Electrical color coding in conduit
FlyingContractor
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hey Guys,
I need to run 8 conductors in a 1″ EMT conduit, 4 12AWG and 4 10AWG leads. Wire prices being the way they are, it would be much more cost efficient to buy one 500ft roll of each wire gauge and color code each end as opposed to running all different colors. I am just wondering if this is kosher or ok as long as properly marked.
Thanks!
Replies
Someone more up on the NEC than me will chime in no doubt, but I seem to recall that using tape to label conductors was only legit in the case of a neutral being used as hot. Isn't that a lot of conductors for 1"?
Interested to see if I'm all wet ;)
PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
I am sure not looking forward to pulling all those conductors through, but I looked up the fill tables, and 1" EMT allows 16 10AWG THHN conductors, assuming I am reading it right!
if you're wiring a house, Black and Red has been pretty much the rule for ungrounded conductors. if you want to color code them it is entirely up to you, the NEC doesnt specify colors for them !
you can even number them
but you DO have to derate all those hots
I'll just assume there are no neutrals so 8 hots will have to be derated to 70% of their ampacity ..... #12 =14 amps, and the #10 = 21amps
if you have more than one neutral the derating becomes 50%
changing the pipe size won't fix the problem either !
.
.
. . . . . . . .
in fact if you have just 4 current carrying conductors in one conduit you have to derate to 80%.
.
.. . . . . . . .
You forget that you derate from the 90 degree column.
~Peter
I have always derated based on wire count. and the insulation just not that many times where I run single phase circuits either but most locales across the Lake say no more than nine wires in a pipe............. so we can have only two 3Ø networks and one ground in any pipe, unless it is less than 24" long the steel mills are a different animal where we pull whatever the EEs tell us to pull.
.
.. . . . . . . .
Hey DOG, I worked with a Ele. today haveing FUN. We pulled 4 runs of 3 ea. 3/0 CU 160' each. Used a ditchwitch on the rope.
Dammn spools weren't all the same size ( 12 in all) and getting them on the axel and jack stands was half the battle.
I'm bushed, man that is HARD Work!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
oh hell yeah, it's even more fun when one or two reels are brokenpictures ???.
.
.. . . . . . . .
I think the HO took some and hasn't sent to me yet. I had the slime on my gloves, and just my phone camera, and wasn't in a very good mood.
I'll see what I can get today...1200 amps into two "tubs" and there will be 6 200 amp panels, genset transfer sw, and godknowswhat else. Setting the transformer today I think ( KU, is).Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
was there a lot a yellin goin on ???? :)
it ain't a proper wire pull without somebody gettin PO'd.
.
.. . . . . . . .
You bet, I was in the basement pulling off the reels, HO was supposed to be helping roll the reels, the REAL Ele. was feeding the cable into the conduit( with more snot on him than I) , and yelling "Whoa, and GO" to the middle guy out at the transformer snatchblock.
That guy yelling to the guy pulling the rope with a ditchwitch out father and farther away.
I learned:
(A) Walkie Talkies would have been a good idea(2) Whoa and GO sound a LOT alike yelling thru condiut(III) let the real ele do his job with HIS men instead of trying to be a cheap HO
Pics soon..I have to call myself from my cell to get them outta it, and the HO has to email me what he took.
KU OKed the transformer set up, but won't set until they can energize at the same visit, Ele needs to get the switch gear in the tubs tomorrow.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
pulling is a lot of bull work and a little finesse, like you say, leave it to the folks who do it for a livingbut for the next time use STOP and OK instead of whoa and gohand signals we use ... extend the arm straight out to the side and wave up and down for GO and make an X over your head with both arms to STOP.. or variations of theseradios are ok but they work the best when two helpers use them since you usually have lube all over you also a little discussion before pulling is very helpful too, but sometimes the minute the wire starts to move all planning goes out the window cuz no one remembers what was
just talked abouta lot of wire pulls here are verrrrry long in 4,5 and 6' pipe and special crews of around 20-30 electricians do nothing but pull wire all day long, so handling 2500' reels of wire up to 600, 750, 1000 and 2000 MCM and armored high voltage cable wears you right out.
.
.. . . . . . . .
Yes to all you just said..LOL
Ok, I got a pair of pics here.
Me and Jim the real Ele. feeding the wire, and the other end out at the transformer end. Yeah, I had my eyes closed when I saw the camera come out..
View Image
I think Jim was laughing at the farting and grunting
View Image
Lotsa blue goo on the ends, but we got'er done.
This was the first of 4 pulls all the same.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
ahh D you're good....... taking a nap during the lull
are those SqD panels ?.
.
.. . . . . . . .
Yeah, I was also holding back so Jim had to tug harder..LOL.
Yup all SQ.D. The HO likes overkilling on everything, even wanted to buy SQ.D Paint to paint the Galvy Tubs there. We talked him outta that. Those tubs are bolted to the stone basement wall with 7 @ 5/8ths x 4" Simpson Bolts, woulda been 8 ea. but the conduit knocked out one of the predrilled divots. I unibitted the others to get that huge azzed bolt in.
I wanted to hang a uni strut on the wall and bolt the tubs to that, but that would have been to sensible. Tubs are perfectly plumb ( conduit spacers behind) and in plane across the faces. Took awhile to do that with a stone wall and held 6" off the floor.
My nightmare, thats what this job can be at times.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
I agree with you about spacing them off the wall, especially a basement wall wonder how long it will be before the nice tubs start to rust !!
.
.
.. . . . . . . .
Yeah, the 1915 walls aren't well waterproofed , but actually I can still glop on some directly behind the tubs out side, the trench is still open.
The conduit stand offs may allow some air behind the tubs, but it is a damp basement for sure.
Gear going in the tubs Tuesday now, Ele had to bail on us today.
I hung a transfer switch and a 200amp panel in an out building today..I took my time..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
gonna make a lectrician out of you yet :)
good time to see how a "seperately derived system" gets tied in thru that Xfer switch.
.
.. . . . . . . .
I'll get some pics if I get into it, I have a new carp crew starting Tues. AM, I may be baby sitting them most of the day.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_oEx4-Mc4
Thanks for that catch. I am running 20amp circuits, so #10 is perfect, but I did overlook the requirement (not used to running so many hots!)
1] The practical limit for avoiding derating for these sizes [#14, #12 and #10] is nine current carrying conductors. [In other words, the ground [green but the ground, if you look, is actually brown] doesn't count here.]
2] You need just one #10 green, ground wire.
3] As for the wire colors, since these are individual wires in a conduit, the Code insists that white be white and green be green [up to a certain size, I think #6]. [If in Romex or MC cable, then you can use tape, paint, etc. to re-identify the white as for a traveler to a light.]
However the Code doesn't give a hoot about the other colors of the "hot" conductors [like Toscanini and the guy who collects train tickets] [except for orange which is used on the high leg of a delta system].
Since you seem to have two circuits of each size, you should really get a number book and a roll of red tape to keep every thing straight.
You need a roll of #10 green, #10 white, #10 black [+ the red tape if different phase], #12 white and #12 black.
important note: If each of your circuits are on different phases, you can use multiwire and avoid running one of the neutral wires for each pair of circuits.
Just for curiousity, what type of conduit are you running and what are the circuit numbers?
~Peter
Thanks Peter!Here's exactly what I am doing for my workshop (I'm a GC, so normally only mess with simple circuits, but since this is on my dime, thought I'd try and knock it out):Table Saw: 240v/15A - Single Phase
Dust Collector: 240v/12A - Single Phase
Power Feed: 240v/3A - 3 PhaseSo, I was going to run:2 - 10AWG 240v Conductors for Saw on a 20A Breaker
2 - 10AWG 240v Conductors for Dust Collector on a 20A Breaker
3 - 10AWG 240v Three Phase Conductors on a 20A Breaker
1 - 10AWG Equipment GroundAll run in a single 1" EMT conduit.Just trying to avoid having to buy cut lengths of wire in all different colors (expensive) or full rolls of all different colors (lots left over).Am I on track here or way off base?Thanks!
2 - 10AWG 240v Conductors for Saw on a 20A Breaker 20 amp2 - 10AWG 240v Conductors for Dust Collector on a 20A Breaker 12A3 - 10AWG 240v Three Phase Conductors on a 20A Breaker 3 Amp1 - 10AWG Equipment Ground
It seems you have a three phase system. So all your 240 volts would really be 208 volts [unless you have a delta supply].
Depending on distance [voltage drop], perhaps I would suggest:
2 - #10 for saw [black + red]2 - #12 for dust collector [red + blue]4 - #12 for shop power [black + red + blue + white]1 - #10 for ground [green]
~Peter
Thanks again for your help!It's actually 218v on the meter, three phase.I have shop power covered with 20a 110v circuits on the wall, so I am assuming that I can just run the 3 hots for the three phase circuit on #12 and 20a breaker and no neutral, correct?Can I just tape color code the ends of black wire and run a green for ground to save money on wire?Thanks!
Have you checked the motors on the saw and DC to see if they are rated for 208 service?What is the 3 phase for? Where is it coming from and where is it going?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yes, they are both set up for 208. The three phase is for the power feed motor, only 3a at 208v.
What is the three phase for? If it it for say a motor, then it doesn't need a neutral. But if it is for general shop power, then it would.
In this situation, you can tape the hot conductors, but you must use the white and ground conductors.
I am a bit leery of your 218 volt readings. What are they to ground and to the neutral?
~Peter
Three phase is for a power feed for the saw, it is rated at 2.8a/208v.
That reading is phase to phase at the main service panel. I am in Northern California, PG&E, and I know they usually are on the high end of voltages 120v/240v are pretty common out here. I am reading 118v each phase to ground.
If you are going very far you might save money and improve function with a sub panel
Just what I was thinking.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Yeah, I thought about that too, but I am trying to come down to the saw from a 16ft. ceiling, and with a panel, I'd have to run across the floor.