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Electrical Question

mikerooney | Posted in General Discussion on December 13, 2003 06:12am

This is for you electricians – or maybe for the mental health professionals:

Installed 6″ old work IC can lights in dining rm./kitchen.

75W halogen bulbs

Four on a two-way w/ dimmer at one end.

Four w/ just one dimmer .

Two w/  dimmer.

DW says the “noise ” is driving her crazy ( a relatively short commute).

She says they all make “noise”, but the four on the single dimmer are the worst,

Of course that’s the one over Din. table.

We’re both mid-fifties w/ tinnitis.

Need REALITY CHECK!

Or something I can print out to shut her up.

SHE WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME.

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Replies

  1. TrimButcher | Dec 14, 2003 11:02pm | #1

    Maybe she won't listen to you because you keep telling her she's crazy?  In this case, she ain't.  I can verify that certain dimmed lights (even incandescents) buzz and it's an incredibly annoying low-level white noise.

    For incandescents, I put in tri-light bulbs (bulbs with 3 wattage levels) and for some reason that stops the buzzing.  I don't know why they buzz (RF generated by the rheostat?) and I don't know why tri-lights don't buzz.

    Most halogens aren't rated to be used with dimmers.  But I believe that there are dimmer switches specifically rated for halogens.

    Regards,

    Tim Ruttan

    1. JohnSprung | Dec 18, 2003 02:09am | #22

      > Most halogens aren't rated to be used with dimmers.  But I believe that there are dimmer switches specifically rated for halogens.

      The deal on halogens and dimmers is that they'll work together, but lamp life may be shortened.

      Ordinary incandescent bulbs are a tungsten filament surrounded by argon gas in a borosilicate glass envelope.  Halogens are a tungsten filament, halogen gas, and a quartz envelope.   In both cases, tungsten evaporates off the filament during use.  If the envelope is cool enough, as it must be with borosilicate, and it can be if you dim a halogen, that tungsten can condense on the inside of the bulb and darken it.  This also weakens the filament.   Halogens running at full brightness are hot enough that this plating out doesn't happen.  When you turn them off, most of the tungsten vapor redeposits on the filament.  If you turn the halogens up full for about 5 minutes before shutting them down, you can dim them with little or no loss of life.  20 - 30 years ago when I was shooting film, a 10,000 watt halogen lamp was about $1200, so it was worth the bother to do this.

      -- J.S.

  2. DavidThomas | Dec 15, 2003 01:14am | #2

    "need a REALITY CHECK!"

    With or without tinnitis, women hear better in the high frequencies.  So it is completely plausible that she's hearing a real noise that you don't. 

    Swap out for regular bulbs (briefly) and note if it makes a difference.  You might then know to focus on bulbs, bulb/dimmer combo, or dimmer only.

    David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
    1. mikerooney | Dec 15, 2003 01:22am | #3

      David, 

         Will do. Thanks.

                      Mike"If we' treading on thin ice,

      Then we might as well dance".

  3. JohnSprung | Dec 17, 2003 03:48am | #4

    Dimmers work by turning off at the zero crossing of the sine wave, and turning abruptly on after some delay.  The rapidly rising wave form induces a big magnetic pulse in the coiled wire of the filament, causing it to contract like a screen door spring, 120 times per second.  A 90 degree delay, about half power, makes the biggest jump. 

    The dimmer has an inductor in it to partially counteract this.  Higher quality and higher wattage dimmers will have bigger and better inductors, so they'll buzz less.  Rough service incandescent lamps have long filaments with many supports instead of short coils, so they're pretty nearly buzzless.

    Sometimes filament vibration couples either mechanically or magnetically to steel parts of the fixture, which act like a tin pan piano sounding board.  That really buzzes a lot.

    -- J.S.

    1. mikerooney | Dec 17, 2003 04:22am | #5

       John,

        Thanks for the excellent explanation! Think I actually understand most of it! I replaced four bulbs over the Din. rm. table, and she says it is a great improvement.

        I really liked the light from the Halogena's, but she never did. I'll be replacing the other six tomorrow.

        If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!

                                                     - Mike"If we're treading on thin ice,

        Then we might as well dance."

      1. tenpenny | Dec 17, 2003 05:12pm | #6

        Don't necessarily blame it on the halogens; in our kitchen, we have 6 halogen pot lights on a 3 way with a dimmer; also 3 undercabinet halogens on a dimmer (full voltage, not those 12v oones); and 3 pendants over the island.  I only hear a faint buzzing from the dimmer if it's turned down to almost nothing. 

        Most halogen line voltage lights are just fine on a dimmer; maybe the dimmer needs to be a better quality; maybe we are just lucky. 

        1. mikerooney | Dec 17, 2003 05:28pm | #7

          TenPenny,

            The only way I can hear the buzzing, is if I stand on the table with my ear 4" from the bulb!

            But I've been hearing the dear woman complain about it for over a year now. Twenty five bucks for new bulbs is IMO well worth it.

            I have some cheapo florescents downstairs in my shop that I've never been happy with -  I may put some cans in down there and hope she doesn't tell me she can hear them through the floor!                

                                                                - Mike"If we're treading on thin ice,

            Then we might as well dance."

        2. Ruby | Dec 17, 2003 05:30pm | #8

          Not trying to change the subject, but do others hear some noise when switching the channels with a remote control?

          Is the noise in the control or the TV or both?

          It is an infrared control, so I didn't expect it to be making any "noise". Had an ultrasonic control many years ago and rattling the keys would change the channels.

          Have a new puppy that thinks she hears something when I use that control.

          Am I that deaf or is she pulling my leg?

          Have never heard any lights buzzing but when the furnace comes on, some wire rattles loudly in the walls for about two seconds. Electrician could not find where but said it didn't seem to hurt anything.

          Glad that you had such good answers to the dimmer noise and now peace will reign at your house.<g>

          1. marv | Dec 17, 2003 05:51pm | #9

             

            Not trying to change the subject, but do others hear some noise when switching the channels with a remote control?

            Not trying to change the subject, but do others hear strange voices talking to them when no one is around?  Just asking.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

            Marv

          2. Ruby | Dec 17, 2003 06:07pm | #10

            ---"...do others hear strange voices talking to them when no one is around? ..."---

            When turning the TV off, after listening to the news, I still hear them talking for a few minutes longer but can't quite tell what they are saying.

            Central auditory processing "noise" echoing in our brains. Nothing to worry about, YET.<G>

          3. User avater
            SamT | Dec 17, 2003 08:54pm | #14

            Not trying to change the subject, but do others hear strange voices talking to them when no one is around? 

            Yes, but they told me their message was just for me and to tell no one what they said.

            SamT

            "You will do me the justice to remember that I have always strenuously supported the right of every man to his opinion, however different that opinion may be to mine. He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it."   Thomas Paine

          4. marv | Dec 17, 2003 10:00pm | #18

            Yes, but they told me their message was just for me and to tell no one what they said.

            I'm glad I'm not the only one! 

            P.S. Do you thing the government secretly listens to every conversation we have?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

            Marv

          5. AlanSenoj | Dec 17, 2003 11:13pm | #19

             

            P.S. Do you think the government secretly listens to every conversation we have?

            Only the ones we have when nobody else is around.

            And how could it be a secret if both you and I know about it?Alan Jones

          6. User avater
            CapnMac | Dec 18, 2003 01:42am | #21

            P.S. Do you thing the government secretly listens to every conversation we have?

            Yes, but we only record the ones where you use the following words:

            *********

            ***

            ***********

            ******* *********

            ****

            * ***

            *** *****

            skil

            Which is what I was told.  Or heard.  And can neither confirm nor deny.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          7. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 17, 2003 07:41pm | #11

            It is not the remote control. It is coming from the TV.

            I could be a couple of things.

            One is the high voltage sweep circuit in the TV. They operate at just above the hearing range. It used to be very common for you people to be able to hear this because of loose componets and cheap designs.

            These are sync'd to the TV signals. When you switch channels it loses it's sync and can drastically change frequency. That is probably what the dog is hearing.

            Also there might be some high frequency "white noise" from the speaker durring channel changes.

          8. caseyr | Dec 17, 2003 08:36pm | #12

            I think the horizontal deflection circuit on US standard TVs is 15.75 kHz, which is within the hearing range of some people - I could hear it before I started going deaf many years ago.  We used to have some very large old black and white TV monitors suspended from the ceiling in a lecture hall that I occasionally used.  When standing under those things, the scream could definitely be heard. 

          9. Ruby | Dec 17, 2003 08:49pm | #13

            Thanks for the answers.

            I guess that the dog was really hearing something, would come running from another room. Dogs don't lie, so I assumed there was a noise but didn't know what.

            We have two dimmers on some flood lights in the kitchen and living room and no one mentioned them humming. Must be certain brands that do that.

          10. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 17, 2003 09:17pm | #16

            You are right about the frequeny now that you mentioned it. I was think that it was about 17-18kHz, but couldn't remember.

            But computer monitors are all over the place. Mine is 91kHz. but booting up it goes through several different screens of different resolution and I can hear it at some stages.

    2. Novy | Dec 17, 2003 09:26pm | #17

      John,

       What would happen if you were to use something like a 5 K Variac in this type of situation ?On a hill by the harbour

      1. JohnSprung | Dec 18, 2003 12:08am | #20

        The variac would work just fine and be completely buzz free.  It's basically just a big autotransformer that gets tapped wherever you want for the output.  The sine wave coming out is if anything a little better than what went in, the inductance will smooth out transients a little.

        -- J.S.

        P.S. -- With the variac, be careful not to go into the step-up range, over 120 volts.  That would shorten lamp life considerably.

        Edited 12/17/2003 6:11:04 PM ET by JOHN_SPRUNG

        1. Novy | Dec 18, 2003 03:00am | #23

          John,

           Fun answer.......

           We should start a film industry solution page ........

           Do you realize how long it takes to beat the real world out of a good IA Carp ?

          RF

           I will qualify this post at a later date

          On a hill by the harbour

          Edited 12/17/2003 7:14:02 PM ET by NOVY_7

  4. Remodeler | Dec 17, 2003 08:56pm | #15

    I liked this thread.  flourescent lights and computer monitors drive me nuts.  I can't hear them per se, but it is irritating when they are turned on and I am in proximity.  The flicker of flourescents bother me too.  I like a lot of light in my work areas.

    remodeler

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