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electrical old work boxes

caseyr | Posted in Construction Techniques on October 4, 2006 03:27am

I assume this has been discussed before, but did some searching and drew blanks.

I need to retrofit some electrical outlets in a wood framed 1/2″ drywall wall. The existing boxes are the types with the little “ears” and are loose as a goose. I have never like the type that just have tabs that tighten to the drywall as they seem to alway work loose over time.

The replacement boxes I like are the ones that have a triangular tab that afixes to the front of the stud and is covered by a drywall patch. Unfortunately, the only such boxes I can find are only 12.5 cu in and seem a bit tight for GFCIs on 12 gauge. (Actually, they seem a bit tight for just standard outlets…) The alternative seems to be a slightly larger box which has a about an 8″ piece of 1/2″ angle attached which is also attached to the front of the wall stud and then the angle continues around the edge of the stud. I assume I could just route out about a 3/4″ or slightly larger channel and shove the thing in and patch the channel.

Any secrets as to the best approach to all this. Is there something better out there that isn’t handled at the big boxes?

How does one go about meeting the code requirement of having the romex or whatever attached at 8″ or so from the outlet box without tearing out a lot of sheet rock? I have a Makita right angle drill which should allow me to put in screws in a smaller opening than if I were to open up enough space to hammer in a staple, but it still requires a hole at least 6″ x 3″ or so.

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Replies

  1. User avater
    BillHartmann | Oct 04, 2006 03:40am | #1

    "The replacement boxes I like are the ones that have a triangular tab that afixes to the front of the stud and is covered by a drywall patch."

    I have never though of those as "replace" boxes, because of the patching.

    Here is a different typeo of old work/repair boxes.

    http://www.aifittings.com/whnew78.htm

    Should be very secure and they are big.

    "How does one go about meeting the code requirement of having the romex or whatever attached at 8" or so from the outlet box without tearing out a lot of sheet rock?"

    There is an exception for when you fish new cables.

    1. caseyr | Oct 04, 2006 04:05am | #2

      Looks great, unfortunately, I assume they are going to be next to impossible to find in a reasonable amount of time. The website gives the distributors but no local vendors, an a Google search gives nothing of use. But thanks, hopefully someday it will be generally available.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 04, 2006 04:21am | #3

        That company makes a number of commonly used electrical products.I have no idea how common that one is.But I have seen these in in a small local distributor.http://www.aifittings.com/whnew73.htmBut they did not have the One Box and I needed that day so I did not try other places.But check with the local supply houses and see what they have.One "common", but not "lega"l method is to do the same thing with regular plastic boxes.I am not sure, but I can't see video's on this machine without rebooting. But this might show what I am talking about.http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/hvt011.aspYou might also want to look at the metal old work box. They have a metal wing on the back and should be more secure that those with the plastic tabs. But I don't know what sizes that they are available in.

      2. migraine | Oct 04, 2006 07:51am | #7

        I bought some of these when I lived in washington. It was either Platt electric or Consolidated Electrical Suppy(CED).  I believe the second

        Hope it helps.  these things are time savers

    2. woodway | Oct 04, 2006 07:35pm | #12

      Totally off subject here but truthfully, have you ever seen such a nice clean cut in drywall as they show in that picture? NOT!

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 04, 2006 08:07pm | #13

        Sure, all of my cutouts look like that.BTW, I have this bridge for sale.

        1. bobguindon | Oct 05, 2006 12:07am | #14

          I'm a TSC (telecommunications systems contractor) in RI - OK, big deal, but I pay the $120.00 annual license fee at the same desk that the electricians, etc. do.

          In any event, I *do* cut in a lot of old-work boxes and low-voltage rings, and I try to cut them using the manufacturer's template or installation instructions.  It is actually pretty easy to get a snug fit, which makes the resulting device secure.

          On a similar note, it amazes me how sloppy most wallboard hangers/finishers are when it comes to working around electrical/low-voltage boxes.  Over-sized plates should be the exception, and not the rule, IMHO.

          Sorry for the rant.

          Bob

          1. JonE | Oct 05, 2006 12:54am | #15

            I've used those Arlington boxes in a couple spots in new construction, where I had to fit a box between two studs or in a tight space and there wasn't enough room to fit a nail-on box.  I don't like the ones with the flange on the side, they bulge the drywall.  Anyway, the Arlington boxes work very well and they are movable if you wind up with more or less wall thickness (for example - you tile a wall that wasn't indicated as tile in the original plans). 

    3. rez | Oct 07, 2006 12:05am | #22

      Couldn't find a price on those 'One-Box'.

      You happen to know?

      "When we build, let us think that we build forever.  Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world.  Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 07, 2006 12:31am | #23

        Nope.Someone else said that they used them in this thread.

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Oct 07, 2006 12:33am | #24

        Here is one online place that has them.http://www.galesburgelectric.com/store/product.php?productid=1752$1.36

        1. rez | Oct 07, 2006 12:47am | #25

          That's the cat's meow.

          "When we build, let us think that we build forever.  Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world.  Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day

      3. JonE | Oct 07, 2006 12:52am | #26

        http://www.aifittings.com/loc_1.htm 

  2. jpeeks | Oct 04, 2006 04:42am | #4

    if you need to just secure the boxes that are already in the wall you may want to look into madison clips. 

  3. JTC1 | Oct 04, 2006 05:10am | #5

    Option 1: Not sure if a madison clip is the same, but I would try the flat, u shaped anchors which slip in alongside of the existing box, then the two tabs bend over the edge and into the box.  Sold at big boxes as pairs and just called a box anchor - have also heard an alleged trade name of Hold-It.

    Option 2: a hard shell plastic old work box by Carlon - GFCI + 12's will fit: or use a double gang box if you need more space - GFCI+blank cover plate may be a trick to get though.

    Option 3: 4" square metal box screwed to the stud through the side of the box with appropriate cover plate. Viable option only if in a "rough" area - not too pretty.

    All materials for above 3 options are big box items.

    Jim

    Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

  4. nikkiwood | Oct 04, 2006 05:41am | #6

    If you go to the electrical department at any home center, they will have at least one or two styles of "old work" boxes. All of them will have wings of one sort or another that tighten up behind the drywall as you screw the box in place.

    Personally, I prefer the fiberglass boxes, which are studier than plastic, but still don't require that a ground wire be attached to the box (as the metal boxes do).

    With any of these boxes, you don't have to do any damage to the drywall that would require patching; just cut a hole in the rock to fit the box through. Some even give you a template for that purpose.

    ********************************************************
    "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

    John Wooden 1910-

  5. FrankDuVal | Oct 04, 2006 03:16pm | #8

    CaseyR says: "The existing boxes are the types with the little "ears" and are loose as a goose. I have never like the type that just have tabs that tighten to the drywall as they seem to alway work loose over time."

    Are you talking of "Madison Clips", the "U" shaped metal pieces that crimp over metal boxes, or metal boxes with folding tabs on the sides, or plastic boxes with wings that swing out to grab drywall while tightening?

    I've never had a problem with the tab or wing type. Sometimes I come across a Madison Clip box that needs recrimping as the sharp edges cut into the drywall after a while.

    Frank DuVal

    You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

  6. renosteinke | Oct 04, 2006 04:25pm | #9

    There are a couple of different styles of "Old work" boxes out there. An electrical supply house should be able to supply boxes almost twice as deep as "standard" ones. Since you mentioned your boxes being cramped, you may be using a type that is even more "shallow."

    Especially when using a cable (like Romex), the box relies upon a tight fit to the hole for a secure mounting. Even under the best of circumstances, they are nowhere near as secure as a box that in mounted to a stud. Also, different styles, brands all require slightly different holes.

    Add some time, some moisture, and the drywall is even less secure than when you started.

    The best solution- especially if you need to fix the wall anyway- is to use a bracketed 4" square box, mounted to the stud, with the proper mud ring.

    As for securing the cable.... the code allows an exception where the cable is "fished."

  7. BryanSayer | Oct 04, 2006 05:57pm | #10

    I'm not sure if I'm picturing this right, but if you have a box with a right angle "wing" on it that is designed to fit on the surface of a stud, and you can find a place to fit the box between drywall fastners, couldn't you cut the hole for the box next to the stud, slide the wing behind the drywall and over the stud, then just put two drywall screws through the drywall, wing, and into the stud? Then you don't have to patch drywall (just fill the screw dimple), and it should be plenty sturdy.

    1. caseyr | Oct 05, 2006 02:08am | #16

      The problem is that someone in the past did a hack job of wiring one wall. The existing boxes are 12 cu in, which are way too small for rewiring with 12 gauge and GFCIs or even the regular outlets downstream from the GFCI. Also the holes are cut way sloppy, so I thought I would just cut out a little space for the triangle tab and insert the box and screw it in and patch the small area. Unfortunately, the only such metal boxes I have found are 16.5 which is about one cu in too small to meet code. I did find some 18 cu in plastic boxes with a tab so I may use those. Unfortunately they don't have a conduit cutout in the back, so I will have to drill a hole as I am feeding them through the wall from the garage with conduit. I am sure that cutting out a hole in a listed box that doesn't come with one is only some kind of a minor technical violation, right.

      1. nikkiwood | Oct 05, 2006 03:15am | #17

        If you're going to cut away the sheetrock so you can attach a box to a stud, you could use a double box with a single mudring.That will give you plenty of room in the box, and still have a hole that is sized for a single outlet.********************************************************
        "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

        John Wooden 1910-

  8. mikeingp | Oct 04, 2006 06:19pm | #11

    "How does one go about meeting the code requirement of having the romex or whatever attached at 8" or so from the outlet box without tearing out a lot of sheet rock?"

    A "new-work" plastic box doesn't have clamps (just knock out holes), which is why the requirement for the staple within 8". Old work boxes must have clamps where the wire enters the box, and you don't have to secure the wire to the stud.

  9. davemica | Oct 05, 2006 04:03am | #18

    HD/Lowes, any supply house sells a 20 cu inch old work plastic box, these will hold a gfi just fine. As long as you cut your hole reasonably carefully these work well and require no patching.

    They same places also sell an 18 cu inch metal box with front ears, these have 1/2 and even 3/4 knockouts for conduit. You can gang them together by removing the sides. You hold them in with the Madison hold-its ("battleships") that you slip into the wall and fold over the front of the box.

    When the hole gets mangled beyond hope, a judicious amount of great stuff will glue almost anything into submission, and if that doesn't work it's time to cut yourself a hole in the drywall, fasten some blocking or a bracket to the nearest framing and screw the box to that.

  10. User avater
    Dinosaur | Oct 05, 2006 05:06am | #19

    The type of box I use works well either for new or old work. Like a Gem box, it can be ganged by removing one side, but this type has small hooks that set it on the stud at the right depth for ½" gyprock, and angled holes so you can attach it to the stud with a pair of #8x¾" RH screws from outside the box with the gyprock already in place.

    See the photo below. In the row of four bumps near the front edge of that side plate, the inner two are drilled and have the holes angled so you can drive the screws from the front of the box.

    View Image

    The one in the pic is 12.5 cu.in. (2½" deep), but it can be had in a 3" deep version which would give you more room for the 12ga wire behind that GFCI. There is also a version with bellied-out side plates which give you more room on the sides. (That would require a wider hole in the gyprock, however, and might cause you to need an oversize cover plate.)

    Iberville makes them, but I can't get past the #$%&*?%#$%! flash-intro to the catalog page on their website, so I can't get a product link for you. Try http://www.tnb.ca/flashintro.html if you have a high-speed connection and the blinkin' flash-player software. (Stupid, self-centered webmasters who think everyone has the same software they do, grrrr....)

    Dinosaur

    How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
    low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
    foolish men call Justice....

    1. caseyr | Oct 06, 2006 04:33am | #20

      Thanks folks, I think I will go with the 4" square box as my Makita angle drill is a little under 3 1/4" from the back of the gear box to the tip of the #2 Phillips, which leaves me just enough room to drive a 3/4" screw.All of the existing boxes appear to be 12.5 cu in. I see they still sell these. What are they good for? Unless I am reading the wrong formula, even a single switch on 14 gauge wire would require 14 cu in.

      1. mikeingp | Oct 06, 2006 08:34pm | #21

        You're right, but only if the box has internal clamps and if you're running two cables into the box. If no clamps, then one for the switch, one for the grounds, and 2 whites and 2 blacks make 6, which equals 12 cubic inches. Or you could run the power to the light first, so only one cable to the switch box. You could also use a 12.5 inch box for the outlet at the end of a run.

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