Replies

1. 
   DanH | Sep 22, 2006 07:21am | #1

   Your basic plan should work, and isn't all that dumb. In most parts of the country you should be able to use romex instead of conduit, though in a crawl some thought about rodents is appropriate.

   Undoubtedly, some specific areas will require opening the walls, crawling in the attic, etc, but at least you should be able to reach most wall outlets with your scheme.

   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 22, 2006 06:17pm | #4

   Thanks for the thumbs up.  I have been planning to do this job for almost a year now and I'm just starting to gear up. 

1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 22, 2006 10:09pm | #5

   Any more feedback? 

1. 
   PatchogPhil | Sep 26, 2006 06:00am | #26

   One school of thought is to put ceiling lights on a separate circuit from the outlets.  This way if the ceiling light circuit breaker pops for some reason you still have power in the room (for a plug in lamp),  and visa versa.

   You might even want to add a few extra outlets in each room.  Code says 12 feet apart maximum,  but sometimes having an extra outlet really helps when positioning your furniture.  Eliminates extension cords which could be a potential fire hazard.

    

1. 
   DanH | Sep 26, 2006 02:27pm | #27

   Yeah, the first change I'd make is to put outlets about 8 feet apart, vs 12, through most of the house, and even closer (or doubled up) in likely computer/home entertainment areas.
   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

2. 
   thinkerf | Sep 27, 2006 08:34pm | #28

   The ideas are great, and really I'm only looking at a little more elbow grease.  Anyone else with ideas?  What would you do to 'upgrade' a standard home's electrical system?

2. 
   renosteinke | Sep 22, 2006 04:29pm | #2

   Sounds like quite a project. Fortunately, you can do it in stages.

   Even so, you're going to open up some walls.

   The first thing I suggest is that you run a large pipe..even 2".... from the bottom of the panel into the crawl space. Once there, in a spot that's easy to get to, mount a large 'pull can.' I'm talking about something at least 12 x 12 x 6" deep. This box will make it much easier to get wires to the panel, without trying to drill a hole for every single little pipe.

   I like the idea of pipe for the wires, but I wouldn't do 100% pipe. What I might do is place a junction box close to every receptacle, and run Romex or MC (metal clad cable) from there to the box. Again, this is to allow your holes to be a bit off.

   I say you'll be making some holes in the walls, because the existing boxes are likely small. and not suitable for the new wiring method. Even if they are, you still need to mount the new connectors on them.
   For boxes, I recommend the steel ones that are about 4" square. They are available with brackets for mounting to studs, and are used together with "mud rings" (the part that actually goes through the drywall). I'm sure you'll appreciate the extra space for the wires.

   Later, you can follow a similar procedure with your lights.

1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 22, 2006 06:04pm | #3

   Thanks for the encouragement and suggestions.  I do like the idea that this project can be done in stages.  I plan on upgrading all the 15 amp breakers to 20 amps and then using 12 ga wire throughout the house.  Maybe if I stick with conduit for my longest runs (50 ft+-) I will use 10 ga wire to the junction boxes.  Can you suggest anything else that I might want to add/upgrade since I will be redoing the system?

   Ryan   

3. 
   hammer | Sep 23, 2006 01:52am | #6

   " plan on upgrading all the 15 amp breakers to 20 amps and then using 12 ga wire throughout the house.  Maybe if I stick with conduit for my longest runs (50 ft+-) I will use 10 ga wire to the junction boxes"

   The upgrade is needed but don't overkill. With the cost of copper the 10 and 12 guage is not necessary. I've pulled lots of wire and when 14 guage is fine it is much easier to work with and does not require larger boxes etc. A 50+ ft. run does not require a heavier weight wire.

   I would opt for more single 15 amp curcuits, than using 20 amp. runs. Remember a standard receptacle and switch is rated for 15 amp. Lamp runs should be 15 amp.

   You will need multiple 20 amp lines to kitchen and bath (12 gauge) but they are needed there.

   If possible use Romex. It can be stapled to the edge of a floor joist when in a crawlspace. 

1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 23, 2006 02:24am | #7

   Okay, that sounds good.  I think the bathrooms are both on the same 15 amp circuit, so I will get these both on an upgraded 20 amp breaker.  My runs from the panel wont be to long and I don't have any issues with rodents under the house so I guess stapling Romex up would be the easiest thing.  I'm thinking I'll add a subpanel in my garage and for that I'll probably run metal clad or conduit.  Thanks for the suggestions.

   Ryan   

1. 
   DanH | Sep 23, 2006 03:22am | #8

   Upgrading from 15 to 20 amp breakers isn't necessarily a good idea (and of course it should ONLY be done if the wire is upgraded to #12 or larger). It's best to have the smallest breaker on a circuit that will handle expected loads (regardless of wire size), and install more circuits rather than increasing the load on a single circuit.The smaller the breaker the more readily it will trip on a "fault". A 15 vs 20 amp breaker can make the difference between a breaker tripping vs an extension cord melting down and starting a fire.
   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

2. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 23, 2006 04:10am | #9

   "I would opt for more single 15 amp curcuits, than using 20 amp. runs. Remember a standard receptacle and switch is rated for 15 amp. Lamp runs should be 15 amp."That is not code.But as you mentioned pulling 14-2 and specially 14-3 when you are tyring to fish in new wires is hell of lot easier thatn #12.

1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 23, 2006 05:37am | #10

   Bill,

   Are you saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing to swap out all of my 15 amp breakers for 20 amps?  I definitly want to run all 12 ga wire in the event of needed future upgrades. 

   thanks

   Ryan

1. 
   mikeingp | Sep 23, 2006 04:13pm | #11

   If you don't do electrical work for a living, I think you'll find that 12 guage is just harder physically to work with, plus you have to be a little careful that you don't exceed the allowable number of conductors in a box. But if you want to put all your outlets on 20 amp circuits, it's your house. What's the point of owning your own house if you can't wire it the way you want? I'd put the lighting on 15 amp circuits myself though, because you can predict the maximum load exactly, and it's just easier to work with 14 guage wire.

   If you do run 12 guage everywhere, you should probably use 20 amp breakers (no, it's not required). But there's no sense confusing everybody down the road.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 23, 2006 04:56pm | #12

   What Mike said, below."Are you saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing to swap out all of my 15 amp breakers for 20 amps? I definitly want to run all 12 ga wire in the event of needed future upgrades."That might be the confusing.You aren't swaping breakers in existing circuits.You are running new circuits and then you match the breaker to the circuit.

3. 
   VinceR | Sep 27, 2006 09:55pm | #29

   I don't think the code permits stapling to the edge os rafters or joists.  As far as I know (knew), you have to drill through, or attach a ledger board and staple to that.

    

    

1. 
   hammer | Sep 27, 2006 10:32pm | #30

   It's my understanding it depends on the use of the area the wire is running in. The ledger board is used in exposed areas. Like open rafters of a grarage. Technically you should also install side rails (2X2) incase someone trys to store things there.

   A true crawl space is for utilities. Like finished attic runs have romex stapled to the trusses and ceiling joists. It would be no different in a crawl space.

1. 
   VinceR | Sep 28, 2006 12:00am | #31

   From Section 334.15 of 2005 NEC:

   (C) In Unfinished Basements. Where the cable is run at

   angles with joists in unfinished basements, it shall be permissible

   to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or

   three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the

   joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored

   holes in joists or on running boards.

   (But I will grant that the code is so difficult to read, that stapling to the edges of joists may be listed as OK somehwere else!)

1. 
   DanH | Sep 28, 2006 12:10am | #32

   The specific concern in unfinished basements is apparently that folks will hang stuff from the wires. Not a problem in a crawl space, usually.
   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

2. 
   hammer | Sep 28, 2006 12:39am | #33

   What is the NEC's definition of a basement?

   My point is: What are the storage possiblities of a 3' high dirt floored crawl space?  If a person was foolish enough to use it for storage whats to keep them from hanging items off a #14 wire regardless if it's stapled or side bored thru a joist.

4. 
   renosteinke | Sep 23, 2006 09:23pm | #13

   It is a common trade practice, practiced by those electricians who DO NOT make tract homes for a living, to use the #14 wire for only the smoke alarm circuit. Everything else gets #12, and a 20 amp breaker. No, the code doesn't even suggest this, it's just a practice.

   Code DOES specifically allow the use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits- as long as there is more than one receptacle.

   Here are the reasons:

   - For lighting circuits, you can have more lights on the same circuit;
   - For receptacle circuits, you have less voltage drop to the distant receptacles; and,
   - Again, for receptacle circuits, there are several common household appliances that can, all by themselves, "use up" a 15 amp circuit. These include hair dryers, large microwaves, bread machines, and room air conditioners.

   One thing you are NOT allowed to do is attach the receptacles to a 20 amp circuit with a #14 pigtail. This is specifically forbidden by code. A nice thing about this requirement is that it means you can't use those spring-loaded holes in the receptacle for quick wiring. I say "nice," because electricians universally have disdain for those connections, having frequently had to fix problems at that point.

   Lest I get too far off track, I will now start a new thread, where I outline MY idea of how a house should be wired.

1. 
   thinkerf | Sep 24, 2006 04:19am | #14

   any other insight?

   ryan

5. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Sep 24, 2006 07:28am | #15

   ok,im the lone ranger on this one.how come your upgrading? a 1950's house will have romex in it,2 wire no ground.[i swear it seems heavier than new 12g].should still be in good shape. is the main reason to get the saftey of a ground wire? walk around the house how many plugs on your cords have a ground?i think the only one in my house is the computer. if saftey is the issue ,how about 15amp gfi's being installed in the begininng of all circuits?you mention your bath is on 15amps.rewire them to 2 seperate 20 amp and your kitchen is already rewired,i think your in pretty good shape really. when your in the middle of a complete rewire and you have holes knocked  everywhere,you sometimes question your own sanity.i know i've been there a couple times!larry

   hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 24, 2006 07:37am | #16

   No, the guage is the same.But the insulation on the older wire is thicker, because it is not near as good. That is if it is still there.Also you will be real limited with light fixtures due to the limited temp rating of the insulation.

1. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Sep 24, 2006 07:53am | #17

   bill i hit pretty freqeuntly the wiring in a older house with romex [1950's] that the wiring at the lights are pretty much toasted.what is a good way to fix this? what i have done is to clean the wire up and put about 3 layers of heat shrink around the wire. seems if you use tape ,it just falls off after a few years.from that point i try to use a light that gets the bulbs away from  the box,so when they screw 100watt bulbs into a 60 watt rated fixture at least the heat is away from wiring. let me know how you handle this situation.thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 24, 2006 07:57am | #18

   That is probably the best.Unless you have acess through the attic then install a j-box about 18" away and run NM-B to the ceiling box. Then you don't need to worry about any fixture with "legal" bulbs.

1. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Sep 24, 2006 08:01am | #19

   thanks,that was the only other thing i could think of,and crawling in the attic isn't reallymy idea of a good time lol .larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

2. 
   onder | Sep 24, 2006 08:20pm | #20

   I was in an appx. 1965 house recently and the romex
   12 had a much smaller ground wire than 12. It only
   ran one garage light so I didnt really worry about
   it but I think you'd worry if the whole house was
   protected by such a tiny little bond.
   New 12 is much smaller in outside size which is
   nice but it also seems to me to be less mechanically
   tough as older stuff. Maybe it cannot deal with the
   heat but you have to be somewhat more careful in
   installing.

2. 
   thinkerf | Sep 26, 2006 12:27am | #22

   If I "correctly" upgrade the electrical in the house my thought was that I'm upgrading the value of the house itself.  I know I'm not talking thousands of dollars but wouldn't you feel better buying a house with a modern electrical system done correctly?  I also know I will be cutting a few holes in the walls but my drywalling skills are such that you wouldn't know the wall ever had a hole in it.  I just don't want the patching to take as long as the re-wire.  I hadn't thought about just adding some GFCI breakers.  It definitly would be easier.  But then again a winter project will give me something to do. 

   Ryan  

1. 
   DanH | Sep 26, 2006 01:09am | #23

   Of course, if you're considering resale value, you're generally going to find that (with some justification), a DIY rewire job is not counted as "rewired" in the same sense as a pro job.
   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

2. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Sep 26, 2006 05:34am | #25

   if you tackle this project,i would recommend you get a 3 pc fiberglass fishing tool,i think mine is grenlee.they are great for rewiring,you will also need a fish tape,but i found being able to "shove through insulation" made the fiberglass rod worth it's weight in gold. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

6. 
   Dave45 | Sep 24, 2006 09:02pm | #21

   Sounds like a good plan and I would offer a couple of suggestions.

   • Take the time to map your existing electrical so you know what's being fed by each breaker.  I like to do this on a floor plan that shows all the switches, receptacles, etc.
   • Once that's done, use the plan to map out how you want the new wiring to be laid out.  If you have a Home Depot near you, they have a book (Code Check?) that should answer most of your code questions.  I think it costs around $40
   • If you have decent attic access, consider running the new wiring in the attic rather than under the house.  I usually find it easier to find a wall top plate than to find the bottom plate.  The old wiring should also help find things, too.
   • Be lavish on your new wiring system.  Plan for some outside receptacles, power for ceiling fans, etc.  Even if you don't do it all right now, you can leave yourself set up for later.

   Since you're in Sacramento, this would be a great winter project.  I'm in San Jose and really try to avoid attic work in the summer.  There's no way I would go into a Sacramento attic between April and November - lol.

7. 
   renosteinke | Sep 26, 2006 03:29am | #24

   Another detail has just been pointed out to me:

   Sure, the NEC allows for using a GFCI breaker, then installing three-prong receptacles. From a safety standpoint, you're covered. BUT....

   These days we use lots of electronic stuff. Some of it -timers, motion sensors, dimmers- actually need a ground wire to operate properly. Otherwise, many surge suppressors -the things we rely upon to protect our computers- require a ground to function.

   So, shortcuts aside, running a proper ground is the best solution.