Hi! I’m a poster over on Cooks Talk, and my DH & I have run into a situation that baffles us, and I thought you might be able to help. We got a wonderful new outdoor spa. We were a little naive in thinking the co. that sold it to us would install it. They just deliver, then we had to call in an electrician to hook it up. Our code requires a GFI. The sales company gave us the name of three electricians. We made an appointment with one, who came over and hooked the spa up on November 16th.
The problem: He said the GFI hadn’t come in, and he would receive it in a few days, and come and finish the job. We have not heard from him since. I have left several messages on his phone answering device, and he has not returned any call. Now it’s been over two months. I asked the referring co. about it. They claim to have also left him at least 2 messages for me, and have not heard either.
The question: We called a new contractor, because we are concerned about the safety of using the spa. He would charge us more to come out and just put the GFI in, than the first one charged for the whole job. The first one was not paid. So, how long do we have to wait for him? If I have someone come out and finish, and I pay the new guy, do I have the right not to pay the first guy, since he would end up costing us double due to his neglect of us? Even though he did do some work? I am baffled, and wondering if he is okay. He’s just dropped away!
Next question: My DH thinks he can just go and buy a GFI and install it himself. Are there problems with this? I would love to know what you think. Thanks!
Edited 2/1/2003 11:19:10 PM ET by mangia
Replies
Depending on the spa and your location, you might need a GFI receptacle (outlet) or, more likely, a GFI circuit breaker which would go in the main electrical panel and feed the circuit that the spa is on.
It's is usually fairly simple, IF there is available space in the box for the GFI. (Presumably the electrician did install a new breaker for the spa and you'd be replacing that.)
Most books on home repair and maintenance will show you how to install (or change) a circuit breaker
Be sure to be very careful, and follow the instructions to the letter.
Be sure to get a GFI breaker, not an AFI breaker (they're new, and do something different.)
There is a degree of danger in electrical work - undertake it at your own risk. Obsessive compulsive inclinations are a good trait in electricians. Don't screw around with it if your going to "wing it."
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
The question: We called a new contractor, because we are concerned about the safety of using the spa. He would charge us more to come out and just put the GFI in, than the first one charged for the whole job. The first one was not paid. So, how long do we have to wait for him? If I have someone come out and finish, and I pay the new guy, do I have the right not to pay the first guy, since he would end up costing us double due to his neglect of us? Even though he did do some work? I am baffled, and wondering if he is okay. He's just dropped away!
Next question: My DH thinks he can just go and buy a GFI and install it himself. Are there problems with this? I would love to know what you think. Thanks!
A--It doesn't matter what the first guy charged you to do the job, because he didn't do the job. His quote is as worthless to you as his service has been.
B--Anyone who asks if he should attempt a hazardous task on his own... shouldn't. Particularly residential wiring.
C--Hire a professional to install your spa, and then enjoy your spa.
Bob
B--Anyone who asks if he should attempt a hazardous task on his own... shouldn't. Particularly residential wiring.
I tend to be pretty conservative on DIY electrical myself, having seen my share of butchered DIY work, but this one probably doesn't take all that much to learn.
Are you also a home inspector? Or a "real" inspector?_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
If you wanted to deal with this first guy in a more serious way, write him a letter stating that you need to have the work completed and if he doesn't respond in, say, 10 days, that you will consider your contract with him void and will hire someone else.
It would be a wake-up call to him and he could decide to respond or not. It would also look good if you ever ended up in small claims court.
This would be assuming that you still would want him to complete the job. If you don't want him back, then maybe don't contact him and take your chances that it won't create a problem for you later.
Ed
Send the letter as suggested and register it to pretty much eliminate any legal recourse he might have and hope he does not come back.
I have been a master electrician for 30 years before General contracting. I would be a little uneasy about immersing myself in a bath of free ions that I had wired myself and I have wired many. A fault in a situation such as this is probably second only to the electric chair for electrocution.
It's not just the GFCI, it's the grounding,bonding,integrity of connections etc.
Don't just try to find someone . Find the best !
I appreciate all this input. I had actually thought of doing the letter w/ a deadline, but when I called the spa place to get his address, they said his card only showed a phone number and an e-mail address. Would an e-mail hold up the same as a letter?
I would really prefer that he finish it, but I don't know what gives. The fact that he did work makes me think he would want to get paid. His lack of follow up makes me think maybe he has a real good reason. Don't we all want our money for our work? OTOH, he may be loaded up w/ real high paying jobs and just can't be bothered w/ this one. A phone call back would be nice though. And he didn't strike me as the kind of guy who would just blow someone off. He was pleasant, seemed very competent, and was recommended by the people from whom we just bought an $8000. item! How, beyond a recommendation do we find someone good?
We started w/ our own yellow pages, and the bids were everywhere from $180. by a guy on the phone who wouldn't even come look at the job, to $1500 from someone who came out! We thought that was so outrageous, we decided to go w/ the store's recommended peo. as a hedge against either rip off or incompetence. His bid was $280.
As far as my husband's expertise, many years ago in his prior career he was a machinist, so he's used to doing things to the nth detail. He prefers to do most stuff around the house himself, and many years ago, did install extra breakers and outlets in our garage. He has a book on advanced wiring. It just all makes me nervous. I'd prefer to hire an electrician, (who will charge $150. just to come out, and another $150. just to install the GFI which he the new bidder says is a 10 minute job) but not pay twice for only getting one complete installation. Some of your responses are scaring me into doing it though. LOL
Edited 2/2/2003 1:23:16 PM ET by mangia
"He prefers to do most stuff around the house himself, and many years ago, did install extra breakers and outlets in our garage"
Trust your husband, I'm sure I would after talking to him for 5 minutes - he apparently trusts you to cook, and isn't that an advanced form of chemistry?
Thanks to all of you for your very helpful replies. I guess we've been lucky up til now. We had a prior spa for 14 years, and it never had the GFI. Yikes! Part of our dilemma was all the conflicting information we were receiving, and trying to determine 1.) who is competent, and 2.) what is a fair price. We had been told by the spa guys to expect from $200-$300. to hook the spa up and in the real world we got everything from $180. to $1500. Today we went and talked to the electrical consultant at our local, long established hardware store. He showed us lots of stuff and explained it all very well, and in the process, we found out our old spa had gone through a quick disconnect box (the one on the outside wall visible from the spa) designed for an air conditioner, not a spa. Yikes again!
We got two names from him of well established local electricians. (DH has worked with 120, but not 220, and feels better about this since electrocution may be invloved LOL!). We will e-mail the first guy, and IF he finishes it , we will pull permits ourselves so it can be inspected to make sure he knew what he was doing. If not, we go with one of the new guys. (On the off chance that DH decides to do it himself, he would still want to get a permit and inspection) THANKS so MUCH!!!
Edited 2/5/2003 11:47:41 PM ET by mangia
Yikes! We've been using the spa since November! It has a wired in radio/cd player too. Does that add to taking our chances?
Is this guy licensed? If he pulled the permit for the work, the town would want a license number, and possibly insurance info. At least, in my town that's how it is. If he's licensed (and he shouldn't be selling himself as an electrician if he isn't), go to the State to find his last known address. This is public information, just like licensed engineers, architects, doctors, massage therapists, etc. Send a registered letter with a reasonable deadline explaining that after the waiting period, you will pay another contractor to review, correct, and finish the work. The cost of that work will come off his invoice. That way, you won't be paying twice for the same work.
I also find it hard to believe a real electrician would leave that tub usable (powered), but sans GFI. I'd have expected he'd wire it, panel included, but install no breaker until he had the right one, especially since it was supposed to be only a couple of days. I agree with the other poster; music system, lights, heat, pump, water, people, and no GFCI. I'd stay out of it 'till it's done. Be seeing you...
Your "electrician" raised a red flag due to his lack of professionalism. I therefore question his workmanship.
It takes 5 ma(milliamps) to upset your ticker. The water in your spa probably contains chlorine , bromine etc. as a cleaner. These halogens have a free electron they readily give up thus making them an excellent oxidizer for cleaning up the nasties but also making the water an excellent conductor.
You can stand barefoot on your hardwood floor and touch a live conductor and not feel a tickle (don't-you might be standing on a nail head you can't see that is grounded). Point is, dry wood is an insulator while your spa water is a conductor.
The National Electric Code is very exacting on wiring methods for spas, hydro-tubs, swimming pools etc. and there are no short-cuts. Your GFCI is just one of many things that need to be done properly to insure your spa is indeed safe. These methods were employed long before GFCI's, and spas were safe. The GFCI isn't the complete picture.
Turn the power off and replace a plug if you are a DIYer. Call a very qualified professional to connect your spa and ask him to inspect the complete installation!
Then relax and enjoy your spa.
this guy is a dope if he left you unprotected without a gfi breaker. i dont know how someone can do a complete proper job for 200 bucks. my cost for a basic simple job on materials alone is 250. he must work for free?. well you get what you pay for. i guarentee the job is not filed or goin to be inspected. pay an electrician to finish the job right. get it inspected to protect yourself. geeze the 50 amp gfi is 100 bucks alone. you will pay 300 more to get the job done right ,and pay the other schmuck if you want, and still get a good price on the install., just think of someone getting killed in your tub to save a few bucks. its not worth the law suits.