Efficient framing for drop-in tub?
Hi all,
beware, this post is long.
I’m curious if anyone can give feedback on how I framed for a drop-in tub today and how to do it more efficiently. I’m not happy with how long it took (8 hrs); my boss and lead haven’t said anything about it but they’re fairly laid back. I work for a remodeler, and we’re non-union but I guess I’m a 2-3 year apprentice for comparison. I’ve done maybe a couple of tub surrounds before.
background first: the bath is on the 2nd floor, the frame went in after drywall. Because the 2nd floor hw floor has had a coat of finish already we’re walking on runners upstairs, so all cutting is being done downstairs on the 1st floor. the tub is a soaker style, a rectangle about 4′ long and 2 1/2′ wide, with a 3′ high partition wall (part of the framing I did) btwn the tub and toilet, and a 6″ wide stone shelf on either end of the tub too; the front of the tub surround also gets stone. The walls in the bath are not plumb and the floor isn’t level.
here’s how I did it:
I set the tub on the floor roughly where it was supposed to be, shoved it up against the long wall where I cut out the drywall so the tub was tight to the framing. Then I shimmed under the tub until the tub was level on all sides.
I made sure I was far enough away from the one end wall for the 6″ stone shelf btwn tub and wall — of course more than 6″ actual dim., but anyway — then on the other end of the tub made a mark on the wall to loft out where the partition wall would stand. I plumbed down with a level on the sides and front, made marks on the floor, and lofted out the perimeter of the tub flange on the floor; I set position of the plate of the partition wall by measuring from the marks on the floor.
Next I occupied a decent part of the morning futzing with the set of the tub in relation to the partition wall to attempt to get the partition square with the front of the tub surround, the front of the tub surround parallel to the front edge of the tub, and maintaining my necessary space for the stone shelf on each end, all the while making close to ten billion pencil marks on the floor and holding my breath so I didn’t inadvertently push the tub out of position as I worked. This work involved a 6′ straight edge, a framing square, a 3′ level, a combination square, a tape measure, and the Japanese master tile setter (for real) working in the nearby shower occasionally offering advice.
Once I had the tub set where I wanted and the surround lofted out, I sketched a plan on a scrap of tileboard and made a cut list. Then I went downstairs and cut out my parts.
I came upstairs with my parts and set them in place, screwing them together if I had to. I dilly-dallied some more with the level to make sure things worked out. Things didn’t exactly work out — a few more trips up and down the stairs and they did (mostly). I pulled the tub from the bathroom and nailed things together.
That’s about it I think, hopefully I didn’t leave anything out. It sure typed faster than it carpentered.
Any thoughts?
thanks, GO
Replies
I can't think of anything I would have done differently. Some things just take longer than you would expect. I built a tub surround yesterday that was let into the floor abut 12 inches. It took 6 hours. Had to cut joistsand make headers and such. Today I merely had to cut the deck top and scribe for the cutout and then put the backerboard on. It took 2 hours! My measuring was on the money too! everyting fit with a 1/2 " overlay....except...I didnt take into acount the rounded corners of the tub. Tomorrow I have to do it right. Hard to scribe for this tub without a template. Its a damn good thing that the only person who saw this boo-boo- was the plumber who I had to beg to do a trial-run on the tub. Easy to fix now. Bitch to fix later.
Bottom line: things usually take longer than expected. When something goes too smoothly I fear that something is wrong. Murphys' Law, stairs, stupidity, paranoia..there is always somthing.
2.8
I read somewhere a few years ago that on average it takes 2.8 times longer to accomplish something than you initially like to think it will. That's not far off by my reckoning.
Sometimes it takes 8.2 times longer.
Doesn't necessarily mean you've done anything wrong or gone about it in a stupid way.....it just takes that long.........despite what you see "on TV".
If anything, maybe it means you're an optimist at heart. That can get you into trouble if you're bidding jobs. It's one of the reasons I work cost-plus / time & materials. Oh, sh*t, shouldn't have said that......it'll start another long heated debate.
When my instuctor was talking about bidding jobs, about 100 years ago in construction school, his formula was ...
"Take your best, serious estimate of the time for the job. Double it. Add the cost of a new tool."
The guy had been a successful contractor, and was real sharp. I suspect his formula was not too far off for most jobs.
The way I learned it was that you should make your best estimate, then double the number and increase the time unit to the next unit. This way a 1 hour job becomes 2 days, a 4 day job becomes 8 weeks, a 3 week job becomes 6 months, and so on. <g>
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
I just add two weeks to each individual job. seems thats always worked for me. I'm not talking a direct replacement for a toilet but rather something like a simple bathroom redo. Seems to always be right on the money. Like in the money Pit movie where they kept being asked..."when will this be done?" Two weeks...two weeks....
Be
Namaste
AndyYou don’t complete your inner work before you do your outer work. Nor do you say, "Well, the hell with the inner work: I’ll go do the outer work because it’s so important and pressing." That’s not conscious either. The conscious thing is the simultaneous doing of both. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Rup
I know empty spaces have their own meaning so thanks man
Be empty sometimes
Namaste
AndyYou don’t complete your inner work before you do your outer work. Nor do you say, "Well, the hell with the inner work: I’ll go do the outer work because it’s so important and pressing." That’s not conscious either. The conscious thing is the simultaneous doing of both. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
That's what happens when you play with the color options and type in white. Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
rez
That is way too cool. I need to do that...type in white....why IS white in there? Man, that should be a thread of its own. Since you thought of it I'll let you do the thread. White.......now thats way cool!!!!
Be white
Namaste
AndyYou don’t complete your inner work before you do your outer work. Nor do you say, "Well, the hell with the inner work: I’ll go do the outer work because it’s so important and pressing." That’s not conscious either. The conscious thing is the simultaneous doing of both. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ok Go ahead and tell me you weren't expecting this. There should be a code users could punch in to change the white to black and send each other secret messages about RonT. Roar! Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
"................................There should be a code users could punch in to change the white to black and send each other secret messages about RonT. Roar!"
There is a code, haven't you received it yet?
View Image
Barry E
ya, but I didn't want Ron to find out about it. Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
Hey, wait a minute. That blew right by me the first time. What!?! Har! Please clue me in. Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
Clue you in about? The code?
You'll notice I didn't decode the whole message. RonT will never know what you said about him. <g>View Image
Barry E
How did you change the white type to black? Is that the process? Or is there a new type of digital camera that can view out thru a monitor and see the reflection of the keyboard off my glasses as I type?
Careful! RonT. is online now and surfing the forum. beware what you say.
Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
Edited 12/14/2002 10:54:57 PM ET by rez
Edited 12/14/2002 10:59:03 PM ET by rez
It's a combination of a GPS locator and infrared positional probes, which are mounted in the black helicopter.View Image
Barry E
I thought as much. Do you think they'll let me in on the white type code without letting RonT know?
Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
rez...its the white secret police...big trouble fer ya..watch out dude..Those folks were at my door and I just dropped a gallon of white-out from my second story window on top of their heads. Don't even go there.theyre pretty scary folks.....worse then the invisible man.....hmmmmmmm, now an invisible woman might be interesting if ya could still feel her,,,,,,well, that's another thread
Be invisible
Namaste
andyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
rez.I agreeOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
It all comes down to "nothing is level or square" and that is the biggest time adder there is.
I would say next time ask the lead guy what's the fastest way to do it.
I must be missing something. It seems the hoops you jumped through were much too many and complex.
1. The tub to be installed should have come with a set of instructions. This should give you the MINIMUM heights for apron framing, dimensions of the tub, and how close the unit needs to be to whatever vertical structure it is attached to.
2.Now that you know these minimum dimensions give the instruction booklet to someone else to hold. Don't look at it again.
3. Build the side walls and buildouts if they aren't built yet. You know the tub dimensions so you know where the wall should be. Square it up always keeping in mind what wall you are going to orient the tub to.
4. Cut out whatever wall sheathing at the height that you determined. I discuss this with the GC, Arch, Des. first to confirm that the tile/ stone layout works. (If the tub spout has been installed, this must also be concidered.) If the apron is supplied by the tub manufacturer go back and reread the instruction book.
5. Do not (only) rely on the walls and apron to support the tub. They will not hold it in place while you are futzing around. Instead, mix up a full bag of Structo-lite (a USG perlited plaster product) and set the tub into it. Wiggle it, knock it, shove it, until it is level and plumb and exactly where and how you want it. Here you must be exact. There is no option for shifting it once the Structo has set up. It acts as a custom form. Some installer use cement but I find that takes too long to set firm and is not as sticky. This method also allows you to install the tub at the "right: height (see #4).
6. Go have lunch, take a 1/2 hr break, organize your tools or move on to step #7. The Structo will take about that time to set up. Sounds like much of your difficulties resulted from your frustration with the tub shifting. We have now eliminated that.
7. When you get back from your "break" take your measurements for the apron and build it "ladder style" downstairs, in the garage, wherever the GC has permitted you to work. Apply the cement board to the top plate of the apron prior to installation. This way you are dealing with larger peices and don't have to worry about scratching the tub later. Carry the apron up to the bathroom and install. If it is a bit short (better) shim it up betweem the bottom plate and the floor. Screw it down. I don't nail unless I use a nail gun which for this installation is too much effort and components for such close quarters. One stud/cripple of the apron can "float" in case the apron is a 1/4"or so short. It makes for an easier installation.
8. Install the cement board to the apron face and you're done. About 4hrs.
Thanks for the feedback Frankie (also thank you cutawooda and everyone), I appreciate it, I think I understand your process Frankie, although it's a slightly different situation than you took from the limited information I first wrote. The tilesetter will set stone on the top of the apron and side shelves, so the tub flange will sit on stone; in other words the tilesetter has to set stone before the tub is set in mortar/cement (we use something similar to what you use, we've also used a foam product in the past). Regardless this probably doesn't change the assembly process too much. I like your idea of shimming the apron wall up. Thanks again,
GO
Go,
It's kinda hard for me to visualize the size and situation, but it doesn't seem too out of line considering you had to cut down stairs. I also have never seen a tub installed after the sheetrock. I wouldn't have placed the tub in the area, I would have measured it and worked from the dimensions. Someone mentioned that the super or someone else should have given you specs. That's true. I can't count how many times I was asked to "go build a tub platform, the plumber is coming tommorrow". Well, ok what kind of tub is it? how high do you want the platform? where is the access panel going to be? how big are the vanities on either side? etc. etc. etc. Blank stare. Friggin' pain in the #### carpenter. Also, I know what you mean about thousands of pencil marks. I have been meaning to add a can of fast drying white paint to my bag of tricks for a long time now, it could really come in handy.
Good Luck
Rick
I do new construction framing only, so I have a print with all the info...that said, It doesn't seem too diferent if you have your specs for the finished product. Iwould have snapped my overalls on the floor
, used a level to see the drop in the run, cut the end crips, run a plate on them and see if it's level,fill in the rest of the crips,and if ther was no pattern included with the tub I would have set a piece of plywood on top of the tub and scribed around the rim, then moved the line in for the lip to sit on. You could check it easy enough by slipping it under the tub to see if it fit. Now that I probably over simplified the process, did I understand what you were trying to do? What I don't understand is why you needed to move the tub in, shim it up,and so on.