Last March we used a licensed and bonded electrician with a good Angies List review rating to replace our electrical panel. It looked like a good job with clean wire runs and nicely labled breakers. The problem is that it was not inspected when we did it. Today a lamp shorted out and my wife called another electrician. The electrician fixed our problem but prepared a big list of items that he considered wrong. I understand the new electrician has an agenda and wants to sell the repairs to the box, a new surge protector, and an alarm system (unrelated I know.)
I think I should get the panel inspected to see what really might be wrong. What is your thought on that? Also, what are your thoughts on the surge protector? Thanks in advance.
Replies
Where ya live?
Here in WA, per RCW19.28, the original electrician would be at risk of losing license for doing unpermitted work for hire.
Some states will even pay you a bounty for 'ratting them out'.
Need for surge protection depends on where you live.
PS: BTW, that is what the 'bond' in your original description of 'bonded' means?
I'm in Dallas Texas. Thanks for the info. It sounds like I need to proceed with the inspection and then go back to the oroginal electricians for remediation. Is that what you'd recommend?
What were a few of the problems the new electrician cited?
Sorry to just get back to you now, but work got in the way. Here is the list he left with my wife:
Breakers - Arc Fault - unprotected
Panel - Aluminum compenents
GFCI - Kitchen unprotected - in use covers not present
Electrical service/Meter base - outdated
Home Surge Protection - unprotected
They also tried to sell an alarm system but I don't really consider that electric. What do you all think? Based on what you've said so far I think I'll go for the surge protector. Thanks.
Assuming 'unprotected' means that there are none e.G. no arc fault protection breakers, etc.
So: original post - a lamp shorted out - the CB panel had zero to do with the lamp shorting, the guy jou got in is like the folks that offer 'free car inspections' - suddenly you will die in a wreck next week if you dont spend big $$$$, etc.
Sounds like your original electrician did a good job, the current guy is fishing for $$$.
Breakers - Arc Fault - unprotected -- AFCI are one big ripoff, more false triggers thananything else, and biggest reason for being in the most recent code is to put $$$ into mfg and electricians pockets. (see note 1)
Panel - Aluminum compenents What BS, what panel nowadays does NOT have aluminum components, sales pitch only.
GFCI - Kitchen unprotected - in use covers not present see note 1, also, as I have given seminars on electrical safety, a few years ago I tried to research 'how many lives were saved' by GFCI and how many injuries. Not may, cost/benefit ratio is nearly non-existent, but required by most recent codes. BTW, the ONLY GFCI connected at my own residence is in the greenhouse, as it is an outlet without a ground and DW is the one who uses it most often and no power tools. I do have about 30 GFCI outlets in the house but they are shop stock <G>
Electrical service/Meter base - outdated Unless you only have an old 60A only service, this is just a sales pitch. To me, outdated or unsafe would only be the old stablock breakers, even old screw in fuses are OK from a safety standpoint.
Home Surge Protection - unprotected See previous comments - the post on surge protection being dependent on the house grounding configuration is an important consideration. If you do not have a good ground (1 or 2 or even 3 simply driven ground rods are ineffective for lightning unless you live in a salt water marsh) you might as well not bother - the pug in surge protection strips will do just as good a job. You ARE talking big $$$$ to establish a good ground if you dont have a concrete enclosed electrode system or a fully metallic water systm and meter jumper.
note 1. designed a NASA mandated GFCI for the space station in the 1990s ---- some safety weenies in Huntspatch 'improved' on it to the point that they have all been disconnected due to false trips. DId not do any AFCI circuits, but hear same thing happened.
Hope this helps.
New code requires arc fault detectors in bedroom circuits, but I can't see that this would be required just because the panel was replaced, and lots of fairly knowledgeable people here and elsewhere question whether AFCIs make sense or are just there due to the lobbying of their manufacturers.
Lots of panels have some aluminum components. If it was a new, UL listed panel then that should be fine. If, on the other hand, the comment means that your house has some aluminum wiring (other than the main service entrance cable) then that requires some special treatment at the panel and at the fixtures. (Aluminum wiring might be present if your house was built in the late 60s or early 70s.)
The kitchen should have GFCIs for any outlet within several feet of the sink, either as GFCI breakers in the panel or as GFCI outlets. Same goes for all outlets in bathrooms or outside. (The kitchen GFCIs wouldn't have been required prior to about 1980, and the bathroom/outside GFCIs before about 1975.) If these GFCIs are not present they should be added, a relatively inexpensive job.
If "in use covers" simply means the outlet covers are missing then obviously they should be installed. If "in use covers" means that the outlets don't have what is known as "in use covers", those are only required for outside outlets where something may remain plugged in long-term -- I've never heard of requiring them inside. If you really do need an "in use cover" somewhere it's a simple DIY job.
Hard to say what might be "out of date" about the meter base. Certainly if the base dates from the 50s or before it's likely a bit antequated, but, then, so are a lot of other things about the house. Shouldn't be unsafe, so long as the proper size main breakers are used.
Surge protection is wise, but I've never heard of it as a code requirement. But if you feel that a "whole house" surge protector is meritied, don't forget to also protect cable TV and DSL connections. These require separate dedicated surge protectors -- the "whole house" protector doesn't cover them and damage through these connections is probably several times more likely than damage due to surges on the power lines. And if you have an overhead TV antenna it also needs a lightning arrestor, as does any rotor cable.
Anyway, based on that list, and on the "smell" of it, I'd suggest you have someone else do any additional work.
"The kitchen should have
"The kitchen should have GFCIs for any outlet within several feet of the sink,"
Statement is factually wrong and you might want to review the actual requirements. There are similar mis-statements in the rest of the paragraph regarding GFCI requirements.
"Hard to say what might be "out of date" about the meter base."
Probably the hardest thing to say is "I don't know." If you don't know, don't guess. We need facts
"Surge protection is wise"
I have no idea what the guy meant by 'surge protection,' and would need to see what the actual recommendation was. Without those details, I can't say if it's "wise" or not.
For that matter, 'surge suppression" and 'lightning protection' are entirely different topics.
"New code requires arc fault detectors in bedroom circuits"
Another incorrect representation of the code requirements. There's also the 'existing' issue to address. Can't really say without knowing the job details. Whether or not AFCI's are a scam by manufacturers is not relevant to this discussion.
One really ought to limit their advice to topics where they are competent ... rather than guessing. This ain't some living room economics discussion.
"The kitchen should have
"The kitchen should have GFCIs for any outlet within several feet of the sink,"
Statement is factually wrong and you might want to review the actual requirements. There are similar mis-statements in the rest of the paragraph regarding GFCI requirements.
"Hard to say what might be "out of date" about the meter base."
Probably the hardest thing to say is "I don't know." If you don't know, don't guess. We need facts
"Surge protection is wise"
I have no idea what the guy meant by 'surge protection,' and would need to see what the actual recommendation was. Without those details, I can't say if it's "wise" or not.
For that matter, 'surge suppression" and 'lightning protection' are entirely different topics.
"New code requires arc fault detectors in bedroom circuits"
Another incorrect representation of the code requirements. There's also the 'existing' issue to address. Can't really say without knowing the job details. Whether or not AFCI's are a scam by manufacturers is not relevant to this discussion.
One really ought to limit their advice to topics where they are competent ... rather than guessing. This ain't some living room economics discussion.
Get the surge protector.It is cheap insurance. Also be sure your grounding electrode system is done well and that the phone/cable/satellite is connected to it.. As for the other stuff, what did he list?
Certainly a surge protector is often a good idea, but I''m not aware that code anywhere requires it. And I'd be suspicious of this guy pushing it -- a panel mounted unit runs about $50 and takes all of five minutes to install, but I'll bet he manages to run that up to $200.
A lot depends on what you get with your surge protector installation. If the guy just connects up the protector and walks away, charging $150 labor, it is highway robbery. If this is the reason for the service call and they also do a full analysis of the grounding, the connection of the other vendors and maybe even adding an additional electrode, it is not that bad a deal. Texas gets plenty of storms and a blown up TV or computer is a lot more than $200.
Considering the situation here, I would think adding the surge protector would be a smaller labor charge since fixing the ground electrical electrode system should be part of a panel install.
I still would not trust the trunk slammers the TV/telco hire to properly ground their equipment.
Have you ruled out a defective fixture? For $4, you might go get a circuit tester and plug it into the outlets to look for a wiring fault. I had a surge protector / battery backup for my computers and it had a light on it that indicated a wiring fault. I plugged in the circuit tester and it indicated it was wired backwards. Pulled off the outlet and sure enough, the black and white wires were reversed.
Electrical panel screwup. ( Post # 205774 )
I have been reading the post from the other respondents and while some of them are informative there are a few that make your head swim. Let's return to the problem at hand. You did a panel upgrade by an electrician recommended from Angie's List ,a lamp shorted out, your wife called in another electrician, and started a snowball effect. Now the question is ,did you screw up by not acquiring a permite which would have resulted in an inspection.
Perhaps you did but you will recover from this so don't worry . Lets stay focused, and remove the second elctrician for the time being and put what he told you on the back burner.
Call or go down to the permits office and inquire about getting a permit for a service upgrade. You as the home owner should be able to pull this.You will want to talk to an inspector , they are in their office in the morning hours before they go into the field. Don't go into details with these people on any work that has been done, tell them if they ask that you are going to have installed a new 200 amp service if that's what you had done so far,playing dumb is key at this time. While you are there ask them about contacting the power company about the service upgrade and obtaining a reference number. This number is one key to completing the upgrade, you should be able to take care of these two at the same time ( permite, reference number ). If for some reason you can't, then you are still one step in the right direction, you will leave there armed with the information needed.
If all went well and you obtained the permite then somebody from the power company should get in touch with you about the upgrade, at this point set a time up for them to come out and look at the meter base to determine if it needs to be changed out as well . This puts you two steps in the right direction, and gives you more information and more piece of mind. Ask about surge protection while there, and any other concerns you may have or have been told pertaining to the upgrade only.
If you need a new meter base install or any thing additional then I would contact the first electrician to do the work , he started the job let him finish, or at lest give him the operatunity to turn the job down. He shouldn't ,for his reputation is on the table with Angie's List. His ability has only been determined by the second electrician at this point in time. Call for an inspection and let the inspector determin the quality of the job. If your inspection goes well the first time your off to the next little big job, if not then you know what has to be done. While the inspector is there ask him about the other items on the list from the second electrician.
If your dealing with building or utility permits they are there for two main reasons .
one money to the city but most importentley Insurance, these permits cover your backside with the homeowners if any thing should go wrong and that is you real piece of mind. The cost of all this ?, but still cheaper than than the alternative.
Of course, the guy never said anything about upgrading the service, nor is there any evidence that it's necessary (though, admittedly, no evidence to the contrary).
As to permits, while the rules in most parts of the countrry would require one for a panel replacement, the "unwritten rules" in some areas may run to the contrary, either because the inspectors don't want to be bothered or because they're royal PITAs if the guy doing the work isn't a close relative.
After reading the punchg list, it is questionable if there were any code violations. A lot of AHJs do not require the rest of the house be brought up to code on a panel swap. (AFCIs in particular).. Of all of those I would pick on the kitchen GFCIs as the biggest safety issue and the surge protection as the biggest property protection issue.
The AHJ still may not have the authority to enforce the GFCI issue since the kitchen was not on the permit.
I also suspect the OP was shopping price so he got the guy who was hitting a price point. Adding a dozen or more AFCIs will add $500 to the bid, simply in materials. The 2008 code requires them in vertually every 120v circuit that is not GFCI. (and some need both)
So the OP Should Lie?
Homeowners only get to pull permits for work THEY do. Work they hire out requires the contractor to be licensed, and to pull the permit.
Don't mention existing work? Play dumb? How about ... honestly coming clean about your ignorance, and letting them actually do their jobs and go after the trunk-slammers? How about asking your public servants what the rules really require?
The power company should send someone out to talk to you? Not in this universe. The way it works is you get the permit, the PoCo disconnects, you replace, the city inspects, and the city has the PoCo reconnect. In that order.
Might be worthwhile for you to go to the PoCo and find out what their rules are, too. For that 200A upgrade mentioned, the PoCo might require a proper load calculation, with a contractors' stamp on it. You won't know until you ask.
Not to be rude, but .... unless you have at least a Masters' electrical qualification, it's best you not try to guess.
One needs to know the EXACT details of the installation, and the dispute, to venture a guess. You also need the exact list provided by the second guy.
The OP can PM me pics of the meter / service, pics of the panel (no need to take off the cover yet), a pic of anything mentioned on the list - and the list. I'll be happy to respond.
There are at least two other qualified folks here. "Electrical Engineers," home inspectors, and the like are not qualified.
FWIW, I am licensed in three states: Oregon, Nevada, and Arkansas.
I can't give you an exact answer, but I can help you sort out the claims- but I need actual facts, rather than summaries.
Others need to consider this tale a caution against hiring 'side workers' or otherwise trying to cut corners. You also need to be aware that there are unethical firms out there.