thinking about building a cabin at the lake about 300 miles away, so this weekend went there to go to their local home show and meet some builders and see who would be interested in building a 1200 sf cabin shell.
so i got to talkng to a guy who does log cabin shells and his price seem pretty good,40-50 sf from foundation to roof shingles,mid grade windows,nothing fancy.
anyway i know that logs are a different animal than stick ,but i don’t know what all the differences really are. these logs are suppose to be dead logs so the expansion and contraction is suppose to be more stable,but i don’t know.
so educate me on what i need to know and ask. thanks larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
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Log cabins are very time consuming to finish. You didn't really give enough detail to judge how much is left, but 30-40 bucks a square foot seems like a suspiciously low price. I remember the first log cabin I finished over 10 years ago, the shell cost about 30, but that didn't include roof, foundation, or windows. Even if this is true, you have a ton of work left after the shell is up. Wiring, plumbing, heating, building partitions, trimwork, cabinetry, staining and sealing etc. all take much longer in a log cabin.
The dead log thing makes sense, but I wonder what he means by "dead logs". Aren't all log cabins built of dead logs? I'd definitely visit his site and see what it's all about. I'd ask him how much they settle.
Find out if they are scribed (the best--hard to believe it could be at that price), chinked, or milled. What kind of foundation? Does it include excavation? Etc. Get a list of what the price includes. My concern would be that there are thousands and thousands of hidden costs that are going to get you and you will wind up over your head.
a shell is what i'm looking for wheter it be stick,log,icf. i'm about 6 hours away so i would like to get dried in and take it from there.
i'm like you with the dead log deal,i don't really want leaves growing on the walls.... but these ae re suppose to be logs that have been dead for 10 years then cut,but i'm a little suspicous of this claim. first how do i know if there old dead or new dead,moisture meter? thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
What sort of joints and how they control infiltration or how do they seal the joints. What sort of slip joints do they use for door and window opennings. Are they pinned together, bolted down or dry liad
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the horiz joints are milled with what i would call a double dado,don't know how they handle at corners.
each row is bolted to the previous row,with a caulk in between. he told me what kind of caulk ,but i don't remember.
i saw where they frame the windows in what looked like 2x8. how are those detailed? do they float a little to allow for movement?thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
the horiz joints are milled with what i would call a double dado
Ok, so these are fully milled "logs," then. Some advantanges and disadvantages with those versus "traditional" log construction (where only the corners are cut to fit [generally]).
One big advantage is that most yards actually build the structure in their yard, then label and dissasemble it for shipping to your site. That makes the building of it pretty fast, as most of the finicky things have already been addressed in the yard instead of out in the scenic boonies.
Also, the milled "logs" do not require chinking, which takes a big giant elbow out of your shell project (you, typically, can't interior chink until your mechanicals in place, and some chinkers will not do exterior only--catch-22).
Downside is that there's not as much "mass" in the milled "logs" walls can be as narrow as 6-8" instead of the "heavy" look 10-12 diameter logs can give. That "single wythe" can be problematic in some climate extremes, especially if the goal is to retain the "look" of logs.
Also, since the milled logs also settle a bit, you wind up really framing another interior "shell" of sorts that the exterior log walls ride "past." Now, mostly that's kitchens and bathrooms, but, it's still a bit extra work, which needs planning for. To my thinking, you really need to double check your interior wall layouts, too, since they "want" to be self-supporting, as they are (generally) divorced from the exterior walls to allow those to move.
Now, there are some finish products out there, often available from the milled "log" vendors, that mathch the "log" finish. This can help "restore" the "look" you just covered up.
My personal bias is for "traditional" logs, and also for shell framing, and SIP roof panels, while we have the crane out there anyway. I prefer a true shell as it under-complicates the interior design with columns, beams, what have you. It also tends to limit the number of timber ends with one end in in conditioned space and the other outdoors. Whether that helps discourage future problems turns into hot debate to no good end. For me, it's personal preference--I'm quite happy to have an "interior" wall of logs to keep the look, a couple fewer design-build hassles having them be interior finish instead of exterior walls.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
as i read through these post's[about 3 times]i think this choice is going to move down the list.the one where it mentioned replacing a log in 10 years about did me[thanks iron].i have to say i'm not sure i see any difference in rot value between a 2x4 and a pine log,it would just take longer.
my first choice is icf,but not sure i can justify that on a place that is heated and cooled maybe 45 days a year. probably end up with stick built as it would be the easiest to deal with. thanks everyone for the input larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
no difference in rot between an 2 x4 and a log, you say? Well, one is inside a protected wall with treated/painted siding, the other exposed 24/7/365. I suppose you could cover teh logs with siding and or paint. LOL
I am assuming you have that answer already since I ave been offline for seeral days, but reading along....
I used a green cedar premilled D-style double T&G fo rmine. if I did it opver again, I wopuld build wioth the KD instead of green. I got about 10% more settlement from shrinkage than I'd calculated.
The window bucks are genrally a 2x2 dadoed into the log ends that the 2x8 is attached to. That dado slot and 2x2 unfastened lets the logs shrink and settle down alongside. You calc your shrinakage and allow an open space above the window buck so no load falls onm the window itself later.
CWF is a product commonly used - stands for Clear Wood Preservative. Don't ask me how the F stands for Preserve....
I used a butyle foam tape for the T&G tongues and then laid a bead of spray foam in the saddle between them for each log. I have very little of the infiltration that most folks typically complain about with older log homes. End butt joints have a spline let into them to keep infiltration out there.
I don't know what to say about the guys who claim it rotting out in ten years. I used cedar, not pine, but mine is ten years now and not the slightest sign if rot or water infiltration.
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The ten year rot thing kind of surprised me, too.
You may recall, I built one of those Kuhn bros. homes out here about 4 years ago....
Our climate here on the coast can be a bit damp and I was concerned about weatherizing the untreated white pine and the exterior wall intersects.
The owner was doing the staining and the exterior caulking and was an exceptionally "detail-oriented" man of Bavarian descent (I'm being kind) who I was pretty fed up with before the project was over with, but he did take my advise on the joints and did a very thorough job.
I remember at the time your saying you used WRC for your logs which I would agree with.
I use mostly WRC when I do log work locally and I've found that it exibits very little surface checking. I usually take out my logs in the winter when the sap is down, but even Spring logs I've used didn't check much.I have a book that is a real wealth of info on log selection for log structures; I don't know if it's still in print, but if it's available anywhere new or used I would recommend it to anyone who is contemplating building a log home: THE CRAFT OF LOG BUILDING By Hermann Phleps ISBN 0-9691019-2-9It's a historical study of log building in Northern and Eastern Europe, a lot of still-existing centuries old structures are shown in line drawings or photos.....good stuff.
a typical 2000 sf house will consume one acre of mature forest. the same in log cabin will consume 17 acres.
LucasJackson, Oh you party-pooooper! Just joking. Don't let the log marketers hear you. It is pretty funny to hear these people try to sell their product. Of course this is the same the world over for marketing anything. Their product is the best and now the greenest! Pretty funny.
Hey, build electric cars! The electiricity comes out of thin air. Ok it comes out of an outlet. Ok, Oil crisis solved. Marketing.
"a typical 2000 sf house will consume one acre of mature forest. the same in log cabin will consume 17 acres."
I think log cabins are a dumb idea too, but I'm a bit suspicious of your numbers. Maybe you have different forests where you are, but here in the PNW 17 acres of mature forest would do a street of houses and some left over for fences.
That is what he said. 17 acs = 17 houses or one log home. 17 would be your street. Now, does it really take 17 ac for one log home? Clearly it is more than that necessary for a stick home, but 17 to 1?
I've built and helped build three log homes and some outbuildings.One was a kit of milled logs, the others were from timber harvested on site.The first I helped with was a 1600 sq. ft. single story hand peeled and scribed log home in Northern Idaho. Log diameters averaged 12" to 13" inches on the small end and were Tamarack (Western Larch). We cut the timber on site from a mature stand and used much less than an acre of trees.I own 60 acres of Timberland here on the South Oregon coast. There are a dozen or so Doug firs on the property that each contain over 15 thousand board feet which is enough to construct a modest stick build home. Those trees are quite large and wouldn't be suitable for log building unless one was building a really big lodge of some sort.
I have several acres that I call my "Pole Patch" that contain enough smaller dimeter but tall and straight timber to construct several log homes.
While I enjoy building with logs and using them for accents, I'm not all that fond of them for a dwelling.
So I have no dog in this hunt.
But I think the figures you cited for timber consumption for log vs. stick construction are totally out of whack with reality.I'd be interested to know the source of your information.
And those 15 thousand bdft trees might be pretty hard to sell. Perhaps on the coast will still take "big" logs. Many mills in N. Idaho won't take anything over 30 inches in diameter, or they will take them and pay you $50 to $100 a thousand. I assume their mills can't cut them and they sell them and put them on trains to bigger mills.
I have no plans to sell them anyway. Anything older than me gets special treatment.Actually, selling timber larger than about 15" diameter has become difficult to market because, as you say, there are fewer mills capable of handling the larger diameters.
And to deliver to those mills, the transportation gets expensive unless there is one close by.However, #2 Doug fir sawlogs currently have a market value of about $650 per thousand bd. ft. (Which is about what they were 20 years ago).I've got a thinning project I'm holding off on until the log prices come back up....which may be awhile.
Notchman, yes log prices are crrap for us "farm load" tree farmers. If memory services me log prices are as low or lower than they were 35 years ago when my father was selling logs. As for DF, we can't get $475 for them here today. Now cedar! $800 for small and $1200 for large. I will bet you can do better still.
I've quite a bit of both Port Orford Cedar and Western Red.
NOT FOR SALE!I love those cedars.
I also know what you mean about large trees getting special treatment. I have a bunch of beautiful 30 inch to 40 inch White pine and people think I should cut them. There isn't any money really in these trees so why not enjoy them. Oh sure, if they get blister rust I will cut them or if I have two togather, I will cut some. That said I am getting things worked up such that I may cut some larger trees as long as what I have left looks likes a woods and not a trashed out semi clear cut. Not a plan for maximizing money but really there is no life changing cash just standing out there for the taking so why not manage for a healthy and good looking forest.
Statements like that are like asking a dealer for thirty thousand dollars worth of car.
The amt of useable timber harvested depends and varies widely with species,climate and terrain. Same with the house itself. Some 'typical' loc homes would be buildable from 7-8 acres worth. Other 'typical' log homes would easily consume thirty acres worth.
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Larry
I am in the middle of a 5000sf log home, 40-50/sf seems about in line as if there are no angles ( just a ranch style cabin) you could have under roof in 2 to 3 weeks for the outer shell. The wiring is an issue make sure your contractor has built a log cabin before. Make sure every thing stays plumb the entire way up, take a level to each corner as logs have a tendancy to roll in or out depending on design. This will save you in the long run.......
See how often you have to treat you logs? Maintenance on my house is required every 5 years.
Jake
I love the look and feel of a log home....but!
Maintenance is a major issue when annual rainfall/humidity is high. Our area is 40"+ and high humidity. The log cabin guys in our area tend to use 'green"pine logs and this means checking and water intrusion early on. A five year cycle is expensive and extremely time consumming. Check out the log cabin sealing and caulking products and their attached $$$.
Most area log homes at about 10 years on need to have logs replaced. Think through that process in regard to the log cross section and methods of dis-assembly and re-assembly.
My neighbor of 20+ years is on his third log surgery sequence and has extensive log damage spread around the perimeter and extensively on the SW exposure. And he has somewhat been diligent with maintenance.
Log homes typically are not heat/cool efficent as the r value for wood is 1 per inch and the infiltration potential is high due to the number of "cracks".
Old time log homes were hewn from white oak logs and were more durable than what is offered today.
Think about a saw mill cut balloon framed clapboard sided shanty with handsplit shakes.....just as rustic, sheds water better and is easier to build, maintain and repair.
IMHO, FWIW..............Iron Helix
this will be a pretty simple rectangle,not really set on a plan yet ,but somewhere in the 28x40 range.
like i said ,went to a home show ,really thinking icf or stick and got to talking to this guy on log,so i really don't have any background [it would be that way with anything else also] .young guy,seemed fairly knowledgable,is in the process right now of building a 7000 sf log and told me to come look.it's at the setting rafter stage. did mention he has either built very small [500 sf] or large homes,nothing in the 1200 sf range???
wiring he said he drills as each log goes up and if i want will pull the wire as he goes,did make the comment about really not license to do that but.... so has knowledge of codes.
he said the first year is when treatment is really important.said to treat it twice the first year with wcf [that is not the right name,i see it around but can't remember ] then didn't mention after that. thanks larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
alwaysoverbudget
Iron Helix about summed up the pros and cons of log homes. It's important to understand that the logs will always be moving a bit.. settling mostly. Understand that there are very few really old log homes while lots of timberframed homes last hundreds of years or more..
One other thing not mentioned is light.. wood get's dark. so even during the day unless you have a lot of windows you will have lights on all over the cabin..
Windows in cabins aren't really a great idea because they are entry points that are difficult to protect against vandels (not to mention there is no insulation on a window )
Just moving in to a log home after researching about five years. You probably have much to learn. Start by googling websites, buy some log home magazines. Easy to romance a log home, but it demands an engagement and the determination to make a marriage work. I can probably answer some questions specifically if you want. Try me at [email protected].
Thumbanger,
Those who read this site regularly understand my opinion of log homes.. I shall contact you via E-mail rather than repeat those view points here..
If you go to 94941.1 & 85891.1 you'll see what I've been doing for the past 6 years..
Edited 3/3/2008 2:29 pm ET by frenchy
Do you like to work on all of your weekends away at the cabin in the woods?
I hope so.
Larry, your post reminded me of a log house a buddy of mine helped build a few years back.
The trees were felled on the property and hand-hewn. They were laid up quite "green" and in just one season they, not unexpectedly, split and twisted a lot. Most of the chinking had to be redone.
Here's a shot showing how much one of the logs twisted (in at that top, out at the bottom):
View Image
Attached below are some general construction photos.
Allen
Edited 3/3/2008 3:00 pm ET by WNYguy
I've built a few factory log structures and would never build one for myself or reccomend it. Standard frame construction is cheaper, more energy efficient, and can be designed with rustic beauty. IMHO.
Although it is the polar opposite type of log home you are considering, I live in and am working on a mid 1800's hewn home.
I'd not do it again.
I have in the late 90's built a modern 'D" style Cypress log home in the NC mtns, from shell to live in C.O.
I'd not do it again.
There are so many easier, faster, more eff., less hassle, more comfortable, less maint. less costly methods..really.
I see a lot of log homes with additions added, and for some reason, they don't often do log additions..coincidence? I think not.
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Last year I worked I my first log home in Vermont . one of the toughest things I encountered was laying out mechanical . All electric on exterior walls had to be pre drilled during assembly ,all exterior wall outlets , switches and lights had to be routed into logs . No plumbing or hvac could be run on outside walls .All interior and exterior trim had to be able to slip to allow for log shrinkage .It was a very interesting project , I loved it but it was loaded with challenges.