Elec: Is this to code? and safe?
MarineEngineer
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Background:
NYC studio apartment. Lots of tiny apartments cut up from a few large apartments, many years ago. Building built in 1903, 12 stories, originally 3 apartments per floor, now total 247 apartments in building.
I took off my circuit panel cover this morning as I was prepping the wall for paint.
the bottom left two breakers are for the stove. Shouldn’t they be mechanically tied together?
The top left two breakers seem to be sharing a neutral. Guess this is OK as long as the loads are balanced.
What about the wire nuts connecting wires in the box? Is that OK?
Much thanks
Marine Engineer
Replies
Undoubtedly Bill or another real life 'lectrician will be along shortly but I believe both are nyetski codeski...
1. Stove breakers tied together mechanically yes they should be.
2. Shared neutral for two hots? Ok for a multiwire, which it appears to be.
3. Wire nuts in box? Not elegant, but wire nuts are fine as they are in a panel, just they would be accetable in any junction box.
I don't know if the a splice is allowed in the feeder, but I wouldn't be thrilled about it. If there has to be a splice there, I would definitely prefer a split-bolt type connector. Do you know what size breaker is protecting that feeder? The wire size looks a bit small. I'm hoping that it's at least #6, but it looks smaller to me.
As for the range, again, the wire looks awfully small - I'm guessing #12, but I suppose that it may be #10. Also, if that's a non-metallic cable, the ground wire is missing or cut. Yes, the breaker for the stove should be 2-pole, with the handles tied together. Also, the white wire should have been marked to distinguish it as 'hot'. I can't make out the rating on that breaker - the normal rating would be 50 amps. If it *is* 50 amps, I would definitely check that wire size.
If it were mine, I would have a professional take a closer look, if just for peace of mind.
Bob
Edited 12/26/2006 5:17 pm ET by bobguindon
>>If there has to be a splice there, I would definitely prefer a split-bolt type connector.
Wouldn't a split bolt create a significantly higher risk of shock to anyone working on the panel? At least the wire nut is insulating. I suppose you could wrap it with electrical tape but it still seems like an ugly detail.
But then I'm not an electrician, and I don't play one on TV.
'Wouldn't a split bolt create a significantly higher risk of shock to anyone working on the panel?'
The split bolt would have to be properly installed and insulated, usually with cloth and/or rubber tape followed by vinyl tape. I just don't like to rely on wire nuts for larger conductors. It seems to me that it makes it harder to get a mechanically secure connection. I suppose that you could use the type of wire nut that has a set-screw, but I still prefer the split bolt for maximum strength.
Bob
Edited 12/26/2006 6:16 pm ET by bobguindon
But then I'm not an electrician, and I don't play one on TV.
But did you stay at a Holiday inn?“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
OK, back home. Some more info:The wires are BX so the ground is the box and the sheathing of the cables. The neutral bar is electrically isolated from the box. There is some writing on the red supply, it's a bit faded but I thought I could see something like "TW 600". The breakers are all 15 amps, except the 20 amp breakers for the stove.I get a separate bill from Con Ed, so there is a meter especially for my panel somewhere in the bowels of the building. My apartment is about 300 sq. ft., and I've got a 20" stove, a dorm style fridge, a ceiling fan, and a window A/C, otherwise just some lights and radio/computer/printer etc. for elect. load.All the wire nuts and the connections at the breakers are tight. The wires are not cloth sheathed, but regular plastic or vinyl or whatever it is that they use.Marine Engineerfair winds and following seas
Tough to say from the pic, but it looks like the service feeds are #10 (presumably copper) - I'd want to find out where they are fused/protected and make sure that fuse/breaker is properly sized for the size wire (30A if the feeders are #10)
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
Yes, the breaker for the stove should be 2-pole, with the handles tied together. Also, the white wire should have been marked to distinguish it as 'hot'
Kind of obvious they are both hot since they are tied to a breaker isn't it? It dosn't hurt to add a ring of red or black tape to the wires in the panel, some inspectors like it. Where the marking is important is on the other end IMO. That is where most victims are found.
Dave
Wow, they went from 36 to 247 apartments? Must have been huge apartments to start and now tiny efficency types.
Is that the paper wrap still left on the some of the wiring I see there?
http://www.quittintime.com/
I see s a couple of subtle, but serious, problems with that panel.
First, lets look at your apartment. How much power does it need? At a minimum, figure 3 watts/ sq ft ...
I bring this up, because the feeder wires appear to be #10, which is usually limited to 30 amps (Each, so you have 60 amps available.) I suppose it's not unreasonable for a single apartment to be served by a "30 amp" service, but since there is that electric stove, 60 amps would be a lot better.
So, I'd expect to see feeder wires of at least #6 size.
Second, this is, by definition, not the main service. Heck, there's not even a main disconnect in this panel. Therefore, the neutral and grounds ought to be separated. The neutral buss ought to be insulated (not in contact with) from the box.
Now, it is quite possible that the wires are run in pipe, and do not require a ground wire. Nevertheless, there ought to be a ground wire coming in with those feed wires, and landed on a separate buss.
The remaining issues relate to that stove circuit. I cannot read the size of that breaker, but I also don't recall ever seeing a stove that was served by less than 40 amps. If that is the case - you would have to look at the stove to be sure - the wires are too small, and now we KNOW the feeders are too small. Also, the breakers appear to be of a different make than the others, and might not fit properly. You are correct about the handle-tie as well (unless the two are internally connected, which I doubt.)
I am also confused by the branch circuits. Specially the stove circuit.As noted it does not look like more than #12, maybe #10.And following the wires it goes to the right most connector on the bottom. With a black and white wire. No observable ground or netural.Now if it was run in conduit then that might be the ground. But there is no legal neutral connection for the stove..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
aside from the deficiencies mentioned by renosteinke,
I don't like those wirenutted splices....
from the look of the shabby workmanship, they are most likely loose already, or will fall apart after you start using the stove regularly and the splices expand and contract
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.Wer ist jetzt der Idiot
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Your stove definatly has to be tied. As for the two hots sharing a neutral they also have to be tied. I've never seen such sloppy work. You'll have to check your loacl code but where I live you are not allowed any splices in the panel
I heard that years ago also about no splices in the panel, but according to the NEC it is OK as long as there is sufficient room for the splice. I have not had a retrofit (service upgrade) failed because a wire was too short and I had a splice in the panel here in central VA.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Hmmm ... no grounds at all .... Perhaps this panel is a replacement for an earlier fusebox. That would account for the splices, and the lack of a ground wire with the feeders. With a stove circuit that small, I can only guess that you have a simple cook-top, and not a full size range. Perhaps only two burners. I've seen those in some places here. There is still the issue of the breakers; and, since breakers are cheap, you might as well have the right ones in the panel. I'd first see what brand the panel is- then get breakers of that make. The stove circuit really needs both halves to turn off together. The NEC does NOT require the other multi-wire circuits to have the breakers linked together. The one instance where that would be required - a 'split' receptacle - is a fairly recent addition to the code. It's not a bad idea, it's just not a requirement.
Where's the grounding?