Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 14, 2000 04:01pm | #1

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   The desert southwest is a big place, but if you are in the California part of it, you essentially cannot use electric resistance heating. Radiant electric heat is one of the least efficient ways to heat space that there is.

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   Bonnie_B. | Mar 14, 2000 08:11pm | #2

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   Dear Mike:

   Actually I am in Texas, not California. I need supplemental heat in the bathrooms, however. The gas, forced air systems typically installed in my area do not do a good job of warming the tile bathroom floors on chilly winter mornings. Any suggestions for other supplemental heating systems which I could use? Bonnie B.

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 14, 2000 10:46pm | #3

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   ......Bonnie.. have you ever seen Electric Cove heat?

   this gets installed on the wall typically at 7' .. comes in various wattages... (2' to 12')..can use onboard thm'stats or wall mount line voltage..

   electric supply house or Graingers carry, great supplemental heat , fast response..

   another variant is radiant ceiling panels, typically 2'x 4'... same source... good task heating for problem areas....

   have used both, especially in summer homes trying to extend their season...

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   Guest_ | Mar 14, 2000 11:20pm | #4

   *Bonnie, The electric mats can be appropriate as a supplemental heating source for small areas, such as baths, but can be, as Mike wrote, expensive and inefficient to operate in larger rooms.Typically, they use about 15 watts per sq ft, 1500 watts per 100 sq ft. That works out to about a 15A breaker per 100 sq ft as well. That's for 120v. 240v setups are available with reduced amperage requirements. For small baths, though 120 is sufficient.There are a variety of manufacturers that make a variety of products. Some go in thinset, others need mud beds. Others are designed as staple-up mats on the bottom of the subfloor.Some of these mats can also be used in ceilings and walls, BTW, but for toe warming, the floor is the place to be.Other non-hydronic options? Electric toe kick fan heaters (I hate 'em). Electric "towel warmers" and their larger room-warming cousins.Energy costs are a factor, though. By putting them on a timer w thermostat, they will typically run for a few hours in the am, and a few hours at night. For a standard small bath, 40 sq ft, 600 watts/hr, maybe 3 kW/day?To take the edge off a chilly floor, as a supplemental source of heat, I do think the mats work well.

4. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 15, 2000 12:21am | #5

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   Mike: Interesting idea. . . cove heat and radiant ceiling panels. . but I was hoping to warm my toes because the floors are typically tile and are cold, even if the air temperature is moderate. Bonnie

1. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 15, 2000 12:29am | #6

   *Mongo: The heat source need not be electric; but it must be self-contained. Typically, in the southwest, where I live, some heat is needed in bathrooms during October or November, before the main heating system is turned on for the winter. I am looking for suggestions for any self-contained system. Bonnie B.

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 15, 2000 04:31am | #7

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   Your main post refers to heating the tile. The best way to do that is RFH. If not electric, the only other thing I would propose, since the fuel is available, would be a small gas-fired water heater running to a closed PEX loop under the tile.

   Between the heater, the mixing valves, pumps, manifolds, tubing, and either gypcrete or staple-up...also with a closed system that will only be running a few months a year (read nasty critters in the water?), maerial costs for "supplemental heat" start adding up. One other method would be to not use the separate gas water heater and instead pipe in a heat exchanger off of your current domestic hot water.

   All things considered, the electric mats may very well be your best bet. Easy to install. Safe to use. No annual maintenance.

   There are many other ways to add supplemental heat, but not many ways to economically add RFH.

   I lived in Lubbock for a year...the cold wasn't much of a problem as I remember...it was those darn dust storms!

   Good luck

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 15, 2000 04:37am | #8

   *L.L. Bean has some nifty fleece lined mocs. My wife wears them all the time on our tiled floors. Also uses throw rugs in standing areas, like in front of sinks. Lots cheaper than heating the floor.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 15, 2000 05:39am | #9

   *That brings to mind another point, they have heating mats designed to go under throw rugs. Kind of like mini-electric blankets.I've never seen them used, though.

6. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 15, 2000 10:52pm | #10

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   Barry: Slippers are an inexpensive idea; however, warm bathroom floors are high on my wish list! Bonnie B.

1. 
   David_A._Smith | Mar 17, 2000 06:30am | #11

   *Bonnie - why don't you consider in floor heating the entire house!? Mongos got the tech down right. We heat around 1100 sqft slab topped with tile with 1/2" Pex and another four hundred fir 3/4" in the floor joists of the 2nd floor. I have been using a 30 gallon electric hot water heater with 9 kw. This is actually a back up to our RSF wood space heater (65000 btu) but we do run it a couple of hours a day just to warm the floor. Our place is a combination of new and renovated with r20+ insulation and fairly well sealed. During time away we've left the hot water heat the place for several days at 30 degrees below centigrade and it will keep up, although at 72 cents cdn an hour you don't want it as your only source of heat. A small electric pump runs constantly through the heating season...you can't even hear it a foot away. We are running 8 circuits/loops with one in the attached 360 sqft garage/shop splitting into three, incuding one in the perimeter footing. The perimeter of the entire house has 2" styrofoam from the edge of the house two feet out. You must remember we experience winter from October to May and severe temperatures ususally Dec thru Feb usually bobbing up and down from 15 to forty below centigrade. We run a 1" water pipe (designed by the stove manufacturer)through the stove for supplementary heating of the water before the tank...it might be enough to keep the water from freezing when we're running the stove with the water heater off. This also keeps the garage/shop at jacket temperatures as it is cut off from the heat "flow" of the house air. We are now debating "boiler" and realize this is a much more efficient (but the hot water heater with change to 45kw elements was less than 250.00 bucks cdn and I've had to clean them only once in four years). An electic boiler 20 kw, the size of a bread box, with individual breakers for the elements for more control during seasonal adjustments sells new for around 1600.00/2000.00 and plugs in "simply" if you plan for a big enough panel (200amp plus) and its done. Keep in mind your only heating approximately 1 gallon/100 square feet of 1/2" hose and in my climate and heat loss calculation for the building, that figures at roughly per square foot of house. This cost around 50 cents cdn/ft Of course there are fancy do dads to sense outside temperature changes for inside climate control for another few hundred dollars. Propane, deisel and gas mean a greater initial dollar, 2x plus more $ and require chimneys, more space, fuel storage, greater installation costs, but some say pay for themselves over time. Our "local" (four hours south by car but right here by phone and fax and Greyhound express) wholesale supplier provided us with all the advise we needed and as self homebuilders give us what he claimed was contractor price. Because everyone is looking to save fuel costs finding a good used electric boiler is easier...we're waiting a year for a boiler since I foolishly turned down the last 500.00 offer. No forced air for us ever again...yes there are some costs. (I can't imagine not finding good and better prices in Texas than in Northern Saskatchewan twenty miles short of the end of the pavement!) Guess that's why we don't drive a new car and stuff like that. A little story...we were in our summer home last weekend (same climate as here). It has forced air deisel and my wife jumped up in bed late that night and told me to listen. She could'nt understand why that big truck hadn't gone by...well the big truck was idling away in the basement. We hadn't been there in months and forgot the sound. Forced air warms only the air and when that air cools on it comes again. What your toes are tellin' is right. No dust, no noise, heat in every corner, kids lying on the floor, walking around on that wonderful ceramic tile in your bare feet are bonuses you'll rave about and no one will beleive you. You won't care cause you know better. You'll never heat for nothing. Look seriously at pricing of forced air, radiators collecting dust and sticking out of the walls, and "in floor heat". I think its a good idea that technology has finally caught. Its a luxury worth paying for and likely won't increase the price of your home by as much as ten percent over conventional heating. Look on the Web for Radiant sights. Sorry I have lost all my addresses when my computer crashed around xmas but I did pick up this one which is likely a good beginning whether you choose to do the work yourself or have it done...good luck! daveP.s. seems to me a canadian $ is about 66 cents UShttp://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/

7. 
   Guest_ | Mar 17, 2000 06:53am | #12

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   Bonnie, I was looking into SunTouch for my own bath. They have a web site http://www.bask.net. I called and was given an address of a local dealer. It was a tile showroom, and the girl at the desk said they tried one install and the owner of the tile store had so many problems that he stopped carrying it. Never got an answer as to what the problems were. If the product works, it's exactly what I'm looking for. Thin mesh grid w/ electric theromastat. Tax refund is in, so the bath remodel is back on. I'll let ya know if I get anymore info. Has anyone here ever worked with the SunTouch product? Seems simple enough. Help us out guys. Jeff

8. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 17, 2000 06:23pm | #13

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   Jeff: Does anyone have any real experience with Suntouch or similar products? It sounds like a great idea. Bonnie B.

1. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 17, 2000 06:27pm | #14

   *David: Yes, I considered radiant floor heating for the entire house. But it is difficult to justify the $20,000 price tag because the heating season is so short here. During the winter, the furnace rarely runs during the day; it only runs at night maybe from December through February. The only heat I actually need is in the morning in the bathrooms. Bonnie B.

1. 
   david_sorg | Mar 17, 2000 08:16pm | #15

   *Bonnie,There was a great article in FH a couple of years ago about radiant cables in slabs; economical and easy for supplemental or full time heat. It would be worth searching for that story and its sources.

1. 
   Bonnie_B. | Mar 18, 2000 12:14am | #16

   *David S. I have a stack of old "Fine Homebuilding" magazines. I guess I should dig them out and look for that article! Do you think the article was about electric radiant floor heat or only hydronic? Bonnie

1. 
   david_sorg | Mar 18, 2000 03:25am | #17

   *It was electric only, very inexpensive installation, easy DIY. According to the author, it was also cheap as whole house heating somewhere in the Northeast, I believe.

9. 
   Guest_ | Mar 18, 2000 05:37am | #18

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   bonnie, try http://www.nuheat.com I have installed several of these units in baths and dressing rooms. Pat

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 18, 2000 02:40pm | #19

   *I have a bathremodel coming up that has sun touch speced. The local dealer has sold about 10 over the last year & claims not to have had any problems. It looks like i'll be finding out. Also, if you read the installation literature, it looks like there's a few places where it would be esy for the unattnative or the impatient to screw it up. My thought is layout may also be an issue.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 18, 2000 04:03pm | #20

   *Bonnie, try http://www.nuheat.com I have used them in the past in baths and dressing rooms.Easy to work with .Pat

10. 
    BonnieB | Mar 24, 2000 12:32am | #21

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    Pat: Thanks for the tip. I have information from one manufacturer, but was not aware of Nuheat. Bonnie

11. 
    Guest_ | Mar 30, 2000 07:03pm | #22

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    BonnieB,

    Is your floor framed or slab? Is it too late for a boiler and some radiant baseboards and/or (if framed) a coulpe of loops under the subfloor of you bathrooms. The electric bills are going to be killer for the heat provided. The boiler could also serve as an on-demand domestic hot water heater.

    David Taylor

12. 
    Bonnie_B. | Mar 30, 2000 07:03pm | #23

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    i am building a new house and would like some supplemental heat for the family room and bathroom floors, because these floors will be tile. I am considering electric radiant floor heating. (Main heating system will be gas, forced air.)I live in the desert southwest with a short heating season, so a full-blown hydronic radiant floor heating system is a very expensive luxury, if available at all. Does anyone have experience with this type of heating? Thanks. Bonnie B.