Replies

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Aug 29, 2004 11:54pm | #1

   Maybe.  I've used a toner fairly often to trace wires behind drywall.  Doesn't work really awesome, but it helps.   A couple or 4 inches is about all it will do.  My toner has tabs where you can connect a handset.  Since I do telecom stuff I have the handset and it helps a little. 

2. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 30, 2004 02:14am | #2

   You could also add value to the job by suggesting you install new wire.  By the time you trace it all out and yank on it to see where it goes, or nick it with a shovel, you'll be ahead by running new wire.  You can present it as a higher quality job for not much more than messing around with used wire.  It would allow zoning, too.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Aug 30, 2004 02:59am | #3

   Every thing being equal that I a good idea.

   But in this case the home is for sale and acutally most of the stuff that I am fixing really don't need to be fixed for a sale. Except for the replacing the two tulip lights that are laying down now one would even know what was suppose to be there.

   And there is lots of other things that do and so far he has not moved on.

   I see several rot and water issues. They are far above my expertise to fix (but I would on my own home where I could monitor my fixes) and had a home inspector come and and assess the problems and he found a couple more and recommeded a couple of contractors. But so far no action on those areas.

   Now I did fix a number of things that did need fixing, a lot of interior lights that where out and plumbing that leaked or frozen.

   But I spend a lot of time fixing exterior house lighting that he forgot what switch(s) control what lights and which ones where on photocells. So I spent several hours just tracking that down and then more time fixing them.

3. 
   4Lorn1 | Aug 30, 2004 07:51am | #4

   IMHO, unless this low voltage setup is an extremely high end kit I have found that replacing the entire setup is cheaper, faster and a whole lot more satisfying to both the electrician and the HO.

   You can troubleshoot a few heads or a transformer but you soon hit the point of diminishing returns. Especially the low end units are subject to intermittent connections due to loose or corroded connections underground. The heads are also commonly so cheaply made that water, sunlight and normal wear, sometimes just attempting to replace the bulbs, makes them flaky and generally unreliable.

   My usual course of action, subject to the HO approval and a little persuasion, is to replace the entire array. A little coordination with a landscaper helps a lot. Best plan is to get the landscaper tp send out his man to remove the mulch. Then I rip out the old and install new. The landscaper then spreads new mulch. Without the much present the cable goes in quick and the mulch makes everything look nice once reinstalled.

   On ones I install I provide, and keep on file an as-built diagram. Including the make and model of the heads used is a good step. On high end jobs I buy an extra head or three and stuff these in the attic of crawl space. You would think you performed a miracle two years later after the HOs wife backed the cart over a head and the heads were no longer available. I get a spare out of the crawl space and the wife repeatedly kissed me. Dirt, sweat and all.

   As for tracking I use a - Progressive Electronics Model 508S. I can track in walls and about 3' underground with good accuracy. The accuracy goes up with experience. This is an older model and has been surpassed by more recent units but it has served me well. Interestingly enough I recently saw it for sale through a well known electrical equipment outlet.

   I don't know if a telephone toner would work. IMO the sort of repair that toning implies is seldom worth the trouble on low voltage lighting systems. If it was just one or two faults maybe but I have tried this and found that the faults are often manifold. I find one fault and repair it only to find out that there are two more in the same run.

   I have seen ten foot section violated every foot or so by shovel or rototiller. A tone generator, no matter how good short of a TDR, would find all the sections with damaged insulation. Sections that will go bad in time.

   My preference is for line voltage landscape lighting. It is a major project to install. The 12" GFI rule comes in handy once you get into the general area. I try to run long runs in conduit at 18" to give them protection. The line-voltage heads are also higher quality. You can work on them and they are, short of getting driven over, durable. They also tend to look better.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Aug 30, 2004 05:01pm | #5

   Thanks, all good ideas.

   But I might not have made the problem clear.

   My main problem is that I am not sure of where they all are suppose to be. I found a couple that the HO did not remember being their and he pointed out one that I would not have every found.

   But I suspect that there are more.

   I am not really trying to find breaks in the wires, but rather trace the wires to find where they go. I can do that by pulling them up, but them I have reset them.

   And most of the communications with the HO are via a 3rd party. When he showed me one that I did not know about it was only becaused I worked late that one day and I pulled into the driveway and blocked the garage door and he came home a little early.

   He wants we to make up a list of what all I have found.

   To give you an example. The house has a large foryer with open stair way to the 2nd floor which has has an open balcony over the foryer.

   In the foyer there is a hanging track with LV transformers on it with more extension hangers and the lamp heads are about 2ft below the track/transformers. I can get to the lamps with my 8ft ladder and possilbe the transformers with a 12. But to get to the ceiling where the connection are made would need scafolding or a vertical man lift.

   There are 3 3gange switch boxes in this area and 2 single ones.

   Now none of these worked and one bulb was missing. The HO does not remember which switch(s) controlled these.

   After replacing some other lights, and pulling switches out of the box I and ID the 4 switches and control SOMETHING and the feed and load end and they make sense the load end is nearest the track. And I had already pulled one of the bulbs to check the type (an unusal MR-16 with twist and lock connections) and it was good, but where all of the transformers bad? Possible, but usual. And the height made it difficult to try to put a meter on the track to see if it was getting power.

   I finally saw something strange. On one end of the track there was a cover that extended past the track a couple of inches. Looked even closer and under it was the wires all taped up.

   THERE WAS NO %$&!*@ TRACK ADAPTER!!!!!!!!

   That end of the track was next to the where the stairs hit the balcony and stand on 4ft ladder I was able to reach over and install one. My guess is that at one time someone moved something up the stairs and broke it off.

   This job is 90% detective work, only 10% repair. But I am sure that you have run into those.

   I think that what is really going on is that as long as I am doing stuff like this that the HO is thinking that he is getting closer to getting the house sold.

   But in reality NONE of the stuff that I have fixed will help sell it. Few people are going to see that the sink in the downstair bar has frozen faucetts or the outside lights don't work. At least not until they are getting ready to make an offer.