While upgrading a house to 200-amps, I’m reconfiguring the old circuits.
Most of the wiring will take place through attic, where I hope to have several junction boxes from which to serve various rooms/circuits.
I’m wondering about a box with lugs for incoming and outgoing wires.
Is there such a thing or is it prohibited for residential wiring ?
Also, is there a link to information on rules covering junction boxes ?
(I’m planning a visit to the library to see what the code books say.)
thanks for your help,
Alan
Replies
I would simply use a series of 4" square boxes, with box extensions on them if you need them. Each circuit should have its own box whereupon it is split to various outlets or lights. Use some Avery lables to mark the top of the box with the circuit number from your service panel and what it is: "Circuit 7 Bedroom Lights" and mark the conduit/romex coming in and out the same way: "From Panel, Circuit 7 Bedroom Lights" and going out "To Bedroom Lights, Circuit 7".
Yes, there are density codes, and you can not cram a bunch of No. 12 wires into a tiny little box, and pry the top on. For each size box there are a set number of wires allowed to be inside the box, depending on the guage of the wire.
Make sure that once the wires are in the box that the box is grounded with a ground wire and that all the wire nut connections are taped. You need to have a staple on the romex within 8" of the box and elsewhere as needed.
Good Luck!!
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
The "several" junction boxes may make life miserable later. How hard would it be to run a new wire from the panel to its first dropping off point. That is a better solution in my opinion. Just one more spot to troubleshoot and the J boxes are never in comfy places to work, such as attics or crawl spaces.
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
hey boris: good to see you're not 'dissin' :>)
I see there is someone else in the world who still tapes their wire nuts. Following behind alot of old work I see tape lacking quite often. But you should have told Ahneedhelp that his groundwire should be connected to the box with a screw and not those little grounding clips that bend up and fall loose.
I only "dis" people who deserve it. :-)
Of the electrical subs I have hired and worked with, I almost never see them tape wire nuts. It is not required in this City, and no one does it. The only reason I do it, is because that is the way I was taught. I also use colored tape for different circuits. Black for hots, Red for switched, and white for neutral. Grounds get coupled and clipped, not wire nutted.
As for grounds, clips or screws are fine, tomatoe, tomato. I do understand that screws are better but clips take about 2 seconds to install, and there is no pig tail. Potatoe, potato. Most attic and basement junction boxes I see in remodling are ungrounded. No one bothers to ground a junction box in an attic. I mean ground wires are run through the box, but no one bothers, and I can see why. Its not right, but thats the way its done 80% of the time.
I like junction boxes in attics and basements. They are a heck of a lot easier to work with in expanding circuits, rather than a direct cable from service panel to the switch. In the latter case, I find my self working with in a cramped 2" box trying to fish a wire. Ugh! I'd rather be upstairs looking at a 4" box. Different strokes I guess.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
yeah but what do you do if you're down south and it's tomata?
Boris Y
I thought that all ground connections had to have a "mechanical" connection. In other words you gotta use a wire nut. I am not clear if you doing this or not.
If ya got nuts in a j box I guess it would be ok to have a tomato or 2 in it, will have to check with Sparky about the taters
I use a coupler for grounds, a copper sleve of various diameters (depending on the number of ground wires and their gauage) and crimp that rascal. Way easier and more positive of a connection.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Sittin in an attic in July in Georgia lookin at a 4" J box is murder.
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
July or August, say 2PM, black shingles, 2' of blown in fiberglass ( For the full effect go for mineral wool with glass shards large enough to draw blood.) and one of those newer "efficient" unventilated roofs. Attic space is 3' at the ridge and the attic access is 18" by 18" hole in a gable end and situated at the far end of the house.
The A/C ducts run through the center of the trusses so the area along the ridge is no longer available for crawling. This bisecting of the area makes you have to make a blind guess as to which side of the duct you think the junction box is on and face the 50/50 chance that when you get to the expected area you will have to turn around. Crawl, sweating and cursing, most of the way back to get to the other side. A 110' crawl one way.
Take a good thermometer, with a high end of at least 160F, so you can quantify and concentrate on the experience. Any luck at all the ceiling joists will be the older square edged type that feel so good on the knees and the ceiling will be delicate cellulose tiles that fall if touched so you must take it slow.
Be aware that any of those ungrounded metal boxes, ducts or pipes could be live or grounded as your sweaty hands and sweat soaker jeans contact them while you feel your way through the tight spots. Realize that the shock probably wouldn't kill you outright but disable your heat prostrated body so you would slowly die of heat stroke.
Remember to breath. Automatic breathing stops at about 150F. You start to pant with a rasping sound. The fiberglass lines your throat and makes your nose run. You resist the urge to rub the glass out of your eyes. Mask and goggles would be worse.
Mentally thank the roofer for using extra long nails on the shingles as you tear your scalp on the projecting points. Nurse the burn from the 100 watt bulb placed directly in front of the attic access and wonder at how fiberglass feels pounded into it.
Find the 3" round box buried under insulation and 3/4 covered by a dripping pipe. Make a mental note of the leak to tell the homeowner. Marvel at how anyone could get 5 runs of 12/2 into it until you twist off the rusted, remember the leak, screw head and see that the overfill was possible by drastic short wiring of the box. Nope no slack available. Notice that you can't concentrate. Fight the urge to freak out or take a nap. Ignore the itching. Wipe away the snot and blood. Relax and breath deeply.
Make the repairs.
20 minutes later. Collect your tools and crawl out. Realize that your really in danger because the attic only feels hot and you stopped sweating 5 minutes ago. Try to remember where the beds are in case you have to bail out. Rehearse the apology to the homeowner about the hole in the ceiling. Keep going. Try not to bump the ceiling or put any weight on the ancient galvanized steel pipes lest you break a joint.
Get to the access hole. Find that the husband moved the ladder to get the car out of the garage. Yell weakly for help. Realize that no one is coming. Jump the 15' to ground while avoiding the lawn furniture and toys. Try to hit and roll. Twist your ankle and bruise some ribs on a Tonka trucks.
Lay back on the grass and enjoy the now too cool 98F day. Look at the clouds and shiver. Take 5. Drink some water. Notice the lady of the house glaring at your laziness through a window. Smile and get back at it.
Replace the ladder and reinstall the access cover. Test the circuit. Put up the tools and write up a bill. Time 1.5 hours.
Have the homeowner complain about the bill and accuse you of stretching out the job. She "knows" that it wasn't that big a repair because her neighbor said it was a simple job that shouldn't take more than 15 minutes. Drop 20 dollars from the price to keep her happy and get her to sign a check. If this is billed it won't get paid. Resist the urge to slap her silly. Be polite and gracious. Mentally go over several methods of torture for the neighbor.
Try to remember why you got into this trade as you drive to the next job.
Ya. Been there. Done that.
Oh YEAH! you KNOW what I like!!
Very well put!!
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
HA HA! HA HA HA HA! Man that was good. You otta send it in.
Thanks for the replies.
Heavy storm knocked out the access line for our ISP and I wasn't able to check in. Also, Prospero's automatic notice feature doesn't seem to work on a consistant basis.
Yes, I do use 4" metal boxes already and ground them properly with grounding screws. Also, they have covers with labels indicating the circuits and breakers.
Tried the clips and I couldn't make them fig snugly enough for me to feel secure about the connection.
Thanks for mentioning taping the wirenuts.
I do have colored electrical tape and easy enough to open the cover plates and tape away.
And I like the idea of using the crimped copper bands for joining grounds. That would be a tremendous time saver for the upcoming project.
I was hoping to use a lugged junction to avoid using wirenuts and to be able to easily hook up an additional branch or two in the future.
There's probably a whole list of reasons why this isn't commonly done.
I need to look into sizing of some home run cables that have to travel to the other end of the house for some circuits. At which point should I consider going to a heavier gauge then 12-2 ?
I do appreciate the hilariously detailed hot attic essay.
Many of the ordeals I am painfully familiar with.
Edited 5/3/2002 11:16:28 AM ET by Ahneedhelp
12-2 is fine for the everything but the largest of homes.
Anything over about 100 ft you might consider 10 guage. Probably switch to conduit or flex at that point.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Thanks for the speedy reply, president yelstin.
12-2 it is.
I was asking because a lot of old home run wires for outlets in our house is 10 gauge (without ground...).
Take care and thanks again for the replies,
Alan
10 guage would not fit into any outlet or switch. Way too thick.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
I guess I failed to mention 10 gauge was to the junction box, from which several 12-gauge cable run to various points.
I had a heckuva time undoing some of the connections, which were twisted, soldered, and then taped thoroughly back in the 1950s.
>> 10 guage would not fit into any outlet or switch.
If this refers to the push-in terminals on the back of the device, no problem. I wouldn't use the push-ins even if the 10ga. did fit. Somehow it just doesn't seem like fine home building.
And yes, I did see the post about running the 10ga. to the box and switching to 12ga. pigtails, but if I got a wild hair and decided I _had_ to have 10ga. to the outlets, I'd screw it on. Even if it would fit in the push-in holes.
Any manufacturer of the push-in receptacles ought to be hung up and swingin' from the gallows.
Yeah, the push-in can BARELY be called a 'mechanical' connection. Definitely not bonded.
Ken Hill
yeah, someplace in the earlier issues of finehomebuilding I remember reading a little blurb by an electrician who said regarding the push -in recs, something to the effect of him being called in to fix some recs in a house and when he removed the rec they had used the push-ins instead of the screws and metal on the rec was glowing red. Enough said there.
Once again, 4Lorn1's post points out the need for a hall of fame for posts. Well done. Reading it made me break out in a rash imagining all that fiberglass insulation that I've been in contact with...
I think what you are referring to as a lugged conenection is probably a terminal block. There are terminal blocks that are insulated for many different apllication and wire sizes, however I think they are limited to installation in wiring cabinets, not j-boxes.
Maybe IBEW Barry will set us straight about this.
Dave
re - There are terminal blocks that are insulated for many different apllication and wire sizes, however I think they are limited to
installation in wiring cabinets, not j-boxes.
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I think some of you figured out what it is I am after.
However, it's probably overkill for those rare occasions when a junction box needs to be accessed and wirenuts have to be redone.
I should drop the matter and concentrate on the basics.
I'm already doing many of the things suggested at this thread, such as 4" boxes (with cover plates) that are properly grounded and labeled.
And absolutely no push-in connections.
But some of the more expensive outlets seem to have connections that are holes for inserting the wire but it is tightened down with the same screw used for loop around connection. The wire cannot be secured by simply shoving it in - the screw has to be tightened.
Are these a NO-NO also ?
Thanks to everybody who replied.
Alan
You got the good ones. That particular type is what we use in commercial wiring. The screw is acttualy tighteninig a brass plate down on the wire. You get a very solid connection with that type.
Dave