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elecricity and solid brick walls

| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on November 14, 2002 03:53am

Just picked up a 160 year old home. The construction is solid brick walls, 4 wythes thick. The interior plaster is stucco applied directly to the brick. It’s in bad shape and I’m removing it. I want to put in electrical wall outlets and am thinking of taking out bricks and using some type of lentil to do this. Anyone ever done this? Any suggestions?

Don

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Replies

  1. TLRice | Nov 14, 2002 04:08pm | #1

    Don,

    Since you are removing the deteriorated plaster wash, and you appearantly have no insulation (is this an exterior wall?), I would recommend that you furr out the walls and add the wires (and insulation, if exteior) to a new interior wall. Much easier than messing with 160 year old brick.

    1. riverr1 | Nov 14, 2002 04:36pm | #3

      Tim,

      What you suggested was my first though, but I didn't want to loose the space for this along with the extensions needed. I am going to replaster(my primary trade) which with furring would involve blueboard and a veneer plaster taking even more space.

      Don

      Sorry, didn't answer all your questions. Yes, this is for exterior walls. Odd construction on this. there are no bearing walls. The floor joists are buried into the brick walls. There is a approx. 10" hand hewn square beam running down the center of the house. The floor joints and the beam are notched like lincoln logs. The interior walls are 3x3's and 2x6 running sideways with lath and plaster on them. The beam is sagging some so I will turn one of the walls into a bearing wall to lift the beam. I will carry this through to the basement. Also will allow me to run heat to the upstairs which is now done through convection vents.

      Edited 11/14/2002 8:43:30 AM ET by Don C.

  2. ian | Nov 14, 2002 04:09pm | #2

    What I did when I renovated the kitchen in my 110 old double bick house was to chase the walls and create a cavity for the back of the outlets with a couple of cuts with the wall chaser and 60secs work with a hammer and cold chisel.  The outlets are screwed directly into plastic wall plugs. 

    1. riverr1 | Nov 14, 2002 04:38pm | #4

      Ian,

      Please explain what you mean by chasechasing? I take it you didn't feel the need for any support where you pocketed the brick though? Im curious, since you were in this position, did you do any repointing on the interior brick?

      Don

      1. ian | Nov 23, 2002 12:29am | #6

        Don

        My apology that its taken this long to come back to this thread.  What I meant by chasing is the cutting of a shallow groove in the brick work into which the electrical cable is laid.  The groove is back filled with plaster.  This is permitted by my local codes and is a very common practice round here.  The local hire yards even rent special wall chasing tools to make it easier.   A wall chaser is basicly a special electric saw fitted with a diamond tipped dado blade.   If you've got a lot to do my advice would be buy your own tool and on sell it at the end of the job.  An alternative is to use a dustless diamond saw to cut the edges of the channel and finish the groove by hand - this will take longer but the dustless cutter (Makita makes one) can also be used for other cutting tasks so may end up in your tool box.

        Ian

        1. riverr1 | Dec 01, 2002 10:03pm | #8

          Ian,

          Thanks for the response. Just happened to check in or I may have never seen that you came back to this. I have decided to stud(sideways), board and plaster the walls. Electricity problems were solved by this decision.

          Bob,

          I'm suspect of anyone who mixes their beans and bricks. The though kind of scares me. haha

          Don

          1. RW | Dec 02, 2002 02:15am | #9

            Hilti also offers a spoon looking bit (no I don't remember their name for it) that fits some of their larger combo hammers like the TE55 designed to cut electrical runs through brick and other masonry. Works like a champ. if you don't want to shell out the beans (pun intended) for one, even HD here rents a full line of Hilti wares. You can cut for the boxes with the same thing and what looks like a hole saw for concrete. Two holes and a little chipping to square it.

          2. riverr1 | Dec 02, 2002 05:34am | #10

            As I move on to the rest of the house, I may yet have to deal with the brick walls. I think for the boxes themselves though, Removing brick would be the easiest thing to do.

            Not at all familar with the "spoon" bit, but it makes Ian's chashing easier?????

            Don

          3. RW | Dec 02, 2002 07:24am | #11

            When you say chasing, I read you want to cut channels through the face of the brick to lay conduit in, or in your case, maybe just romex. If that's right, then yes. I looked at the Hilti website and couldn't scrounge up a photo. They also don't list prices there, which should scare any would be shopper. So I dug out the guide. They're called channel chisels. If you've ever seen a brace with spoon bits, they're similar in shape, but the 'spoon' is bent a little in this case. By the looks of it, the TE55 will cut up to 1" channels, the TE 76 will chop up to 1 1/2" channels with the bits that fit the tool. The round cutter is called a core bit, but it's not like a diamond core bit which is long and smooth, it looks more like a hole saw bit with threads on the body. The cruciform bits are also kind of neat. Looks like a ship auger. You can bore about 16" straight through concrete. Gotta love it, but you probably don't need them. If you do go to rent one, have no illusions, these aren't like a regular small combination hammer drill. The 55 is probably about 17 lbs. You'll want to be able to keep it close to you when you work for control.

          4. RalphWicklund | Dec 02, 2002 10:06am | #12

            For quite a bit less work and mess you could use the surface mounted wire chases and boxes that are available in either metal or plastic. They can be left as installed or painted to match the brick color. If you plan to parge the walls they can almost disappear into the parging. If you decide to fur and rock that will work too.

          5. ian | Dec 02, 2002 04:18pm | #13

            Don

            If you want a bit more info on wall chasers have a look at the Metabo web site.  http://www.metabo.com/com/english/produkte/katalog/diamond_drill_system_wall_chasers/  I just love how the Germans mix languages in the page address! 

            No, I'm not trying to sell you one, but having done some long cable and pipe runs through solid brick, precuting the edges to a constant depth sure beats the hell out of chisselling to a chalk line.  A small (ie light) impact hammer to clean out the channel would complete my tool kit for this task if I ever have to do it again.

            Ian

          6. riverr1 | Dec 03, 2002 08:29pm | #14

            Thanks for all the suggestions and tool info. Thought I'd post a pic of what I'm dealing with. General info is on the exterior, the bond course is ever 9th row, and every 7th on the interior. The first floor is 4 or 5 whythes, and 2 or 3 for the second story. I have'nt determinded that one yet. There are no bearing walls in the house. One hand hewn beam runs front to back with the floor joists lincoln logged over that beam. At the stairs, the second story floor joists are finger jointed into the header which is only one board. Current code requires it to be tripled with 2x8's, doubled with 2x10's. Odd construction 160 years ago.

            Don

          7. riverr1 | Dec 03, 2002 08:38pm | #15

            I hope the picture is here????

  3. 4Lorn1 | Nov 15, 2002 03:47am | #5

    I have had luck in such cases using a diamond blade in a 4.5" grinder to cut squares and slots, cut to depth with a chisel and hammer, for 4by4 boxes with mud rings and EMT. As much as possible the runs were run from the switch or receptacle box directly to either the crawl space, preferred, or the attic. The EMT was used to sleeve the romex that was run through the crawl space to complete the runs. Once everything was run and checked the walls were patched and finished with plaster and paint.

    Ceiling boxes, without attic access were run by using two offset 90s running to an octagon box. Such runs, being totally enclosed are run in THHN making switched legs and extra conductors easy to pull.

    In at least one case the builder put foam board on the exterior. Had the foam been moved to the inside the conduit would be run in the same space. If price was not an issue I might still cut the conduit into the wall surface to preserve the continuity of the insulation layer.

  4. User avater
    rjw | Nov 23, 2002 03:15am | #7

    thinking of taking out bricks and using some type of lentil to do this. Anyone ever done this? Any suggestions?

    I think lentil beans go better with concrete block, with old brick I like to use a nice garbanzo bean or even a black bean, in a pinch {G}

    ________________________________________________

    "I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different."  Oscar Wilde

  5. booch | Dec 04, 2002 01:34am | #16

    Wiremold makes a whole line of stuff. Plastic or steel utilitarian or dressy. I'd check them out and see if that makes sense.

    http://www.wiremold.com/

    Or put in some conduit and cover it with a baseboard blocked out to coverup the conduit. I've seen this with Post & frame stress skin construction. It is then sort of a busway around the interior walls for power, telephone & speaker wires. If you do this use BX or conduit so you shield the phone & speaker wires from the AC.

    1. riverr1 | Dec 04, 2002 01:40am | #17

      Booch,

      Thanks for the link. The stuff appears to be a lot more appealing then the stuff I've seen before, but then again, the pictures here are small. Have you seen and used the perimeter stuff? How did it look?

      Don

      1. booch | Dec 04, 2002 05:22am | #18

        You can check out most of it at HD. Unfortunately thay have limited stock in the variety area. Local electrical suppliers have it off the shelf and electrical contractors buy a ton of it for industrial retrofits in office areas.

        Panduit even has a duct that is used in laboratory environments that you can flush mount duplex recepticals as well as run anything under 600 volts. It is PVC and a bit bulky but your decor will determine if it flys.

        The wiremold is easily painted but a bugger to put together. lots of small sharp things. Check it out I've got 10 foot in my house and use the metal box "starter boxes" as booster seats for the dimmers DW puts me up to. Plaster walls are not much more fun than brick to expand a hole in.

        1. riverr1 | Dec 04, 2002 06:24am | #19

          Booch,

          Thanks.I looked at the distributors list on the site and HD wasn't listed. I'll check it out. I've seen some of exposed "decorative" conduit which amounted to an industrial look with a paint job! Not at all appealing.

          As a plasterer, I take exception that plaster thing. There's great money in repairing what people try to do with plaster! haha

          Don

          1. booch | Dec 04, 2002 05:38pm | #21

            As a confirmed DIY'er I bow to your artistic bent on plaster. I've tried it and have hired 3 guys over the 22 year stint in my starter home. At that I suck.

            As for the Panduit brand, here is a link:

            http://onlinecatalog.panduit.com/Panduit/Templates/Panduit/browse.asp?classid=82&original=4,15,24,40,111,82,66,94,608,282

            You might have to enter this link via the lower level link:

            http://onlinecatalog.panduit.com/Panduit/Templates/Panduit/

            I enter as a guest.

            Go to "Surface raceway" and browse from there. T70 is the Laboratory product that has the 600 volt rating. I've used it on machinery for running 120 & 480 with hydraulic lines. Each in a separate channel of the surface raceway. It looks way prettier than conduit and loopy hydraulic lines strung over 200 foot of inline industrial washer.

            Other versions are rated 300 volt (120 volt is the common use) and vary from 2 piece to clamshell designs. 4 basic colors (white, ivory, grey, brown) however it is paintable.

          2. riverr1 | Dec 04, 2002 07:39pm | #22

            Again, thanks for the help.

            Don

        2. User avater
          BillHartmann | Dec 04, 2002 07:41am | #20

          I have only seen the basic small stuff at HD and Lowes.

          But we have a Sutherlands that had some wider molding style plastic surface duct. But it was not Wiremold, but I can't remember the brand now.

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