Replies

1. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 04:37am | #1

   Your dog is conspiring against you.

   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
2. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 04:41am | #2

   (I assume your drain plumbing is plastic?)

   Do you have to be standing in the shower to feel this sensation, or will it happen if you're outside and you reach in while the shower is running?

   It's vaguely possible that you're experiencing static electricity from the flowing water, though it seems unlikely.

   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
3. 
   renosteinke | Oct 30, 2009 04:48am | #3

   It looks like you have an idea where the problem lies. Now, you have to verify it.

   First rule: Do not tolerate ANY shocks or tingles from the plumbing. There's something broke, and it needs fixing- NOW.

   As a quick test, put your well pump on a gfci ... does the gfci trip when the pump runs?  If so, you need a new pump. Don't try to fix it. If the gfci does not trip, your problem is elsewhere ... come back here and we'll get systematic.

   You can PM me during the day, and I'll try to help.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 10/29/2009 9:49 pm ET by renosteinke

1. 
   brucet9 | Oct 31, 2009 03:33am | #21

   When we had a pump feeding domestic water, there was a pressure tank and the pump only started when pressure dropped below a certain value and shut off when it reached its upper limit.Since OP's electric tingle stops immediately when water is shut off and starts immediately when turned back on, doesn't the pump seem an unlikely cause of the problem?BruceT

1. 
   renosteinke | Oct 31, 2009 04:34am | #22

   That is why I told him to give it ONE try, then to contact me. After the first guess, it's time to stopp guessing and get systematic.

   So far, I have not heard from him.

2. 
   DanH | Oct 31, 2009 05:27am | #23

   Not if the electricity is coming through the water out of the shower head.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

1. 
   brucet9 | Oct 31, 2009 11:20pm | #30

   Why would it do that? Electricity flows through the route of least resistance, so since copper pipes connect directly to the shower valve where he is feeling the electricity, he should feel it whether water is flowing or not. Tap water, by the way, is a very poor conductor of electricity.
   BruceT

1. 
   DanH | Nov 01, 2009 12:15am | #33

   As you said, water is a very poor conductor. So MOST electricity flows through the path of least resistance, while some flows through the path of higher resistance -- it's not all or nothing.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

2. 
   gfretwell | Nov 01, 2009 02:59am | #35

   "Electricity flows through the route of least resistance"Not true at all. Electricity flows through ALL paths."so since copper pipes connect directly to the shower valve where he is feeling the electricity, he should feel it whether water is flowing or not."We still don't know if these pipes are bonded to the ground electrode system do we? (did I miss that?)"Tap water, by the way, is a very poor conductor of electricity."Again, not always true, particularly if this "tap" comes from a well.
   My well water is very conductive due to about 800 ppm salt and other minerals. (TDS)

3. 
   Scott | Nov 01, 2009 06:27am | #37

   >>>Not true at all. Electricity flows through ALL paths.>>>Again, not always true, particularly if this "tap" comes from a well.Yeah. Both of these points make me think back to my original post, wondering if the EGC for this house is a well casing.Scott.

4. 
   brucet9 | Nov 01, 2009 09:03am | #38

   Tap water is a weak conductor of electricity.Drinking water normally ranges from a billion times to a 100 billion times less conductive than copper. Even sea water, at 35 parts per thousand of salinity (43 times more dissolved solids than your water), is about 12 million times less conductive than copper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivityWhat I meant by my comment about copper pipes connected to the shower valve was that any charge on the water itself would already have been in contact with the shower valve, so why would it flow instead through a stream of water up the riser, out of the shower head, then across OP's skin and back to the shower valve again?BruceT

5. 
   renosteinke | Nov 01, 2009 04:41pm | #39

   Bruce ...nothing personal, but you can take that textbook reference and peddle it somewhere else. Such information is misleading, incomplete, and will get someone killed.

   Just why do you think GFCI's are primarily used to address increased hazards brought about by water? Do you think the 30 years of debate over them was nothing but a mass delusion?

   First off, we have no way  to tell what is actually coming out of anyone's pipes. It doesn't take very much contamination to change 'insulating' water to marvelously conductive water.

   Second ... what happens once the water leaves the pipe? Don't you think that maybe the stuff the water picks up will alter it's conductivity? Everything from the sweat on your skin to the soap scum on the walls?

   Forget the 'textbook.' The only way to address the issue is to treat all waset as if it were 'liquid copper.'

   You're not the only 'sinner' on this thread. There are far too many posts trying to debate various theoretical details ... and they're all missint the point. The point is, there IS electricity present, so it has to come from somewhere. The first step is to find out where it's coming from .... the next step is finding the 'leak.'

   It's one thing to sit in the woodshed and debate whether Obama is really Irish or not - I mean, your armchair pedantics will do no worse than bore some one. On this thread, it's going to get someone killed.  That's not an idle fear, either; there's a constant stream of deaths every year in circumstances more marginal than these.

6. 
   brucet9 | Nov 02, 2009 01:27am | #43

   I don't think I said one thing to suggest that the OP should not search for the source of electric charge. Of course he should, and you laid out a logical series of steps to find it.I just pointed out that it made no sense to me that OP's finger could be completing a circuit where current would flow through the shower stream, then across his body to the shower valve, because that "charged" water was flowing through that same shower valve and a copper riser to get to the shower head in the first place. And, yes, electricity has been conducted through water with enough current to injure or kill, but not when there was a million times better better conductor available as would be the case in the OP's shower. I think Bill Hartmann's suggestion is the more likely explanation, which would mean that the pipes are charged and not properly bonded. BruceT

7. 
   h12721 | Nov 02, 2009 02:48am | #44

   " Every one has to take a shower at least once a Year if he needs it or not!" Hi guys, I took my yearly shower last night and all was fine. I tried to find the tingle spot but to no avail. I measured again and there is no change. just a few millivolts on the meter.
   The spot on my finger is not working. It must have been splinter or some skin removed and grow back.To Billhartman: 126052.42 in reply to 126052.32
   My suspicious are that the water FLOWING is not what is delivering the shock. The floor of the shower is tile on a concrete slab, IIRC.

   No, the floor is molded fiberglass with a lip of four Inches.. Not on concrete, sitting on wooden joists.
   Possibly the wet shower floor is conductive enough to ground-ground (forgetting the sewer/drain which is probably plastic anyway).
   I gather that this is a barely perceptible tingle so we might be talking about a few 10's of micro amps.
   "That is correct" and if you grabbed the valve with a full hand "nothing happened" .To Scott: 126052.38 in reply to 126052.36 .
   Yeah. Both of these points make me think back to my original post, wondering if the EGC for this house is a well casing.No Scott, the well casing is not grounded at all. I checked just an hour ago.
   I have 220 VAC coming from the main breaker, "the whole house is Romex " going to a switch close by the Water Tank ,where the Well piping comes in. That switch cuts off the well pump. That switch cover ( metal) measures Zero Ohms against the copper piping.
   From that switch , two wires a black and a white going to the pump pressure switch relay.
   Only the two wires no blank or bare ground wires. Again, only the two wires ( black and white ) leaving the relay, "no blank copper ground is in that box. From that box leaves a short BX cable is going to a plastic conduit. . From there with ft under ground to the well is 40 ft .in plastic. So from the switch to the pump no ground. The main panel is about 50 ft. on the opposite side of the house in the garage.
   All the piping in the house is copper except all the drain piping. That is it.
   126052.33 in reply to 126052.1 126052.33 in reply to 126052.1
   This sounds pretty weird. Is there anyone else in the house that can reproduce the symptom?No Scott, my wife can not feel a thing she calls me nuts. curley: 126052.37 in reply to 126052.1 Is there any chance that you have a nice life insurance policy and you and your wife arn't getting along????????No curley, no life insurance, I am to old for that (76) and married for forty eight and then some.

   Junkhound: 126052.29 in reply to 126052.25
   25 mV, 25 uA, Simpson 260.
   a.assume you had the simpson on the 1.5 V scale? Scale makes a big difference in meter loading. BTW, I got a meter like that for Christmas, think it was in 1958? Big $$ then.
   b. current, how connected - one lead to you with water running, other to faucet?, or other connection. Makes a big difference. Not enough data to analyze correctly, you might be 71 YO, but no idea if you know how to hook up a meter (no disrespect intended) - If you just left it connected and switched the scale to uA, totally different story for analysis.

   Junkhound: Have been a Electronic technician for 36 Years, no problem with the meter scales. But thanks for asking. renosteinke:
   This is also one of the classic "bad GFI" situations, where the GFI is actually doing it's job, protecting you from a real hazard. renosteinke: How would the GFI work if there is no ground to the pump? Would the pump by itself be the ground?
   Also it is pretty tuff to take a shower and run in your Birthday suit to the other side of the house and flip the breakers, Ha Ha.
   Please read also the post to Scott with the 2 Wires to the pump
   Hey Guy thanks for all the suggestion and the Help.
   Hilmar

8. 
   renosteinke | Nov 02, 2009 02:53am | #45

   One of the joys of electricity is that you really can't see which way it's flowing through your finger.

   In the last such service call I had, the source of the current turned out to be a lightweight extension cord that was artfully hidden under the bath rug. That is, 'you' were the one supplying the power to the plumbing, and not the other way around.

   Sorry for snapping at you, and thank you for your gracious reply. I do weary of some of the things I've had folks tell me .... 'it's not the volts, it's the current' .... 'ordinary 110 won't kill you' ..... 'just get rid of the GFI' ... etc. I suppose I've been particularly strident since the day a man working an arm's length from me got electrocuted. Something like that does make an impression.

9. 
   brucet9 | Nov 02, 2009 03:11am | #46

   Thanks for the follow up and no need to apologize. I don't think I made my points very clear.That must have been quite an "aha" moment when you got the idea to check under the rug. Come to think of it, you might have been able to make an interesting twist on the old "pull my finger" gag with that setup. :)BruceT

10. 
    rasconc | Nov 02, 2009 03:28am | #47

    I have a couple of questions.  I did not see any mention of the cable feeding the pump, just many mentions that he may have to replace the pump.  Could that not be a possibility?  My plumber installed my 185' deep one and taped the he** out of the cable to pump connection.   Is it reasonable that there is a leaking connection or a worn place in the cable from installation or wear from torque, etc? 

    Also I did not read anything about whether it was constant.  If he has a pressure tank the pump is only going to have power when the pressure switch turns it on.  That might help isolate/troubleshoot it.

    Not an electrician, just a well owner/remodeler (;-).  Only questions not advice!

    BobFor those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

11. 
    renosteinke | Nov 02, 2009 03:42am | #48

    You are correct in your thinking.

    I can only go by what the guy has said. I'm willing to let him make one guess ... make the problem occur, unplug the pump, see if the problem has gone away. If it has, then he will know the problem is somewhere on that circuit.

    The other matter is the one I referred to with the refrigerator example .... a motor does have its' insulation go bad with time, and the motor will still operate for quite some time before it completely burns out. In the meantime, current is leaking, creating a hazard. This sort of problem is a bit harder to completely identify, repairs are questionable, and simply replacing the motor is usually the most relaible fix.

12. 
    IronHelix | Nov 02, 2009 04:43am | #49

    First....I am not an electrician!!!!From text from the OP ..."Only the two wires no blank or bare ground wires. Again, only the two wires ( black and white ) leaving the relay, "no blank copper ground is in that box. From that box leaves a short BX cable is going to a plastic conduit. . From there with ft under ground to the well is 40 ft .in plastic. So from the switch to the pump no ground."I owned a 1927 vintage lumber yard where the 220v machinery was wired as described above for the pump...two wires....1 black 110 and 1 white 110 from opposite sides of the fuse box.The neutral end of the electrical circuit was the opposing out of cycle 110v and in reality there is no real neutral....and no ground. So when we had a machine "wear down w/age" it often manifested itself in a voltage leak into the machinery that had no where to go until you
    touched it and it "tingled"!I would suggest as other have to investigate the pump wiring, or any other 220v equipment such as dryer, A/C, electric 220v heater's etc. and see if they are wired the same as the pump...lacking a neutral and ground.IMHO.........Iron Helix

13. 
    Scott | Nov 02, 2009 05:33am | #50

    >>>I owned a 1927 vintage lumber yard where the 220v machinery was wired as described above for the pump...two wires....1 black 110 and 1 white 110 from opposite sides of the fuse box.That may have been the norm back then. I think you describe two hot conductors, each at 120V but at 180 degrees out of phase. Today we would do it with a black and red conductor, plus a bare bonding wire. Today if you must heat up a white wire (normally neutral) you are supposed to mark it with black tape so someone doesn't mistake it for neutral.>>>The neutral end of the electrical circuit was the opposing out of cycle 110v and in reality there is no real neutral....and no ground. So when we had a machine "wear down w/age" it often manifested itself in a voltage leak into the machinery that had no where to go until you
    touched it and it "tingled"!Not sure what you are getting at here. Perhaps you are suggesting that energy somehow ended up on the body of the machine. If so, you're right: without a bonding conductor to carry the energy to ground, you could get a tingling....perhaps a heck of a lot more depending on the fault. Could get scary.>>>I would suggest as other have to investigate the pump wiring, or any other 220v equipment such as dryer, A/C, electric 220v heater's etc. and see if they are wired the same as the pump...lacking a neutral and ground.There's nothing wrong with a circuit lacking a neutral provided there are no 120V loads. A good example is a water heater (nothing but 240V load). But appliances like dryers and ranges have both 120 and 240 volt loads. Hence the need for two hots and a neutral. Scott.

    Edited 11/1/2009 11:18 pm by Scott

14. 
    gfretwell | Nov 01, 2009 05:45pm | #40

    He is only talking about millivolts. The current will be divided. I agree if the pipes are bonded the voltage gradients should be minimized but with all the things we add to plumbing these days the pipe may not really be bonded and then it would be energized.
    Many years ago I had a test rig set up to measure the conductivity of various water supplies. I think I may do it again and record the results on my web site. I do remember the probes a foot apart would light a 60w bulb in my well water and in sea water the bulb was close to full brightness.

3. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 31, 2009 07:40am | #27

   In most cases there is a time lag between the pump starting stoping and water flowing.Often 10's of minutes.Without seeing the whole "system" my guess is the flowing water is a conductive path..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   brucet9 | Oct 31, 2009 11:36pm | #31

   That was the point of my post. Since he feels the effect immediately upon turning water on and stops feeling it immediately after turning water off, it seems to me that the pump is an unlikely source of the problem. BruceT

1. 
   BillHartmann | Nov 01, 2009 06:41pm | #41

   My suspicious are that the water FLOWING is not what is delivering the shock. The floor of the shower is tile on a concrete slab, IIRC. Possibly the wet shower floor is conductive enough to ground-ground (forgetting the sewer/drain which is probably plastic anyway). I gather that this is a barely perceptible tingle so we might be talking about a few 10's of microamps..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

2. 
   brucet9 | Nov 02, 2009 01:09am | #42

   OP said it is a fiberglass shower pan, but even so, your scenario might well explain why the tingle is directly related to water flowing. BruceT

4. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 05:19am | #4

   Where is your pump?

   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
5. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 30, 2009 05:44am | #5

   Try to get a setup where you can measure the voltage with a voltmeter.

   You can try the clipping one lead on the faucet and another on the drain covereplate. And with and without water running.

   You can also try the sink faucet and also the receptacle ground pin. And all combination of them.

   Once you get a voltage reading then try turning breakers on and off and see which affect the reading.

   .
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
1. 
   h12721 | Oct 30, 2009 06:00am | #6

   The drain up to the Leach Field is Plastic and concrete including the floor I am standing on.
   I am standing in the shower.
   The pump is about 50 to 100 feet deep. From pump to water tank is plastic.
   I can feel the tingle only on one spot by the second knuckle.
   No water running no tingle.
   It's vaguely possible that you're experiencing static electricity from the flowing water, though it seems unlikely.Is there such a thing?
   Hilmar

1. 
   gfretwell | Oct 30, 2009 06:33am | #7

   I am voting with Reno. I bet that pump trips a GFCI.
   You might be able to neutralize the problem with 20 feet or so of metal pipe, bonded to the grounding electrode system but you will probably be pin holing the pipe.
   The real fix is probably replacing the pump.

2. 
   Muteability | Oct 30, 2009 07:01am | #8

   I can't offer any better advice than what's already been mentioned. Your problem brings to mind two electrical stories though.First is a plumber/electrician friend was working in a rural school. There were complaints of shocks from the plumbing. When he checked, he could only measure voltage in the running water. As I recall the building had been grounded to the well pipe and all the buried pipe was replaced with plastic. The water was so full of minerals, it was acting as the ground. Second, was as I crawled under a building set on posts, the closer I got to the ground rod the more tingles I started to feel through the damp dirt. Then I brushed against some BX cable and got a real jolt. I can't remember what was shorting out, but when I pulled the cover off the fuse panel, I nearly cr*ped myself. There was a squirrel cooked on the 200A entry, before the main breaker. I think I did fall of the inverted bucket I was standing on.Does your shower head look like the on in the attached photos?Adam

1. 
   Clewless1 | Oct 30, 2009 03:56pm | #10

   That reminds me as a kid ... we'd hang out at the drinking fountain and like hold a pipe while touching the user or some such. Quite a jolt you would get. We thought it was 'funny' (funny).

1. 
   h12721 | Oct 30, 2009 04:47pm | #11

   To Adam: NO
   To Scot: I don’t know
   To gfretwell: I don’t know what you mean . “You might be able to neutralize the problem with 20 feet or so of metal pipe, bonded to the grounding electrode system but you will probably be pin holing the pipe.”
   I put a Cooper Plate on the shower floor and att. a meter to the metal wall plate (Faucet).
   It shows 25 mV or 25 micro Amp
   I can feel the tingle only on one spot by the second knuckle. May be I am to sensitive?
   Hilmar

2. 
   gfretwell | Oct 30, 2009 06:14pm | #12

   It is clear you have some electrical leakage into the water. If this water was going through a significant amount of metal pipe it might ground it out but you are also open to electrolysis.

3. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 30, 2009 06:27pm | #13

   "I can feel the tingle only on one spot by the second knuckle. May be I am to sensitive?"Several times I have had "strange SHOCKS" only at one place on the hand or when touch one specific item, but not others connected to it.Turns out that in one case I had a small metal sliver in my finger. In the other it was a small metal bur on the item. In either case touching them activated the nerve as though it was a small electrical "shock" or more accurately in my case a "tingle".As to the question of getting static electricity from water. I might be possible if you had ultra pure distilled water and ALL of the piping, valves, etc are plastic. But if is something that could only be demostrated in a lab under very controlled conditions and would never, never been seen in 10 billion homes in 10 billion years.I am assuming that you have a gravity septic system and no sewer ejector pump or dosing pump.Is so the water pump is the most likely cause. But could also be the WH or garbage disposal. And even apparently unrelated causes.If the water tank has enough storage try this with the water pump circuit breaker off. If it was wired correctly then this will isolate the pump. And you can do the same for the disposal and the WH..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

4. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 06:35pm | #15

   Yeah, good idea to try it with the pump circuit breaker off.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

5. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 06:34pm | #14

   What kind of meter?Support the copper plate on four glasses (to insulate it from the floor and drain) and rerun the test (with the shower running).
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

2. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 30, 2009 06:41pm | #17

   "Second, was as I crawled under a building set on posts, the closer I got to the ground rod the more tingles I started to feel through the damp dirt. Then I brushed against some BX cable and got a real jolt."We had a case posted here a year or two ago where there was difference in the voltage between the copper pipe in a crawl space and the ground.The clue was the voltage difference was proportional to load in the house. It did not matter which leg (or both) the load was on.Every on laughed at me, but turns out that I was right. The problem was completely outside the house.This was a rural area and long high voltage run to a pole and transformer for the drop to this one house.The problem turned out to be a bad connection on the transformer primary return ("neutral") and it was using the house drop neutral and ground rod for the primary return..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 06:47pm | #19

   IIRC, I believed you, and diagnosed it as probable "bad neutral".(Welcome back, BTW!)
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

2. 
   h12721 | Oct 31, 2009 05:49am | #24

   I have a question,:
   Shouldn't the water system I think of the piping, be grounded to the mains AC panel???
   I will try some of the things as I go along.
   Hilmar gfretwell: It is clear you have some electrical leakage into the water. If this water was going through a significant amount of metal pipe it might ground it out but you are also open to electrolysis. From the water tank , First tank after the pump that is the tank with the diagphram in it. About 35 feet by the time it gets to the Shower true the burner. BillHartmann : Turns out that in one case I had a small metal sliver in my finger. In the other it was a small metal bur on the item. In either case touching them activated the nerve as though it was a small electrical "shock" or more accurately in my case a "tingle".That is a good possibility I am assuming that you have a gravity septic system and no sewer ejector pump or dosing pump.“Yes” As to the question of getting static electricity from water. I might be possible if you had ultra pure distilled water and ALL of the piping, valves, etc are plastic. All copper
   But if is something that could only be demostrated in a lab under very controlled conditions and would never, never been seen in 10 billion homes in 10 billion years.
   I am assuming that you have a gravity septic system and no sewer ejector pump or dosing pump. Yes DanH: What kind of meter? Simpson #260 : CoilSupport the copper plate on four glasses (to insulate it from the floor and drain) and rerun the test (with the shower running).
   Shower is Fiberglass. BillHartmann If the water tank has enough storage try this with the water pump circuit breaker off. If it was wired correctly then this will isolate the pump. Will try that. The water has to run; if I turn the water off the sensation disappears. Turn water an again it is back
   Very pure or de-ionized water cn generate electrical static. Do you know how 'hard' you water is? If fairly high in minerals of any type, static is not a contributor. I have a water softener in line. junkhound A small sliver of metal embeds itself in a finger or knuckle, so small you do not feel the 'splinter'. When the metal splinter comes in contact with another metal, there is a microscopic battery created. If the water is running with you under the shower, you are closing he circuit for the metal splinter battery to deliver a tiny electrical sensation -about 200 to 300 micoramps is the lowest level of human detection in a situation like that, so that is one possibility as that size battery could put out a few hundred uA..
   In general, the amount of voltage/current you'd get this way would be very small, but the body is much more sensitive to voltage when the skin is wet. 25mV 25 micro A.

   Hilmar

3. 
   DanH | Oct 31, 2009 05:59am | #25

   Note that 25mv is about the lowest voltage you'd ever expect to measure in such a setup. Just the voltage generated by dissimilar metals in the circuit (such as it is) will generate that much (if not more).Voltage could in theory come from the pump through copper pipe and out the shower head. Basically, (as a thumb suck) every foot or so through the pipe the voltage would be cut in half -- in eight feet about 1/250, in ten feet 1/1000. So if there are 27 feet of copper pipe from pump to shower head you'd have a microvolt at the shower head.But hard water buildup or other factors could result in significantly less voltage loss -- maybe enough less for you to see a few millivolts.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

4. 
   DanH | Oct 31, 2009 06:01am | #26

   The static electricity buildup would happen in the water flow, as it left the shower head. Kind of like a Van de Graaff generator. Having a metal shower head and plumbing would actually enhance this action.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

5. 
   junkhound | Oct 31, 2009 01:27pm | #28

   25 mV, 25 uA, simpson 260.

   a.assume you had the simpson on the 1.5 V scale?  Scale makes a big difference in meter loading.  BTW, I got a meter like that for Christmas, think it was in 1958?  Big $$ then.

   b. current, how connected - one lead to you with water running, other to faucet?, or other connection.  Makes a big difference.  Not enough data to analyze correctly, you might be 71 YO, but no idea if you know how to hook up a meter (no disrespect intended) - If you just left it connected and switched the scale to uA, totally different story for analysis.

   c. Grab the faucet TIGHTLY with one hand, feel anything? 

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

   d. after c.,    glad to have known you <G> ................

    

6. 
   renosteinke | Oct 31, 2009 05:40pm | #29

   I've seen some posts here that suggested doing things that are downright dangerous - so I'd like to explain how I would approach this issue.

   First off, you do whatever you need to do to create the condition - and one of those volt 'tickers' is usually a good way to tell if the pipe is 'hot.'

   Having done that, you start turning breakers off until the problem goes away. That last breaker is the circuit that has the problem. Turn everything else back on, just to be sure.

   Once you know the circuit that has the problem, you remove every load (unplug or disconnect everything) on the circuit, and turn the breaker back 'on.' Does the problem re-appear?

   If it does, the problem is with the circuit. If not, it's with one of the loads. Let's assume it's with one of the loads.

   It's best to use a 'megger,' but often a simple ohm meter will work. You check each load, each wire to ground. You'll find one that is shorting to ground. Ther's the problem.

   If every appliance checks out OK, go back and make sure that the appliance was "on." That is, every switch or control was in the 'on' position. If you can't find the problem with an ohm meter, a megger will usually find it.

   Why was I ready to agree with the OP that his pump was the issue? First, because he said so. Second, motors do have their internal insulation break down over time. As with the 'shocking refrigerator,' this fault will only appear when the motor is running, and usually will be able to kill you for a very long time before it gats to be bad enough to trip the breaker.

   This is also one of the classic "bad GFI" situations, where the GFI is actually doing it's job, protecting you from a real hazard.

6. 
   Scott | Oct 30, 2009 07:03am | #9

   Do you know if your well casing is the grounding rod for your service?

7. 
   junkhound | Oct 30, 2009 06:38pm | #16

   The water has to run; if I turn the water off the sensation disappears. Turn water an again it is back

   From what you describe, the pump does not neccessarily need to be on, correct, or have you made that correlation yet ? 

   Very pure or de-ionized water cn generate electrical static.  Do you know how 'hard' you water is?  If fairly high in minerals of any type, static is not a contributor.

    

   There is another possibility not associated with the power system at all, which I've experienced occasionally after doing some welding, grinding, or metal lathe work without having used gloves.

   A small sliver of metal embeds itself in a finger or knuckle, so small you do not feel the 'splinter'.  When the metal splinter comes in contact with another metal, there is a microscopic battery created.  If the water is running with you under the shower, you are closing he circuit for the metal splinter battery to deliver a tiny electrical sensation -about 200 to 300 micoramps is the lowest level of human detection in a situation like that, so that is one possibility as that size battery could put out a few hundred uA.

    

   . 

1. 
   DanH | Oct 30, 2009 06:44pm | #18

   If the pump is bad, the water itself could be charged by it. Especially if the metal plumbing is coated inside with hard water deposits (for insulation), some of the voltage from the pump will come out in the shower stream even though the piping is grounded. So you'd only feel the shock when the water was running and striking your body.In general, the amount of voltage/current you'd get this way would be very small, but the body is much more sensitive to voltage when the skin is wet.
   A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

8. 
   Hiker | Oct 31, 2009 01:32am | #20

   As i read through the various ideas, my one experience with tingling in the plumbing was an old telephone ground hooked up to some old galvanized piping.  I was working in the crawl space and sweating like a pig.  Got a shock everytime I touched the pipe.

   I deleted the ground and it eliminated the "tingling".

    

9. 
   Scott | Nov 01, 2009 12:15am | #32

   This sounds pretty wierd. Is there anyone else in the house that can reproduce the symptom?

   Scott.

10. 
    excaliber32 | Nov 01, 2009 01:05am | #34

    Any current through the grounding electrode system (possibly in this case the water pipes) is not good current. Basically, if you are getting constant voltage in your houses grounding system, something is terribly wrong and you should take this very seriously. Renoisteke (?) has been the most helpful to you so far, and has offered you good help. Take him up on it before someone gets seriously hurt.

11. 
    curley | Nov 01, 2009 03:55am | #36

    Is there any chance that you have a nice life insurance policy and you and your wife arn't getting along???????????? she'd problibly in the other room throwing some switch  when your in the shower...............JJ