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On page 87 of the new issue (May 2000) a island type bar is shown. I am interested in how the required electrical circuits would be supplied for both the sink side and the side of the bar with the overhang and bar stool. I run into this problem quite often and have many conflicting requirements relayed to me by various code experts. The NEC addresses this issue, but I am fuzzy on whether a recep on both ends of the cabinet (although ugly)would satisfy the code. (1996 & 1999 NEC)
If anyone can provide advice I would appreciate it.
Replies
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... depends on distances: any countertop over 2 feet in width has
to have a GFCI
receptacle within 4 feet cord length (not through the sink!), then
add'l receptacles every 8 feet (2x4' cord). A single 20-amp circuit
should be enough for a sink island, no? I don't see any power
requirement for the overhang/stool portion, unless someone
decides it's a 'wall' ... the receptacle can NOT go in the
countertop surface (duh). Bad thing about one on the side is that
it places electrical cords within easy reach of children.
just an educated guess ... dang, i thought "at bar" meant this
was a legal Q ...
*Sides are not permitted in '99 NEC - must be above countertop but not more than 18" and flush is not permitted. This leaves tombstone style or other post mounted or pendant. (I'll bet this pc of code isn't ollowed to rigorously.) And any counter minimu 12" X 24" requires an outlet.
*Hmmph. Glad VA is still in 1995. :)Of course, I hear they don't even allow NM in Chicago.... talk about out-of-date....
*How do you guys come up with these answers? It ain't the NEC. Article 210-52(c)(2) of the '99 NEC, "Island Counter Spaces" in dwelling units:i "At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 24 in.(610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 in. (305 mm) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge." That's the end of it. On an island or peninsula, only one receptacle is required. By Article 210-52(c)(5)Exception , the receptacle may be installed on the side below the countertop.Always being happy to show off my one limited area of expertise, I remain yours truly, LEE
*Of course you're right. I was reading from the handbook and there are a lot of notes between the required locations and the exceptions. The exception does, however, have some restrictions: not more than 12" below countertop; only when there is now vertical surface or upper cabinet within 18" of the countertop; and not when/where the counter top overhangs it's base by more than 6".
*This change was heavily lobbied-for since the 1996 requirements with respect to islands were driving everyone crazy. You wouldn't believe the weird places outlets were put to satisfy the previous requirement.
*Couldn't outlets be placed inside the island? With a little access panel? Why do they make you place an outlet in an island?Pete
*Now Pete,You know perfectly well why. If there is no outlet there, people will run extension cords accross the floor to the outlets on the walls. Then they will think, "I might trip" so they'll drill holes into the basement and run the extension cord under the floor. Or they'll rig up God knows what and run the cord over their heads (through the attic?), and run the cord until they find an outlet that lacks GFCI. Then they will plug several different small appliances into the one cord and turn them all on at once with the water running in that nifty island sink.Rich Beckman
*That pretty much says it all!b Been there, done that, can't remember ...
*I see but I was thinking that in a house with ample counterspace for appliances and such with an island fitted with drawers and stools around it for eating on.....that's what my sister has.......I do not see the need for it there and was wondering if they would still make you put one in. I suppose someone has to protect us from ourselves.Pete
*Simple enough: idiot-proofing. Although I've been known to run extension cords across walking areas ... temporarily, no more than six months ... suppose you want to put the blender on the island to make drinks while to chat with your friends? Maybe they should just ban the extension cords and demand for nearby receptacles will come?
*I'm glad they changed the rule. Even with 4 outlets ( two on each end ) of my 4' X 6' kitchen island, I really did not meet the old requirement of an appliance being within 2 feet of an outlet. But with the 4 outlets the inspector didn't question anything. With an island this big all 4 sides become working sides. Two years ago a friend had a house built with a peninsula bar comming off of a counter running along wall. The electrician cut a hole in the cabinetry for the required outlet near the end of the peninsula. But, the builder had installed the 180 degrees wrong, and had to rotate the bar ( stool was in kitchen, but stool side was supposed to be on family room side as per plans ). End result is original outlet is now at the counter running along the wall ( where wall outlets above counter already existed) and electrician had to come back and cut new hole at new end of bar for outlet. I am agreed the outlet requirement is to eliminate the need for extension cords, and the short appliance cords are to prevent people from having the cords draped over the stove burners. Remember the outlets on your mother's stove? Try to find one now. Some were even timed through the clock so you could start your coffee perculator in the morning.Frank
*Ah, the good old days. Outlet on my mother's stove? You mean the stove we had hauled away last year from -our- house! You've been living the high life too long, Frank!How about pull-down cords, like those exhaust vacuums they have in some auto repair garages? Someone needs to design a clever pop-up receptacle for in-counter mounting that, say, would be sealed when retracted and only live when extended.
*How about requiring appliances to be 18v or 24v ? Then we could use little low-volt wires all over the place with a big old transformer somewhere in the cellar, and they could also run off a rechargeable battery.Lee
*Rockler has some interesting popups in their catalog. But the NEC is very specific about not having outlets pointed up, or subject to flooding, etc. I've done this with a 2-level counter, one height for eating w/stools (42") and one height for work (36"). The outlet goes in the face of the step down. Only good for multi-level islands, though, but they seem to be becoming more popular.b Been there, done that, can't remember ...
*Let's see, waffle iron at 1000 watts running on 24 volts. amps=watts/volts..... 1000/24=41.66 amps..... kinda large conductor requirment. And talk about large ugly receptacles and plug combinations.Andrew, I still have my stove with the outlet. I need to replace the outlet as the spring tension is very low now. Nothing like loose plug and high current appliances.....Frank
*A nice new house with WWII appliances?
*andrew:Not exactly, my house I still have in Richmond. The stove is mid 60's 30" GE that replaced the original 42" stove. My Hotpoint fridge is a '54 model. It was original to my neighbors house. Because stoves had outlets, there is no wall outlet serving that 24" of counter next to the sink.Frank
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The only electrical requirement at my bar is one outlet for the blender. Margaritas, anyone?
b Let's get drunk and sc***
b G
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Sounds like a rental special!
*If you're gonna quote Jimmy Buffet, let's do it right -- "Why don't we get drunk and sc***?" Parrot heads all over the world are apalled.I agree with you, though the outlet should be a GFCI, to avoid shocks when knocking over the blender after one too many margaritas. Use a battery powered blender if you're really safety conscious.
*But in order to rent it, I would have to remove my stuff and fix the tile in the bathroom and paint it and... It's going to be a long summer...and then it would look so good I'd be better off selling it to quickly recover my sweat equity before the IRS rule of 2 out of 5 takes place and it becomes capital gains.Frank
*I meant that the rentals i lived in always had the incredibly ancient inefficient appliances picked by our landlords who didn't pay the electric bill. We had avocado green or harvest gold long after the rest of the world had moved on.Certainly whether the island had Code circuitry was never an issue. (What island?) (Electrical in the kitchen -- you mean besides the extension cord from behind the fridge?)If you're coming up on 5 years, dump it without anything more than the superficial -- buyers never pay enough for sweat equity, and value their own at zero! Man, what a tax bonus.
*Frank, what is the 2 and 5 rule? I've never heard that term before.blue
*Blue:I said 2 out of 5 and it may be 3 out of 5, I cannot find the 1040 book right now...So don't quote me on specifics...With the new IRS rule of selling your primary residence and not wanting to pay capital gains tax on the gain, you can exclude something like $500,000 in profit if you have owned the house for at least 2 years and lived in it or you can have lived in it for 2 years out of the last 5 years. So if you move out of a house but still own it ( typically make it a rental) you have up to 3 years to sell it and still qualify for the tax exemption. And there are more lines to the rule that cover how much is exempt if you only owned it for a year, etc.Please consult your tax advisor for the correct wording of the rule!And who knows when this will change again...Frank
*Thanks Frank, I'll weigh in with tax knowledgable folks.anyone out there tax knowledgable?blue
*> And who knows when this will change again... As soon as taxpayers understand it.Rich Beckman
*Check out the excellent IRS site - http://www.irs.gov. Publication 513 <a href=http://www.irs.gov/forms_pubs/pubs/p523toc.htm>"Selling Your Home" the basic rules pretty clearly. Congress passed the new law less than a year ago and so there are few clarifying regulations and not many cases have gone through the courts.It's all about deferring capital gains tax. The old rules, such as the one that you didn't have to pay tax so long as you bought a more expensive home within 2 years, are gone. The deal now is that on sale of your primary residence (as defined by the IRS; oversimplified, you lived there 2 out of the 5 previous years), $250k gain is exempt, $500k if married filing jointly. Pretty sweet deal. The breaks are so big that you hardly have to keep receipts for capital improvements any more.You can claim the exemption only every two years, and there are other limitations. Mortgage interest is still deductible. A very important issue to consult a tax advisor on -- you might want to sell sooner or later depending on the tax implications. YMMV.As for WHY there should be an exemption when capital gains rates are already so low, I don't know.... But it is good for homebuilders!
*Here's a margarita mixer that doesn't need any 110 volt juice! http://www.cdepot.net/agracing/
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On page 87 of the new issue (May 2000) a island type bar is shown. I am interested in how the required electrical circuits would be supplied for both the sink side and the side of the bar with the overhang and bar stool. I run into this problem quite often and have many conflicting requirements relayed to me by various code experts. The NEC addresses this issue, but I am fuzzy on whether a recep on both ends of the cabinet (although ugly)would satisfy the code. (1996 & 1999 NEC)
If anyone can provide advice I would appreciate it.