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Discussion Forum

Electrical Outlet in Window Sill

stormyweather | Posted in General Discussion on August 2, 2007 01:05am

I am trying to solve a problem in conforming to code for electrical outlets and kitchen counters. I have a 15′ window behind a kitchen counter, sink in the middle, and no backsplash. The window sill will be about an inch above the counter top. Forum members have suggested Mockett’s PCS34 but I’m hoping for another solution.

ECA has a product called Top Notch 2  http://www.electri-cable.com/tnotch2.htm that has two outlets that could possibly mount in the window sill and then plug into the GFI outlet the same as the Mockett does. I am also considering floor outlets in the window sill. I know I could mount outlets in the cabinets in filler strips below the counter top but hope not to use this approach. I have also run across a product called Sillites http://www.sillites.com/ which are candles that plug into outlets in the window sill. There seems to be no problem installing outlets in the sills, but I’m wondering if the kitchen location changes the rules.

My question is: What does the NEC say about installing outlets in the window sill? Can I install a GFI outlet in the kitchen sill the same as any other sill?

Thanks in advance for your input.

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  1. JTC1 | Aug 02, 2007 01:42am | #1

    I think you might be in trouble with the sill outlets because of the elevation above the (wet) countertop - post says only an inch or so, although my reading of NEC only mentions a maximum elevation and no minimum elevation.

    The sillite outlets (or the top notch boxes) could be fed by a GFCI breaker and solve that problem. 

    I would think the top notch - plug-in cord would raise a few eyebrows in a permanent installation.  Sounds iffy to me - run it past the local BI and see what he says.

    I suspect that conventional outlets in filler strips might be a better solution although that will doom you to having cords crossing the counter.

    Sorry, don't have any great ideas. Someone will be along --- Bill???

    Jim

    Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.



    Edited 8/1/2007 7:03 pm ET by JTC1

    1. stormyweather | Aug 02, 2007 04:20am | #2

      Thanks for the feedback. Your right. Things do look abit iffy. Everything will be fed by either GFI outlet or CB, but there's alot of information on the available products and alot that's open to interpretation; even some of the solutions presented by the manufacturers have me wondering how they can be acceptable. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble finding a solid solution (other than the filler strips). I'm going to gather what I can and have a meeting with the local BIs to hopefully resolve this. They've done a great job so far, but have never been presented with this kind of design (no backsplash). Even my electrician is shaking his head. Thanks again.

      1. VaTom | Aug 02, 2007 04:49am | #3

        Could be worse.

        My similar sink (no backsplash, just window) is on a concrete wall, dw directly next to it.  Within 24"? 

        Not much chance of that happening.  I offered to remove the dw until after inspections.  BI let me put in a (temporary) outlet in the sink false panel.  I hadn't yet installed the tip-out hardware.  PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

  2. edlee | Aug 02, 2007 04:57am | #4

    My question is: What does the NEC say about installing outlets in the window sill? Can I install a GFI outlet in the kitchen sill the same as any other sill?

    There's nothing in the counter-top requirement code section 210.52(C) that would prohibit it and I can't think offhand of any other reason that it would prohibited.  All it says is that they must be installed within 20" above the countertop.

    Put'm in the window sill.

    You could even make an admittedly weak argument that there are no outlets required along that section of counter: the relevent paragraph 210.52(C)(1) is titled "Wall Counter Spaces . A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space that is 12 in. or more wide, etc.".

    If it's all window, then it's not a wall  :-)

     

    Ed

    1. stormyweather | Aug 02, 2007 06:04pm | #9

      Thanks to everyone for giving me your input. I got alot of great feedback. I'll be looking over the NEC and then approach the inspectors with a plan.

      Ed, your comment   "If it's all window, then it's not a wall  :-)" had me doubled up.  I've read alot of marketing propaganda lately on this and that approach may not be far fetched. 

      VaTom: The dishwasher is next to the sink which, as you said, makes it just about impossible to meet the 2' rule without going to the sill or, as you did, putting the temporary plug in the tray.

      I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks again for everyone's input.

  3. edlee | Aug 02, 2007 05:04am | #5

    Oh, and  I guess you don't want to mess up the look with plugmold, right?  That's the obvious first solution besides the outlets in the sill.

     

    E.

  4. grpphoto | Aug 02, 2007 05:28am | #6

    Sillites are fairly obviously 15 amp, and so won't meet the code, but there are commercial outlets intended to be mounted in floors that will do the job if that's the way you want to go.

    George Patterson
    1. JTC1 | Aug 02, 2007 02:42pm | #7

      George,

      >>Sillites are fairly obviously 15 amp, and so won't meet the code,<<

      15A receptacles are permitted on a 20A circuit per NEC 2005, Table 210.21(B)(3) and repeated in Table 210.24, Summary of Branch-Circuit Requirements. These tables refer to a circuit which supplies 2 or more receptacles which this kitchen circuit most probably will.

      In our county, you will only rarely find 20A receptacles in this location - 98+% have 15A receptacles installed in 20A circuits.

      My reading on this section is if you are installing a 20A circuit and feeding only a single receptacle then you must use a 20A receptacle - a new line to feed a window air conditioner would be an example.

      If the 20A circuit has 2 or more receptacles, such as this kitchen counter circuit, the receptacles may be either 20A or 15A.

      Our local BI's agree with my reading.

      Jim

      Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Aug 02, 2007 04:01pm | #8

        Also remember that the common duplex receptacle is TWO receptacles..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. JTC1 | Aug 03, 2007 12:36am | #11

          Right you are!

          However, the sillite receptacles the OP is considering are singles, at least that is what shows on their web page.

          Like I said before, and he is in the process of doing - run it past the local BI before getting too far involved!

          What is your take on this whole situation ??  I trust your judgement and intimate knowledge of the NEC.

          Jim

          Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

  5. MikeHennessy | Aug 02, 2007 11:10pm | #10

    Check with your inspector. Mine gave me a bye in a similar circumstance, so long as I put one as close a possible next to the window.

    Mike Hennessy
    Pittsburgh, PA

  6. IdahoDon | Aug 04, 2007 01:46am | #12

    Regardless of the letter of the code, the inspector may let it slide given the situation.  He may have other interpretations of allowable alternatives and some that seem as good as others may not be allowed at all.

    If you don't want the outlet there at all add a surface mount box with a hot glue gun and I won't tell if you later remove it.

    If you want an outlet, but don't want it to be visable then use a floor box, a specialty pull up box, or recess the outlet slightly and install a nice clean "lid" to cover the outlet and blend in with the counter top.  There's  even a lot to be said for an outlet mounted down in a box so the recepticles are actually vertical, with a notched cover so cords can be plugged in, the excess cord pushed into the box and the cover replaced, much like a large cover plate as seen on computer desks.  Granite tops are no problem using this method, but it's a challenge to get the fabricator to get the openings real smooth because it's a small space and too tight for most polishing tools.

    Along the same lines, it's acceptable to mount the outlet in front of the cabinets BEHIND false fronts that can be removed by hand.  For instance if there is room to design a shallow drawer front into a box, such as would be common for a sink tip out, simply put the outlet behind the false front and problem solved.  On the end pannel of cabinets with a fixed decrative pannel, simply hinge the pannel and put the outlet behind it.

    Similarly, it's not wrong to make a hidden hinged door in or around the window trim to conceal an outlet.  I will not admit to placing an outlet at exactly the location of a planned pot, nor will I entertain the idea that an unnessesary outlet was purposefully placed midway up a wall directly behind a piece of kitchen art.  If an outlet was placed behind a false toe kick or soffit, held on with super magnets, it was surely someone else who did it.

    Magnets are a great way to hold larger backspash tile in place for a concealed access panel, much like we do for the plumbing for water jet bath tubs.

    And never, ever have I installed an island on glides so it isn't considered permanent and thus excaping the outlet requirement! Never.  Ever.  Don't ask don't tell.

    Sometimes flush mounting an outlet to the underside of an upper cabinet is the least intrusive, or surface mounting one behind a large undercabinet light.

    When we build a concealed area to hide an outlet, we simply leave the door off during inspection.   The inspector knows what we're doing, but as long as it meets code by being operable by hand he's fine with it.

     

     

    Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

    1. stormyweather | Aug 04, 2007 05:23am | #13

      IdahoDon... great input. It's looking like I'll have to be as creative to solve this one. I'm going to be presenting a couple of solutions in the next two weeks (leaving for a week of vacation, but will be thinking of this;). One will be variance from having to have any outlets at all. I have looked at the window jam (The 15' window consists of a double casement on each end of a picture window) but in order to meet wind load and pressure there's a steel bar used to mull the two window types together. Thanks again for the input.

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