I just had to replace all my old fuse panels with updated breaker main and sub panels. The old cartridge main fuse overheated and instead of blowing, burnt the back of the box out and was left unusable, prompting the changeover.
Now, I was suspecting the dryer had a short in the motor which caused this failure… at least in its final stages. So after I replace all the panels the new dryer does not work (this is why I began my suspicion of it)…. I disassemble and start trouble shooting until I get a good shock by kneeling on the floor and touching the motor housing at the same time. Seems a shorted motor is the problem.
For the cost of the motor, I figure we should rather replace the 12 year old dryer… so I do.
Bring it home, plug it in and nothing.
Now, either I have really bad luck and picked up a defective one or I am missing something. (I called to have service come in the morning.)
I tested the outlet (220v) and all appropriate prongs get juice. 110 on each side and neutral in the center.
When I plug in the dryer the power pattern changes to having maybe 30v on one side and 190v on the other. Perhaps this is normal when the circuit is completed by plugging in the dryer…. this is what I don’t know. This is also the way the old dryer acted so now I wonder if I threw out a good dryer… although it shouldn’t have been shocking me.
I assume the neutral wire is hooked up properly (I was afraid maybe I lost a wire in the wall with the swap-over) but I can test across from the hot to that neutral lead and get a reading… then again, I can test from the hot to the block wall (ground) and get the saem reading. BTW, how do you test a neutral wire for conectivity?
Any ideas on the dryer?
I won’t be able to sleep right tonight with this unresolved.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
Replies
If you got shocked touching the motor, the unit is not grounded properly. If the motor was shorted, it should trip the breaker.
Get a test light and go from hot to ground, should light to either hot to ground. I mean a like a 60 watt bulb, meters can give faulty readings on weak or open circuits. Or use a wiggy by all means if you have one.
My real suspicion is that the plug has loose wires, or the ground in the panel is not properly bonded.
See you at the fest? I'm going this year.
The dryer is presumably on a 3-pin plug. With that setup, if the motor, timer, or internal light is 120V, it's easy to get a shock if the plug is not making good contact or the socket is improperly wired. (Not that you'd ever do anything to cause the socket to be improperly wired.)
The voltages you measured -- with the neutral pin not staying "centered" between the two hots -- clearly indicates a bad connection somewhere between where you measured and the panel.
If the dryer is not too far from the panel, I'd suggest pulling a new 4-wire cable to the dryer and installing a 4-wire socket (and corresponding 4-wire pigtail on the dryer). Much safer.
Electric dryers are simple and generally quite reliable. It would be unusual for a motor to short out. Most often the rollers supporting the drum are the first thing to go, or else the heating element burns out. And both of these are easily repaired.
Best way to test a neutral wire for connectivity is to use something like a table lamp (60watts or so), connecting one wire to a known "hot" and the other wire to the suspect neutral. (While doing this, make sure no one in the house is touching any electrical appliances or using any plumbing, and take care yourself that you're not in contact with, say, the side of the furnace.) The lamp should glow brightly and you should measure pretty near (within a volt or two) your normal house voltage (120V, more or less) across it.
The same technique (though with even more cautions) can be used to verify a suspect ground.
Simply using a meter, without a "load", can yield a falsely good reading if there's a poor contact.
Mark and Dan,
Thanks so far. The first dryer, when tested, was showing a completed circuit when I touched on lead to the basement floor and the other to the body. Therefore, the body was charged with a considerable amount of current. No?
The line for 220 power is only a 3 line cable. (there is no available ground at the moment) the line tests ok for correct power at the outlet. If I disconnected the door switch on the old dryer then the plug line tested ok where it connected to the dryer supply connection point. I am quite certain that there is nothing loose in the path from the main house panel to the dryer controls.
When I reconneced the door switch, the circuit was then completed and the voltage showed the imbalance that I described previously.
From reading online, I see that there are two common reasons for the body of the dryer being charged... one is the motor windings being shorted and the other is something else.... I forget
This is a Whirlpool if it matters (both the old and new dryer).
I am positive that if I hooked up a lightbulb to the neutral and either side of the outlet, I would have a brightly lit lightbulb.
As for my concern with the neutral line, I was wrried that perhaps it was not connected to the neutral bar but was instead making ground contact through the older style fuse box on the wall, somehow. There is still a throw switch shutoff with old style cartridge fuses right near the dryer.
Simply stated, their is power to and into the dryer. The power is hooked to the appropriate leads, yet nothing.... maybe it really is just a run of bad luck with the dryers and this one has a problem that needs repaired too.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Well, did you reuse the old dryer power cord?
From what I read of your imbalanced voltages, you have a weak or open ground/neutral. That would cause the reading of voltage to the basement floor from the motor, they should be the same voltage. Also, two dryers not working is unusual. Long story, I have a free dryer with a new motor. It kept popping the breaker, guy thinks the motor is shorted, puts in new motor, still pops breaker, buys new dryer, it pops breaker. Gets smarter, changes breaker, all good (sort of) now. Has extra dryer, gives to me. Now everything good here and there.
You have an open ground somewhere.
It would be impossible for a shorted motor, or any other malfunction inside the dryer, to cause the imbalanced neutral you described. It's a bad connection somewhere between where you measured the voltage and the power pole.In light of the fact that you replaced the panel, it would be wise to go around and check a few outlets and make sure they all read the same -- you could have a bad neutral connection coming into the panel. Also, after checking the first time, plug in/turn a toaster or hair dryer (something that draws at least 500 watts) and measure the voltage at the outlet. It should not drop more than maybe 2 volts from what you had with the appliance off.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"I am positive that if I hooked up a lightbulb to the neutral and either side of the outlet, I would have a brightly lit lightbulb."JUST DO IT.Third person telling you that you have a bad neutral, SOMEPLACE from the dryer to the panel.If the dyer was correctly wired for the 3 wire connected (that is a jumper or strap from the ground connection on the dryer terminal strip to the neutral) then the case SHOULD at ground voltage with in a couple of volts. Thus no shock.That neutral connection is floating or high resistance so that when the motor was connected it tried to pull that neutral to about 70 volts. Thus the big unbalnce in voltages.This makes the dryer case hot.That is the problem with 3 wire connections. They are OK as long as they are good, but if you have a neutral problem the case become hot and an electrcution hazard.
Edited 8/7/2006 12:28 am by BillHartmann
A three-wire circuit to the dryer (two hots & neutral), a high impedance ground fault in the old machine, and a poor connection in one of the neutrals would explain why you got shocked (if it'd been a low-impedance fault, you might well have been electrocuted.)
The new machine problems strongly suggest a poor neutral connection, somewhere.
Two questions--did you isolate the neutrals from the grounds in the new subpanels? Are you sure that there are no bootleg grounds at a receptacle (a jumper from the neutral to the ground terminal) anywhere in the house?
Good luck with this. It may be best to call in an electrician if the appliance repalir tech finds the new dryer is O.K. There are a lot of ways to mess up with electrical wiring.
Cliff
Edited 8/7/2006 2:00 am ET by CAP
Thanks guys,
The neutral is my suspicion too as it is the only thing I can't verify. I do have my electrician coming out this week to change over my meter head and mast and check out the stuff I had to replace.
Any (detailed) ideas on how to test the neutral?
Could I just test for connectivity to the 110 outlet nearby (neutral to neutral) and see if the loop is complete to the panel?
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
"Could I just test for connectivity to the 110 outlet nearby (neutral to neutral) and see if the loop is complete to the panel?"Maybe, if the neutral is completely open then a ohm meter will show infinitity.But if the neutral connection is high reistance it might not show or be hard to interpert the reading.If it passes an ohm meter test then you need to test it under load. There could be other ways of testing that are a little easier, but this bypass anyother problems that you might have.The dryer can be the load (motor on) or a 100 watt light from one hot to neutral.Plug an extension cord into a grounded socket that you know is good. If you have one mounted on the panel that is a good place.Then measure the voltage from the extension cord ground to the dryer neutral. It should be no more than a volt or 2. While you are at it measure from the ground to each hot. They should be very close to the same.
> Then measure the voltage from the extension cord ground to the dryer neutral. It should be no more than a volt or 2. While you are at it measure from the ground to each hot. They should be very close to the same.Just to be sure it's clear: The above should be done while there's a "load" (light bulb, etc) attached between hot and the suspect neutral.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Dan,
With a clearer head this morning and the help of you guys here, I did some rechecking.
I found that the neutral line was connected to ground via the old cartridge fuse box anchored to the CMU wall. There was connectivity between the wall and the neutral line. No problem, says I. I remove the box and connect the 220 directly to the conduit where the box used to reside.
Now I've found that the neutral has no connection to anything whatsoever... indicating a broken line... I checked inside the wall for any chance that I dropped it in there.
This is all knob and tube and once the line passes through the wall plate going to the first story... there is no telling where it goes. I can't find anything else non funtioning in the house so I can (hopefully) assume that this is a dedicated line. Therefore, replacing it with another line won't be too hard at all as most of the new run will be easily accessible. The old run went up the 1st floor wall and across the 1st floor ceiling to the sub panel in the hallway to the basement at first floor level... the new one can go across the partially exposed basement ceiling and up the wall where the sub panel is.
Off to the hardware store I go... you guys need anything?
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
knob and tube? Did you move, I don't remember your house being that old.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Built in 1951, same place....
It just looks good for its age, like you. ;-)
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
CalvinYou are close enough.What about going over then and whopping him in the side of the head with a 1/2" ground rod if he doesn't do this right.
What about going over then and whopping him in the side of the head with a 1/2" ground rod if he doesn't do this right.Now that right there is funny.........
I don't know bill.
One less Republican conservative? Tough decision.
Pete is bullheaded, as most can assume from reading his posts. He's also no dummy. I think the three (or more) of you probably have convinced him that REAL ELECTRICIAN is the way to go. You know he's got to have a couple, he's in the bizness. But I'm thinking he's forgotten his roots.
Pete, with that size family I'm sure the laundry piles up. Go get a rope and string some clothesline out back.
Air Dry!
No kidding, knob and tube in the 50's. One more thing I learned today.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Cal,
I just finished some work on a home from the 60's with knob and tube.
Everyone,
To all of you... thanks so much for your advice and help.
I will not run any ground rods. I will leave that up to my electrician. I trust him completely as he is a freaking genius. He also teaches biophysics. His sone just graduated college as an astrophysicist.
Anyhow, in the meantime, my dryer is essentially hooked up the way it has been since we moved in 7 years ago.... the exception being that I ran a new lead for the neutral line from the sub panel to the dryer outlet.
All is working nicely. I'll see my electrician on Wednesday and we'll have it all tidy.
Thanks again everyone.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
If you have not left make sure that you get 4 wire cable and a 4 wire receptacle and also a new 4 wire cordset for the dryer.Really a much better system.If you loose the neutral with that setup the dryer won't work either, but the case will not be not and thus much safer system.
There is no ground in my house and to upgrade all outlets would be a major undertaking.
However, I think I will sink a ground rod outside the basement where the dryer is and ground it that way.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
No, this has nothing to do with whether the other receptacles are grounded or not.And with the replacement of the panel and the meter you really such be installing a ground electrode system.AT the PANEL you bond the neutral bus to the case and ground electrode system.Install a ground rod near the panel and connect to the ground bus in the panel. And also connect to the income water line.If the water line is metalic and at least 10ft long (underground) then it must be used for a ground electrode. And if it is not metallic, but metalic inside then you still need to connect to it to BOND the water system so that it is at ground potential.Pass all of this by the electrican when he replaces the meter. And if this is to be inspected they will be looing at the ground electrode system..
.
.Where is AJ when you need him.G*d D*mm DIY's trying to do electric from instructions over the internet.And still install the new run for the dryer with 4 wires.
There IS a ground in your house -- at the main panel, or at the outside disconnect. If you're running new cable code pretty much requires that it be 4-wire and with a 4-wire plug/socket.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Do not use a new ground rod alone to ground anything. The ground has to originate from the grounding bar or terminal at a panel, and that ground has to go back to the service point where the utility neutral and the house grounding electrode (whether it be a metal underground water pipe, or a ground rod, or rebar in concrete) are connected together.
Pete, from what I've read in your posts, you need to just leave the wiring alone and wait for an electrician. You could be doing other stuff wrong (that you don't mention here and get corrected on), and endangering your life, or your family.
I'm all for DIY. When it comes to electrical, I'm not for learning by making mistakes.
Respectfully,
Cliff