and eager to learn as much as possible. I want him to stay with me a learn the whole remodeling experience. (Sort of an apprentice). Too often, the most eager leave and enter the field too soon. (That’s me basically. By the grace of God, and lots of stupid mistakes, I found my way, but I’d like to convince him to stick it out.) I suppose my question is: what’s the best way to retain promising employees? David Gerstel wrote that you should convince an apprentice to stay five years, but I think thats too long. If this guy is loyal, I’ll show him ALL sides, including bidding (which is where I got most of my headcracking). If after staying for a while he decides to go on his own, I ‘ve got a sub who does things my way. Do you think I’m being too generous with knowledge? Do you think I should reveal as little as possible. I still like to believe in human nature, but I’ve been burned many times before. I suppose I got excited to see someone as excited about remodeling as I was when I first started. What do any of you think?
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I'll chime in from a younger guy's perspective. I've had a lot of experience past on to me, but the old-timers always left me enough rope to hang myself. Probably a test to make sure I didn't get cocky. I'd encourage the ambition, and pass along info slowly and see what happens. People always made it crystal clear if I took their knowledge and did cut rate side jobs I was actually sticking it to them.
My 2 cents, I'd love to hear other side.
-D
Out of the 40-50 helpers I've hired in the past, there were some with potential and some with the interest to want to learn more, but I don't know any of them who are now on their own running a legit, year-round business. So I have no problem teaching them as much as I know. You'll get more respect out of them and in return they'll get more work from you.
Definitely fill him in.
Instead of just remodeling house, you are remodeling and improving a person that way.
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> what's the best way to retain promising employees?
Treat them well. Pay them well.
If he really wants to learn, and you don't teach, he will find someone who will.
He may move on to learn different methods from others anyway.
But I can say I would have stayed as an employee longer if I had been taught, and had seen a future in working for someone for a while. I still would have eventually gone on my own, but wouldn't have struggled as long, and would have been more prepared.
Interesting comment from an old retired guy I once talked to. He told me in his last 4 years of business, the only people he ever had to bid against were people he had trained. And he was OK with that because they were all excellent builders. Gotta believe that is not the norm however!
Bowz
I just went into business for myself last spring and I can tell you that if my former employer had given me the education that i sought, I would've stayed much longer. I was the same type of employee you describe... young, eager to learn, passion for the trades, etc. My problem was the exact opposite of what you are considering. My employer knew what I was good at it and just kept me doing that, rather than letting me try new things and grow my skills.
Eventually, I just decided that if they were not going to give me the opportunity, then I was going to have to give myself the opportunity. And so out into the world of business I went. Still have a lot to learn but it'll come. However, I can tell you that if I had been challenged the way that I thought I should've been, I would have stayed on there for another 2-3 years (I'd been there about 3 years when I left). So my vote is teach him, challenge him, encourage him. It'll all come back tenfold.
Edited 9/11/2007 9:43 am ET by thebozer
I have no idea how long the new guy has been with you-------------
but my suggestion would be to slow down and take the long approach.
A LOT of new hires talk a good talk and are EAGER the first few weeks---- but often the reality of the situation sets in and their eagerness fades.
i prefer to work solo----but i have had many emplyees over the years---and many of them i made the same kind of offer you seem to want to make to this new guy--------- they start out eager-----and the potential long term money is explained to them-----but the reality is---every day you get dirty,take physical risks and do physically brutal work---the eagerness fades, LOL
so--- i wouldn't make any long range plans with the guy---untill he had worked with you a few months and demonstrated an ability to show up each and every day on time, and do the same boring,repetitive grunt work that you probably need doing. After that you can start easing him into some things.
remember---all this teaching is on YOUR dime--it's gonna cost you. If he stays long enough so that his new skills pay you back in the long run-GREAT!!!! But if he leaves long before you hit that break even point on his training---not so great.
good luck, stephen
Cooper,
from an outsider sticking my nose in, I've seen many such guys as you describe.. Some have what it takes to grind it out over the lang haul, some, (a lot) don't.
My advice is teach away.. but give them time to assimilate what you are teaching them.. too much too soon and they know it all.. Too much too slow and they go elsewhere.
There is no schedule there is only your gut. Treat him like you'd like your kids to be treated and you won't fail..
Anytime I had a new employee, I expected him (or her) to be able to do my job in one year. Surveying, that is. Cross-training is vital when you have a limited number of employees.
They had to learn the basics, then how to run all the instruments with 3rd order accuracy, then, I removed the "mystery" of trig and how to do all the calcs necessary for the job. Won some, lost some. The more they learn, the more they want to learn, if not, get rid of'em. 'Course, if they messed up, they'd have to fix it. But, you don't gain anythig from yelling at somebody that's trying.
Sure was nice to pitch the field book and plans or subdivision plat to the other guys and grab a machete or sledge...
I am still young compared to most here so I'll take that side of it.
I came from a family of carpenters. Starting before 10 yrs old with my grandpa and uncles. They had two sayings that I learned quickly, "keep your eyes open and your mouth shut", and "know your role and shut your hole." I learned alot by watching them, and learning on my time not theirs. While kids my age were playing Nintendo, I was reading old union carpenter books that were hand me downs from them.
I learned alot by just seeing things done, asking only about the tougher things that really had me stumped. I came out of high school knowing how to cut and figure stairs, basic rafters the old school way, and most importantly how to work all day everyday. Once they retired I didn't even want to be a carpenter anymore. I worked all day for next to nothing for people who didn't give a sh!t.
But thats my case I wanted to be there with my family everyday, today most aren't like that. What has worked for me is one key thing, wages. Keep the pay higher than he can pull for any other contractor. You want him to stay around, show him that the best way possible.
Slowly let him onto things, why things happen and for what reasons, why things are done the way they are. But leave him out of the bidding, he will start comparing what he is making and what he is making you.
Open the book of knowledge for him, if he is eager enough a good wage and learning everyday is all he will need. When I started remodeling full time at 18 I worked for the worst possible guy he treated me like dirt, but he knew his stuff. He paid me what I asked and showed me more than I can ever repay him for and for that I am thankful.
Sorry for rambling on, this is a good subject.
Matt
non-compete agreement
"The only thing worse than training people and having them leave is not training them and having them stay.”
You've been burned in the past? How?
The main way we have been burned is by having an employee just not work out. They either were not cut out for the work mentally or physically or simply were looking for something else. Either way, it was no great loss.
I don't know how you can use employees at all if you are not willing to train them. Even a skilled worker needs to be told how you want things done. Every outfit does things a little differently and is particular about their way. The different crews in our company have their own peculiarities and woe to the new guy who doesn't pay attention.
It is out of these peculiarities that the secrets of the trade emerge and if an employee is at all ambitious, he will be trying to soak them up. Be grateful. On this forum we have had plenty of complaints about the lack of young eager tradesmen who will replace us old codgers. Your new guy may turn out to be full of hot air but if he is not and you do not train him, he will find someone who will. I would hire him in a minute.
As far as future competition is concerned, if you are running your business well, you have nothing to fear. You will be getting the cream. If not, he will be passing you by anyway. Maybe you can work for him.
I believe the key is finding someone who wants to be involved with construction, not just someone who has no other options. I learned from an old school carpenter who sat me down one day and told me that if I stayed with him he would do his best to teach me everything he knows. I stayed for 6 more years and shortly after I left he asked if I wanted to be his partner I declined the offer but now have my own business and do work for him as a sub. If someone wants to learn the business and treats it as getting an education, teach them.
We train our employees in all things technical related to construction, but I haven't taught them about running the business. (I was turned on to the E-Myth about six months after I quite my job as a lead carpenter for the first and only company I ever worked for. When I was an employee I was always critical of the two guys who owned the business for being too slack, not having job lists ready, etc. It wasn't until I ran my own company that I learned about all the headaches of running your own business. When you're an employee you think it'll be the same doing your own thing, except that you'll make more money. What you discover is that you work longer and harder if you're the boss. Trying to manage the business deal with clients, estimating, running the crews, taxes, payroll...blah, blah, blah. The painful, hard way about profit and overhead. (When I first started, I thought billing $25/hr. was going to make me rich. Thinking like an employee who was used to $16/hr., I wrongly assumed I'd be raking in the dough----_NOT)---didn't even cover expenses. It's a miracle that I survived all those mistakes. I actually am a bit of a hypocrite, because I left my first remodeling job after 18 mos. I moved up quickly during that time, but knew that I wasn't going to get rich working for someone else. If i'd known all the dangers and headaches, I would have stayed three to five years and learned more. I've had a few guys leave, but to be honest, the really good guys go start their own company, and the bad one's just get shuffled from contractor to contractor. I wish that someone had took me aside when I was twenty and said "Commit to working for me for three to five years, and I'll teach you everything there is to know about contracting." Not just construction, but Quickbooks, Xactimate, Payroll taxes, etc. Almost like college for contractors. Who knows, maybe I'll grow my company with this kid, and let him run a crew, and have him train his own apprentice, and build my company that way. I had to suffer to learn the business side, because my former bosses knew that the best way to retain workers is to keep them ignorant of the dangers of going on your own. Most employees probably fall flat on their face three months in, and decide to come back to the company. IF I didn't have a little side hustle, I probably would have comeback, too. Another breaktimer mentioned that everyone is gung-ho initially. It's the guys that stick it out through the grungy monotonous labor that really have the fire. I love remodeling, it's what I was meant to do (Wish I hadn't wasted four years on the bachelors degree---shoot I wish I'd started carpentry in trade school, instead of going to regular high school!) I suppose I want to think that he's me 17 years ago, with a chance to develop a true skill in something that brings real satisfaction---not just the money, but taking something old, and making it new. It's been so long since I found someone who is eager to learn, and WANTS to be there, instead of the usual, guy who has no other opportunities. I'm sick of construction being the catch-all for slacker ####! In my twenties I was always freaking out because I felt like i didn't know how to do anything. College teaches you how to think and about things, but not how to do something. I wish I could have known at twenty that remodeling would be my thing. I could have been so far ahead of the curve, because I'd be able to focus. Instead I blew ten years drinking/drugging/snow boarding/bartending and woke up at 29 and thought "I better get a life.!} Moved back to Cincinnati from Colorado, lived in my parents basement, and started as low man on the totem pole. I learned most things from books/videos, and some things from my bosses. They seemed hesitant to teach me too much, and they taught me NOTHING about bidding/accounting.Maybe this kid will work out. I've tried trade schools, but the sloth kid they gave me had a REALLY bad B.O. problem. (So bad, that I'd smell him at the job site before I ever saw him.) Where are all the eager young carpenters?I'm off track. (Sorry, I'm exhausted.) Thanks to everyone for all of their insight. Finding this forum was instrumental indeveloping my skills. Being able to converse and learn tips with fellow remodeling brothers, is fantastic. Thank you EVERYONE!
>>I wish that someone had took me aside when I was twenty and said "Commit to working for me for three to five years, and I'll teach you everything there is to know about contracting."
That's what you should say to your eager employee.
couple of other thoughts:
my former bosses knew that the best way to retain workers is to keep them ignorant of the dangers of going on your own. Do you really believe this????
At age 20 I would not have been able to appreciate the business information that would have been handed on to me. When I mentioned not being taught by employers, I meant they did very little in the way of teaching the trade. I learned what I know from a year in tech school, and by reading, and trying stuff on employers jobs, and side jobs.
When my bosses did make mention of a few of the business headaches, I took it as these slackers who no longer wanted to work on the job, doing some high pitched whining. "Running a business? Hey nothing to it. Just work hard and do good work and it will all work out" Ha Ha Ha
They seemed hesitant to teach me too much, and they taught me NOTHING about bidding/accounting.
There is probably a good chance they didn't know quite as much as you think they did about this. Could be they were operating by the seat of their pants and had nothing to teach anyway, even if they'd been willing.
Bowz
Retaining good help...hummm. Lots of thoughts come up. First thing is pay. Money talks, BS walks. You want to keep him, pay him a little more than other contractors are paying their guys. But...
Explain that his pay is based on two things, the amount of work he produces and taking responsibility for his end. So...production talks, BS walks. To me that means that I only teach a new technique when I can see that what I gave him before has sunk in well and that profit making results are happening.
Whenever possible, I participate in the grunt work fully, just to keep the team spirit going and it gives me a better impression of how he's doing. There are a lot of small things that most of us have learned about hard work which only come back to us as thoughts when we're working closely with a new guy.
Reliability is a big key in small businesses too. That's part of taking responsibility for himself. Explain the importance of showing up, on time, every day.
Treat him as part of your extended family. Leave room for him to express himself on any subject that comes up. Being a real friend is one of the best keys to good management, as long as you can be sincere about it.