FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Electrician sawzalls floor joist/header

jesse | Posted in General Discussion on April 17, 2008 10:54am

So there I am at my friend’s house, setting tile and minding my own business (edit: I have done the majority of the work on a medium size remodel at the house in question, am not the GC). The electricians were there doing undercabinet lighting for the new cabinets, and also redoing a few fixtures and putting in a floor outlet in the maple floor.

As I was walking outside, I heard a Sawzall in the crawlspace. I knew right away something was off…so I went and looked at his 3″ hole for the floor outlet – right smack dab in the middle of the joist. I went below and told him to stop, but he had already cut through 3/4 of the joist, and to make it worse, another joist was headered off of that one.

Poor showing…his excuse was that there was no way to fix the maple floor because it was t & g. Considering I installed the floor two months ago and there was a whole box of it in the garage (prefinished, too), all I could do was shake my head.

He was pretty young, in his 20s (but so am I). I tried to be nice, but told the guy he should NEVER cut floor joists. Anyways, it will probably only cost them a couple hundred bucks, I can hanger a new joist off of a carrying beam down there.

Anyone think he would have said anything if I wasn’t there to notice?


Edited 4/17/2008 8:50 pm ET by jesse

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. User avater
    Matt | Apr 18, 2008 01:33am | #1

    I'm confused.  Are you the builder?

    1. jesse | Apr 18, 2008 02:34am | #3

      The remodeler, yeah. But the owners are acting as the GC. But since they are my best friends, I figured I should step in and do something...especially since I will be the guy to fix it.

      1. sarison | Apr 18, 2008 04:44am | #7

        I know that you are not the GC, however you have taken on the role.  I find that meeting with the subs and discussing what needs to be done with all areas of the project alleviates babysitting issues in the future.  I met w/ the plumber today on the job I'm on know and I asked him if he needed anything so that he didn't have to compromise my work.  He told me that he wished everyone was as easy.

        Dustin

         

        1. jesse | Apr 18, 2008 05:01am | #8

          Yeah, well, in this case, the cabinet company referred the electricians to wire the undercabinet lights, I didn't even know the homeowners talked to them about the floor outlets. It's really not my deal, until someone screws up. /rolling eyesI'm just glad I was there and happened to be walking through the living room instead of holed up in the bathroom with my ipod cranked, doing the most complex tile shower I've ever attempted.

          1. User avater
            maddog3 | Apr 18, 2008 05:58am | #9

            So, your friends are the GC ?
            and you didn't know they talked to him ?I always find it humorous that its the ..........( fill in the blank) fault and not theirs..

            did they even bother to qualify this twenty-something before he started work on something he wasn't referred to dobecause it sounds like this guy is good at hanging cabinet lights, ........ and that's allbut you managed to save the day and t it's always somebodys fault except the "GC " ... what are their qualifications , that they let some one just start cutting holes in the floor.

            .

            .. . . . . . . .

          2. jesse | Apr 18, 2008 06:39am | #10

            I fail to see your point. Two licensed electricians in two fancy vans with their name on the side should be able to install an outlet without compromising the structural integrity of a house.

          3. fingersandtoes | Apr 18, 2008 08:02am | #11

            I don't have to follow my electrician or plumber around making sure they don't wreck stuff. If I did they wouldn't be my subs. That the guy is a complete meathead couldn't have been anticipated. It's like giving your keys to the valet parking attendant and watching him drive straight into a tree.

            Edited 4/18/2008 1:02 am ET by fingersandtoes

          4. User avater
            maddog3 | Apr 18, 2008 01:48pm | #12

            read it again, your friends are just as incompetentand I have never seen a van install anything.

            .

            .. . . . . . . .

          5. Piffin | Apr 18, 2008 01:57pm | #13

            His point is that when DIY HOs try to function as GCs without knowing what they are doing, this kind of screw-up is common and they are at least as responsible for it as the young unsupervised electricican is. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. jesse | Apr 18, 2008 04:22pm | #15

            Well, I disagree. If the electrician would have stopped after discovering the joist, no big deal. I could have easily patched the floor.But when he cut the floor joist, he failed miserably. Do you really think the owners bear responsibility? Electricians work for homeowners all the time. I told the homeowners I would fix it and they can back bill the electrical contractor. Is that wrong?

          7. stevent1 | Apr 18, 2008 04:36pm | #16

            Jesse,I think you handled it well. Plumbers and electricians should be give the IRC notching and boring chart and pay attention to the part about how far in from the ends.How bout some pics of the intricate tile work.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood

          8. jesse | Apr 18, 2008 05:16pm | #17

            We aren't talking notching, he cut a 3" piece out of the middle of the joist. The whole thing...it's now two shorter joists. I'll put up some pics in a few days.

          9. Piffin | Apr 18, 2008 11:40pm | #18

            There is not a thing wrong with what you did. I'd have done about the same, and the sparky should be backbilled.The thing that is wrong is when HOs try to GC and expect somebody else to supervise for them. Being a GC is a skilled job that demands time and attention instead of letting just anybody with a sign on the van go in and start hacking away 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          10. Schelling | Apr 19, 2008 04:32am | #21

            The thing that is wrong is when HOs try to GC and expect somebody else to supervise for them.

            We don't really know that this is the case. I know that my subs have done some bonehead things in the past. And I have had to deal with it. Rarely does something of this nature involve backbilling the sub. I just fix it and put them in debt to me. This pays off doubly when I need something done in a hurry.

            In Jesse's case, his friends will still have to suffer the consequences. They will have to hire him to fix the mess and have to come to an agreement with the electrician over the cost.  This is something that we do without giving it a second thought but it is one of the reasons we earn out money.  They will be earning the money they saved.

            If his friends thought that somebody else was going to supervise for them, they got what they paid for.

            Edited 4/18/2008 9:35 pm ET by Schelling

          11. Biff_Loman | Apr 19, 2008 01:03am | #19

            As a former project manager (and also in my 20s):Back-charging the electrician is the appropriate action. He frakked up, period.Unless I'm completely misinformed - I'm not an electrician - there is no excuse for the electrician not to know that what he did is a no-no. Is he actually a journeyman? My understanding is that perforating a joist incorrectly can result in a failed inspection. All kinds of things violate code, like drilling a hole above or below another one. Bisecting a joist is, in comparison, incomprehensible.I agree 100% with the 'stuck on stupid' observation, though. I've got a few chestnuts along those lines.

          12. User avater
            maddog3 | Apr 19, 2008 03:24am | #20

            it's their house !
            they should have a grasp of what is under the floor !
            they should have located the outlet before anyone started cutting !
            they are the GC, weren't they on the job ? I agree the electrician should be back charged, just don't lay all the blame on him even if he is boneheaded perhaps he cut the opening exactly where the GC wanted it .....I have had those discussions too.

            .

            .. . . . . . . .

    2. User avater
      BarryE | Apr 18, 2008 04:37am | #6

      I'm confused, if you're not the builder you should ignore major hack work?

      Barry E-Remodeler

       

      1. User avater
        Matt | Apr 18, 2008 02:04pm | #14

        No - he should inform the builder of the problem.  Then the builder resolves the problem with the involved sub(s) and whatever other resources are required.  Each sub works for the GC - I assume.  I'm always very grateful when one of my subs inform me of a problem - weather it involves their trade or not since it speaks to their integrity, but since I inspect all my subs work it generally isn't necessary although anyone can miss something.  Sounds like he is doing the builders job for him, for free.  It's a good thing since he says they are best friends and it sounds like a DIY GC.  

        Almost seems like the GC would have located the exact location for a floor outlet - my electrician requires it.  They charge $135 for a floor outlet - and it's not just because those brass floor boxes are expensive.  I'm guessing it's because of the liability involved.

  2. woodway | Apr 18, 2008 02:33am | #2

    I've noticed that, at times, pay scale is inversely related to intelligence quotient. Electricians and plumbers, especially the ones under 30 yrs of age, seem to have the market cornered when it comes to out and out stupidity. Once they get a little older, something happens and the majority gain some awareness but it's a difficult climb with considerable resistance, others remain doomed to a life of permanent disability.

    Mind you, I don't want to imply that all plumbers and electricians are afflicted with this, it just seems that the incidence of "stuck on stupid" hits them more then the other trades. One of my best friends is an electrician but to date, there are no plumbers in the list.

    1. McPlumb | Apr 18, 2008 04:09am | #4

      There are lots of messes like that out there. Day before yesterday I seen a place where two floor joist were cut up half way from the bottom, about 10 inches from the wall, then it looked like they just smacked it with a hammer and split it out of the way.

      Sad part was if they would have thought about it the drain realy didn't have to go through there.

      My father and both of my grandfathers were carpenters, so I had an understanding of what the wood was there for, before I became a plumber.

  3. barmil | Apr 18, 2008 04:35am | #5

    This has always baffled me, that electricians and plumbers, especially plumbers, have no concept of how what they're doing will affect later events. I hired a plumber to run a gas line from my basement to the kitchen, and he did it so that the stove has to now be two inches from the wall in order to clear his installation. Afterward I saw that he could have put it closer to the wall, but it wouldn't have been as convenient for him to have done so from below. I don't think he cared at the time, and he never asked me about it. I think that all electricians and plumbers should have structural concepts as part of their training and certifications. As hard as it is to get quality into these trades, given the decreasing numbers entering them, cross training should be at least a considertion. 

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Tools and Gear for the Moms Who Get it Done

From work boots to power tools, these favorite picks make perfect gifts for moms and women who build.

Featured Video

Video: Build a Fireplace, Brick by Brick

Watch mason Mike Mehaffey construct a traditional-style fireplace that burns well and meets current building codes.

Related Stories

  • Podcast Episode 684: Masonry Heaters, Whole-House Ventilation, and Porch Flooring
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Repairing an Old Home While Maintaining Its Integrity
  • Tools and Gear for the Moms Who Get it Done
  • An Easier Method for Mitered Head Casings

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2024
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers
  • Issue 327 - November 2024
    • Repairing Damaged Walls and Ceilings
    • Plumbing Protection
    • Talking Shop

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 81%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data