I have came to the reality that the two guys I have working with me are not going to become much more than laborers.
I have tried to teach them what I know, they seem to catch on until the next day. Then it’s their first day all over again. I have to explain it all over again.
The easiest of things I ask them to do takes them forever. Yesterday for example it took one of them 8 hours to put 4 pieces of base trim on. Stain grade so it should take a little longer, but he still needed filler on his joints. I have put up a ton of crown molding and door casing and haven’t touched the jar of filler yet.
I can’t charge $300 labor to put 4 pieces of base on, so I lost my tail. I have figured it out, I cased out 6 doors and installed 3 locksets so I made about $8 an hour yesterday.
I get in the groove during the day, next thing I know they are talking to each other and nothing is done.
I hate to let them go, one has kids. So my question is how do you encourage them? I gave them each $1 an hour raise (both make $20 now) at the beginning of the year, along with a weeks paid vacation and a $300 bonus check.
I’m really struggling with this, I get along with them great. They show up every day, but I can’t depend on them to do anything that takes any thought. Stairs, crown, cabinets, etc… I have to pretty much babysit them.
I make my share of mistakes, just read some of my posts here. I misread something or misunderstand and am corrected by the good folks here. But these guys are at times walking mistakes, I spend some days just fixing what they called done.
Any advice for me and my bronze medalists at the special olympics?
Woods favorite carpenter
Replies
They aren't going to change.
I kept a guy like that on for three years (I'm a foreman, not a GC.) Finally had it two weeks ago. There is no encouraging people who aren't capable of learning.
>>They aren't going to change.<<
I think you are right. I have to accept that.
They do well when we do roofs, just not anywhere else. I have pretty much stopped bidding roofs. I don't like them.
I know I can't keep losing money, I guess it might be time for me to have a sit down with them.
Let them know what I am thinking and have them respond, before I make a final decision.
I'd like to move them along, have them get good at what we do. I am probably not the best teacher. I didn't have a good one and I wonder if that is reflecting in how I show them what needs to be done. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt,
How did you get into a position where you are paying guys with little or no skill $20/hr?
When I hire someone, I have a questionairre about skill levels of various things we do. I believe I got from this someone at this site. It has numbers 1 through 5 with 1 being no experience and 5 being an expert. They fill it out during our interview and I review it and develop a general sense of their experience. If someone indicates they are a 3,4 or 5 on any item, I ask some easy questions first and them some pretty tough questions about the item. For trim carpenters, some of the questions may include:
What's the difference between base, case and crown moulding?
What is coping and where is it done?
Please tell me how you would trim this room?
I always preface the dialogue with "I am going to ask you several questions about the various topics to get a good sense of what your experience is. "
After a few questions, you can easily see if these guys have any experience at all and if you want to hire them, you can pay more accordingly.
To answer your original question, you need to get rid of these guys. You are overpaying for a lack of skill and underproduction. You are not a charity and you are not helping your own cause. I have had to let people go who I really liked, but they just were not cut out to work for me. You have to be honest and upfront with them and with yourself.
It is very challenging finding good help at all levels that complement your business. I get one great employee for about every seven I hire. I decided several years ago that I was not going to reward mediocrity and pay to see how much experience someone does not have. For all new potential hires, I tell them that "If you can demonstrate a certain level of skill, I will pay accordingly, but I am not going to pay you $xx per hour to find out you do not know as much as I was told. If you do demonstrate these abilities, I will increase pay right away, if not, we need to evaluate what role you will play"
I started a trim carpenter out at $20 an hour only to find out he did not know how to hang doors. Lesson learned.
Best of luck,
Bruce
>>How did you get into a position where you are paying guys with little or no skill $20/hr?<<
I pay my guys well, always have. Probably a big flaw with me. I have always thought I could teach them and have done nothing but fall flat on my face every time.
The last crew of guys I ran I would split the entire job with everyone. Laborers, carpenters alike. We all got 10-99'd but that is a reality with subcontracting. Everyone was making more than enough to where that wasn't an issue. But they got greedy and walked, did one job on their own and have been jobless for the last two years.
I guess I need to be a little more cautious when hiring someone. I actually thought about going solo for a while now. It would be a nice break from the babysitting.
Woods favorite carpenter
can it be that they are ust lazy anf lck drive....
only want to do enough to get by and no more...
meet more than a few of them...
them being history is in their futer...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They started out energetic and worked hard, now not so much.
I have to remind them to clean before we leave someones house every night. So they tell me it's clean and leave. I look and they never swept up, cleaned nothing. Last time they swept, they left the piles of stuff everywhere.
I have been doing alot of thinking about this in the last few days. Maybe I need to make this more of a business matter than a personal matter. Woods favorite carpenter
They started out energetic and worked hard, now not so much.
do they see you as soft and won't do anything og about nothing???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think so, if they struggled with something I always did it for them. I made them watch to see what I did. They probably just tuned me out and thought about when lunch was.
I'm going to have a talk with both today. See what good that might do. Give them a last chance to make their check. Woods favorite carpenter
I"ve been there and I can't emphatically enough say this......Cut them free. You don't want the expensive lesson I had. Cut them free.
cut your losses. Do it like you'd remove a bandaid, just rip it out quick and move on.
I've been were you are at, I don't envy ya.....
I think the best thing you can do is tell these guys what you see, eg. " I tell you to do X and you dont do it, You tell me something was done than I find out it wasn't" and so on. Explain to them that if you can't rely on them to make you money, pretty soon they aint gonna be making any either. Then back it up.
Set acheivable production standards and hold them to it, if they show a consistent lack of EFFORT, dont hesitate to fire them. That is one problem that never fixes itself. For instance, my best employee is a former school teacher, when he first started he was freaked out on a ladder and painfully slow moving around on a roof. But he always busted his hump, max effort, conscientious steady as a clock every day. The comfort level took care of itself because of his inner drive to be dilligent.
A guy I just let go could fly up and down a ladder, very good with his hand/eye coord., but lazy as hell. He would show up for work, start talking and not shup for the rest of the day, usually slowing down one or two other guys in the process... so much ability, it killed me to fire him but.......
Couple of other misc:
I have a company policy that if an employee lies to me in is grounds for instant termination. Another problem that never fixes itself, and once you catch it you are never sure when it is happening again.
$20 for laborers ? Sweet gig.......for them. I would expect an employee to be able to work completly usupervised for weeks if I was paying them that kind of wage.......From your description of their abilities and diligence I wouldn't pay a dime over $10.....
If you want to give em a chance, do this. Tell them that you are cutting their wage to 10 bucks, then give them a list of the issues you see surrounding their employment with you.
Incentivise their production on a weekly basis. We implemented this about two years ago and our production and morale is gone straight up. It works like this: Every week we figure our total profit for the week,(after all payroll, overhead, owners pay etc.) if the week results in a profit of more then 1g, their cut is 10% split among all employees. We pay this monthly to simplify things and also to even it out somewhat as some weeks are better then others, but keep the guys abreast of how their effort and production is directly related to how much moola they are going to get at the end of the month.
Naive but refreshing !
You cannot teach people, they have to have the desire and drive to learn themselves, just like you did. The best teacher can only facilitate the process. When you do work that requires attention to detail and development of skills, lumpers aren't going to make the grade, you need a carpenter or someone that wants to be a carpenter. You spend spare time trying to improve your skills and knowledge. You want to be the best you can be and work at it. This doesn't sound like the case with your workers. An employee should be making money for you, not the other way around. If you want to run a charity, get out of the building business. These guys are just picking your pockets and I bet they think you're a cheap skate and aren't paying them enough. Why do they have to do anything when you come and do their job for them? Toughen up!Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
matt... i am a firm believer in having employees..
been meeting a payroll since 1975... right now i one guy with me 7 years and the other 3 years
most of the time i've never had to fire anyone .. they quiit
but.. when it would get to the point where i no longer wanted to go to work because i didn't like having to deal with one of my employees... then i knew it was time for that person to be gone
most of teh time i would fire them by telling them i thought they whould be better off working for someone else
then i would laythem off "for lack of work" so they could collect until they found another job
keep working on your skills.. and look for diamonds in the rough.. good employees are out there... once you find one figure out how to keep them... sounds like you are overpaying for economic conditions in Michigan
also think about benfits instead of straight payMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I know I am overpaying them, I hate going through employees. I give them a little extra money to be there everyday. And do their job.
I could get another good carpenter for around $15, but he'd be shopping for a new job the whole time he was working with me. Woods favorite carpenter
matt.... at $20 he'll still be shopping
at $15 plus gas & a cell phone.... maybe not
thing is most of the competition for labor is unenlightened.... they treat labor as just another commodity with interchangeable pieces
you seem to like steady workers... what do they need ? find out and try to transfer some of the compensation from weekly pay to things they need.. like health insurance
when you do finally get a good employee.. it really reduces the competition by offereing benefits and steady employment
also.... you do have to think about the nature of your work.. it seems to be general prupose remodeling
remodeling does not lend itself to efficiency.... it does lend itself to good planning.. proper sequence... and one time execution
so....do you use your slow guy on trim... or wait two days for a very efficient trim sub ?
going to hang 5 sheets of drywall very slowly ?... or wait three days for a very fast sheetrocker to come in ?
you are looking for attitude and attention to detail.... keep lookingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think my compnay is somewhat like yours Mike, at least in the scope of the work we do.
I don't sub much out, I keep the schedule full that way. I get through alot of it in good time. Meaning I can make money doing most of it.
I don't sub out sheetrock unless it's over 2-3 rooms. I can easily handle those and make some money. Over that I can make the same with a sub.
>>you are looking for attitude and attention to detail.... keep looking<<
Right you are Mike, the more I talk about this with you guys the more apparent the answer becomes to me. It's been smacking me in the face for almost a year now and I have looked the other way.
He has been informed on how things are going to start going, as DP says roll with me, or get rolled over. Woods favorite carpenter
so you are going to quit turning the other cheek???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I believe so Mr. Imerc.
I am still going to ease into it, just not as slow as I had planned before.
I got a great nights sleep last night and have a clear head on my shoulders now. Kind of emabarrassing to me the way I have let these guys walk all over me.
Now that I realize this I am not very happy with what I have let go on in the last year.
Insomnia is a b!tch, I haven't realized some things until it's too late. Woods favorite carpenter
doesn't appear to be late in coming.. only a bit on the slow side...
why be embarrased???
WTB... to the body... all of us have been there...
good to hear you got you some sleep.. stress just doesn't belong...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have been fighting insomnia for years.
Until last night I had been up for almost three days. I didn't realize what was bothering me until someone who'll remain anonymous told me stress was the problem.
Little did I know how right he was.
Work was stressing me out to the point where I wasn't sleeping. I have been getting migraines for the last few years on a daily basis and I think the stress is causing those too.
Getting this out in the open with my guys has cleared my head alot. My attitude is back to easy going. Not knotted up. Clear as mud?
Embarrassed because I feel like I have been their door mat. They know that they have been walking all over me and I have been catering to their whining by throwing money at them to fix the problem.
Woods favorite carpenter
I have been fighting insomnia for years.
so don't fight it...
get a grab on it's handles fix it...
Until last night I had been up for almost three days. I didn't realize what was bothering me until someone who'll remain anonymous told me stress was the problem.
go have coffe or lunch or a beer or what ever with yur buddy more often...
have a beech sension...
we're not talkining crying in yur beer but talking about what's chewing on yur butt... dull it's teeth so you can see what you need to be looking at a bit clearer....
Little did I know how right he was.
it must have been obvious to him...
WTB.. others here see it to...
Work was stressing me out to the point where I wasn't sleeping. I have been getting migraines for the last few years on a daily basis and I think the stress is causing those too.
good chance...
WTB they start in in the neck and upper shoulders... stress causes tension.. tension chokes on the nerve clusters... chocked nerves promote headaches...
Getting this out in the open with my guys has cleared my head alot.
good...
My attitude is back to easy going.
good..
Not knotted up.
good...
Clear as mud?
yup...
Embarrassed because I feel like I have been their door mat.
okay so it happened...
get up dust yurself off....
drive on...
They know that they have been walking all over me and I have been catering to their whining by throwing money at them to fix the problem.
so throw the money a you and yiurs...
that idea has got to be more gooder...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>go have coffe or lunch or a beer or what ever with yur buddy more often...<<
I wish I could, it was a phone converstion with someone that contacted me from BT.
Turned out to be one of the best calls I got in a long time.
Which leads me to another idea, how do most of you cope with the stress that comes with the job? Woods favorite carpenter
nurture... i was raised on Mad Magazine..... my mentor was Alfred E, Newman
and i adopted his philosophy:
what, me worry ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
learn to roll with the punches....
when things are in SNAFU mode use yur talent to make things right again...
treat it like cleaning up after a hack....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
how do most of you cope with the stress that comes with the job?
One thing I've always done which works well for me; take one full day a week off for whatever I want to do.
I've always made Sunday my day of no job related anything. Having that permanent refuge, that day to decompress on a motorcycle or going fishing or whatever, has helped me to stay relaxed and focused all week.
>>I've always made Sunday my day of no job related anything. <<
I wish I could, I can't get away from someone wanting something done.
Even Christmas my mom wanted me to drive my work truck to her place to put in can lights.
Or my brother suckers me into hanging and taping sheetrock in his basement.
If I don't do it then I get to hear about how the guy they hired screwed something up.
Last time I said I was too busy, a deck was built with drywall screws. It has almost fallen apart in under a year. $6,000 it cost them and I have to hear about it and now rebuild it.
I need to find a way to say no. I have never been able to tell anyone that without feeling guilty. Woods favorite carpenter
do you charge your relatives a fair price for ork rendered???
I starred in that movie for the longest time...
it as always something.... a small tweak to major renovations and additions...
they sold and I never saw a dime... major issue at the house as the wife was always proding / nagging me to go help or do...
then one day a tornado took my roof off... when I asked for help... you guessed it....
I was on the roof mid afternoon in August in FL no less... BIL calls wants to use my boat and can I fill the tank and provide fishing tackle and BTW can you launch ii at............
never could get that cordless phone to work again....
one good thing about that deal was the ife never asked me to help her faimly again... I honestly believe she was too scared to...
her family did ask me directly a fe times and trated it like "just another job" and priced it out for them... asn't too long before them asking came to an end to...
life got better...
let's not even talk about the them borroing tools while I wasn't there and what they did to them...
that will bring the rage to the surface in short order...
had to threaten my FIL with making pain and suffering his new carreer if he touched another tool of mine...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have been giving them the family discount of free. They buy materials and I put it together. I charged my mom for her roof, she got 4 bids at over 12k, I pulled it off under $7k. The house had 7 layers of shingles on it, filled a 30 yard roll away dumpster on a 20 square roof.
For the price of free it will be done on my schedule not theirs. If it takes me 3 straight saturdays then thats what it takes.
This is how my family has operated for longer than I have been alive. My uncles and grandfather did it for everyone in the family. Now I am the sole carrier of the torch. Not so glamorous now that I am the only one doing it.
Every time I charged them it ended up in a fight so I stopped doing it. Money does weird things to peoples thinking process. I could care less about it, greed is not a trait that I posses.
Woods favorite carpenter
Now I am the sole carrier of the torch.
Its lonely at the top huh? And sometimes no fun!
OFF TOPIC: Heard on the radio today that more people are leaving MI everyday of the year than any other state in the union. Great economic news.
Read a report the other day, MI and RI are the only states with neg growth.
Doug
I ran that link the other day. Michigan lost 50,000 people last year. They would have lost far more but most can't sell their houses to get out. Texas grew by 200,000 last year. I'm part of that count. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Read a report the other day, MI and RI are the only states with neg growth
global warming ...
they'll all be back!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I understand them leaving MI but why RI? Smith do something?
Stealers put on a good show last night but I guess it wasnt to be!
Is this true, first time Stealers lost to same team twice in one year at home? I read that on some sports chat but you never know if you can believe any of that BS.
Doug
Hey Matt,Have you thought about getting Gary Katz's videos for your guy to watch? They start out pretty slowly with base and case, using the miter saw, etc. The great thing about them is they teach a system; a way to plan cuts anf think about angles. They might really help your guy if he is struggling with trim work. I thought of it because I noticed someone is selling them in the classifieds section, good deal, too. Think about it.I've never had someone working for me, I just went out on my own, mostly due to stress/depression. I went into a massive depression last winter and basically had a nervous breakdown this summer. Quit the really good job I had working for one of the best finish carpentry contractors in San Diego. After a while, the little strss inducing things outweighed the good things and all the cool work and zillion dollar houses I go to work on. I'm poorer,and that makes things hard at home, and hard on my wife. I've also not been this happy for years. Sometimes the tough change is well worth it. I don't know at this point if I could have someone working for me, especially if it at all was bringing me down.That being said, sometimes guys just need motivation, the right spark, or whatever. Sounds likr maybe you knocked him out of his complacency.Good luck man,- KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
"Which leads me to another idea, how do most of you cope with the stress that comes with the job? "Your stress will disappear forever when you start working with the right people....even if that means you are working alone.Did you feel stressed out when you saw that trim part 3" short after telling them to fit it all tight? Do you feel stress when you have to tell someone to take a piece off and do it right and they want to argue with you about it? Do you feel stress when you have to ask a guy something 3-4 times? Do you feel stress when you have to ask a crew to clean a job site daily and they fail to carry out that simply task?I lived through all those stresses myself and found myself fighting desperately to change the work ethics of the people I worked with. When I finally woke up, I realized that I only had myself to blame for the situation. That's when I started cutting guys loose as soon as I realized that they were of the wrong character. Instead of focusing on their skills, I started focusing on their attitudes and I made sure that I didn't keep someone with a bad attitude around for one minute more than necessary. So, to answer your question: my stress was reduced significantly as soon as I took control of my ship and started firing these characters as soon as I recognized that our philosophies didn't mesh. I was not afraid to tell them explicitly that they needed to fit into MY PROGRAM , not the other way around. I also was, and still am, very quick to explain that I don't like giving simple orders twice and that if they can't figure out how to sweep a room after being instructed once, they probably wouldn't be able to figure out how to figure and cut a complex bastard hipped roof, so we might as well part company right now. Of course, you have to back up your promises with action. It sounds harsh but in fact it creates organization and consistency. The guys that stay and hang around don't have to worry about working with other guys that don't take care of their end of the bargain. Everyone pulls their own weight and we don't have to beg one another to perform simple duties that should be done without asking. For the record: I would have sent Mr 3" gap home and told him I'd call him when we had work that better suited his skill-set. In my old days, I would have walked out to my bagphone in the truck and dialed the help wanted ads at the newspaper and been listing the ad before that fellow had his tools packed. The number is still burned in my head and I don't remember many numbers at my age. Today, I'd be calling one of my Craigslist contacts and firing up a new ad if I didn't have someone lined up.Don't be a taker! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Most of the stress comes from these two guys. It wasn't all that clear to me until recently. I can't get it through to them that a kitchen comes with just enough crown, toe kick, etc.. to do the job. Sometimes not enough. Any screw ups and I have to buy a $120 piece of crown.
Another thing that adds to it is people not paying. Or looking for a reason not to pay. I went into detail with you in another thread about liens and lawyers so I'll leave the details of that out.
With winter set in now, my hobbies are not an option. Can't golf, can't fish, can't skeet and trap shoot. I'm not an ice fisherman so that option is out. These are the things I love to do on a regular basis. They help me forget about work.
I got a chainsaw mill recently and I think I am going to start playing with that on weekends to relax a little. Might sound dumb to some people, but I think it will be alot of fun. This and getting the help in line should put a little more balance in my life.
OFF TOPIC: Heard on the radio today that more people are leaving MI everyday of the year than any other state in the union. Great economic news.
Woods favorite carpenter
OFF TOPIC: Heard on the radio today that more people are leaving MI everyday of the year than any other state in the union. Great economic news.
This is a suprise?
MikeInsert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.
>>This is a suprise?<<
I knew people were running from here, just not that many.
Kind of makes you wonder how they are going to adjust the budget here, with all that tax revenue leaving.
We already had a huge deficit that they couldn't balance, curious to see what side effects this is going to cause.
Woods favorite carpenter
We already had a huge deficit that they couldn't balance, curious to see what side effects this is going to cause.
Your going to have to start plowing your own snow of the streets!
Doug
>>Your going to have to start plowing your own snow of the streets!<<
The road commision has stopped plowing until the snow stops. They plow highways at times, but if it's snowing then they aren't doing it.
Woods favorite carpenter
Whats wierd ( and good) is that I heard on Michigan radio that we actually had a small surplus for 07. It'l probably get eaten up in 08.
MikeInsert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.
They did turn a surplus this year because of their big tax increase. It surprised them too. They are still projecting a large shortage next year. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
everything U say about job stress is true.
I learned years ago ...
I am not ... at that and this point in my life ... able to work with helpers.
might be me ... might be them ... don't know ... don't care.
I do know ... having to explain things over and over ...
having to accept or pay to fix crappy work ...
and having to babysit ...
ain't for me.
just sitting back and watching a grown man try to figure out something that should be second nature just plain drives me nuts.
working solo most of the time may be "harder" ...
but for me ... it's way less stressful.
I took that long hard look one day ... and realized ... the helper was the main reason I was so pissed off at the world. Then I sat back and thot about all the helpers before him.
and realized ... I'm much better off without a FT helper.
sat back for a second .... and tried to figure out if it was me or them.
then realized ... ain't planning on firing myself ... so either way ... they gotta go.
there are times I reconsider ...
had an idea for a different business model that would require at the minimum one FT guy ... and 2 would be better. And hust today had an unplanned phone call which may shift my summer and future after that into a whole new direction that would definitely require one good FT guy ... so I will revisit the situation.
but ... for the time being ... I'm just better off trying to work myself to death.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
<you are looking for attitude and attention to detail.... keep looking>
I don't disagree Mike, but why the he!! is that? Different labor pool these days apparently.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
i don't think there is a different labor pool...
the military still pretty much gets their quotas... and they need motivated people
one big source is guys who are tired of the business end.. and just want to do the trade... thye want steady work, decent pay, diffferent benefits... some need health ins... some get it thru their wives
the people we want working for us are always going to be out there... find out who they are and what it takes to get them Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
They tell you they have cleaned and after they leave you find they haven't.
Why do you tolerate them lying to you? Lie to me once, you get a warning, twice and you are gone.
They tell you they have cleaned and after they leave you find they haven't.
One problem I've noticed over the years is that "clean" has a different meaning to someone that rents than it does to someone that owns their home. And married or single sometimes changes the definition as well. http://grantlogan.net/
My mother once said to me, "Elwood" -- she always called me Elwood -- "Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." For years I tried smart. I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowde (James Stewart), "Harvey"
Just like See you said, clean to them means dump to the HO.
Last friday I told them to sweep up before they left and they did just that. I have no issues with them wanting to punch out at 4 on friday.
I went around shutting lights off a few hours later on my way out and they left the piles everywhere. Everything was swept up nice, I had to shop vac up the piles.
I chuckled about it, it was just like most things they do. 75% done and forget to do the rest or most of it's wrong. Woods favorite carpenter
You said 'sweep up' , you didn't say 'and then put it in the trash can.' lol
Exactly.
They mean well at times, just forget things.
Friday they want out bad, so I try to make that happen when I can. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt, what is your typical strategy with dealing with these relatively minor setbacks? Do you finish their job for them, without discussing it? Do you clean it up, then discuss it on Monday morning? A good manager sets the standards but also follows up on it. Have you read the book "First, Break all the Rules" yet. If you intend to continue managing, you need to read this book. It's a relatively easy read but immensely powerful. There are some folks who naturally know how to manage but most of us need to learn a bit more about it. You sound like one who would benefit greatly from this $10 investment. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>> Do you finish their job for them, without discussing it?<<
I usually finish it for them, then I explain why I had to get involved. Not with cleaning because they get the idea behind that I think. But more along any work they do.
They don't posses the skills to transition from framing to trim to siding. Which happens with us all the time. I have been very fortunate to work under very versatile carpenters who didn't specialize in any one aspect of carpentry.
These guys have been under specialized carpenters, the one that is staying is a good roofer and sider. Other than that he needs alot of babysitting.
I tought him how to cope trim, fit joints, hang cabinets. Unless I put a fire under his tail he won't do it without me holding his hand. I think he is unsure of his abilities. Which is fairly normal being new to alot of things we have been doing.
It's tough for me to teach someone something that I was born with, a drive to become the best carpenter I can be. Maybe it isn't possible. Woods favorite carpenter
Dude, read that book Jim suggested. In it you'll see that you can't change people's nature.
I'll give it a shot.
I need all the help i can get.
Woods favorite carpenter
You definitely need it Matt. It was a great revelation to me after more than 25 years in business. I wish I had read it before I took my first foreman job. It helps me immensely everyday, even now when I deal with whomever. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for all your suggestions Jim.
Your really helping this "apprentice" out.
Woods favorite carpenter
matt,
Your post took me down memory lane when I taught residential construction for a year. had a student who took six hours for 3 pcs of base in a closet. He usually came in hung over, and rarely on time. But there were worse ones that got kicked out of the program.
Then there was the guy who seemed the laziest (during the early stages)who absolutely blossomed when we got to trimming the house. Easily trimmed a quarter of the project house, out of 18 students. Last I heard he was a foreman for a mid-range remodeling company.
We made up some projects that the students were required to pass before being allowed on the project house. Coping base, hanging and trimming doors, casings, etc. maybe you need to define the skills needed a little more clearly, and if they don't have it, and don't want to develope it??????........they've pretty much cut their own throat.
It always amazed me that we had students with "real world" experienced instructors, and paying over $4K in tuition, that treated the program like it was a big pain in the azz.
Bowz
Are they better when they're not working together? Maybe they're feeding off each other's laziness.
What if you were to lay them off, one at a time, for a month or so and see how each one works out individually? You could be blunt and tell them that it's a trial period or you could just tell them you want to lighten your workload for a little while. If they find another job in the meantime, it doesn't sound like that would bother you much.
I wouldn't cut their pay at this point. Human nature being what it is, they will probably just find new ways to do even less work to justify to themselves, their new, lower rate.
I think you have the potential to change this. In your post you question your methods and that's a good start.
Part of your job isn't doing any work at all. It's finding and keeping good workers.
But that is work. So you have to make it part of your work. Make a conscious decision to become a good employer that hires and keeps good workers.
Otherwise it's just not going to happen all by itself.
"I have came to the reality that the two guys I have working with me are not going to become much more than laborers.
I have tried to teach them what I know, they seem to catch on until the next day. Then it's their first day all over again. I have to explain it all over again."
I'm going to recommend the book: First, Break All the Rules. It's a book that interviewed the worlds greatest managers. One of the conclusions was to hire people for their talents and don't try to mold them into something they aren't suited for.
Basically: don't hire laborers and try to make them skilled carpenters. Don't hire carpenters and try to make them foreman/managers. Don't hire foreman/managers and try to make them laborers, etc.
We are what we are.
You are in a classic carpenter dilemma: you THINK you need to keep your help but KNOW you can't afford them. You want to be loyal to them, but they are failing to meet their obligations on the unwritten contract.
Just yesterday, I explained why I had a very high turnover and over the years I summed it up this way: "I can teach a worker to be a carpenter, but I can't teach anyone how to be a worker." They need to bring that talent: "worker" to the table every day. Yours aren't.
I also went on to explain that after I hear that little voice telling me that the guys won't work out I've never had it turnaround, even in my earlier days when I tried everything to make it work. Your best bet is to part company as fast as possible. In my later years, as soon as that little voice spoke to me, it was a done deal: "Sorry, this isn't working for us. You have to go.". Done. That fast. It saved my hours, days, and weeks of grief.
You are suffering because you know what needs to be done. Don't wait. Do it. Save your bankroll, sanity and cut them loose so they can find a career that they love. They'll be better for it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Still tryin' to read through the new posts.
Good post Blue.
J.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
One issue that might be missing in your communication with them is the difference between DOING and ACCOMPLISHING. I've noticed this with a wide variety of people. If you tell them to clean the house, they may sweep and feel that they did what you said. If you tell them to get the house clean, then that is a whole different game.
So if you are going to continue them and have a discussion with them, make sure your a communicating what you want ACCOMPLISHED, not what you want DONE.
"next thing I know they are talking to each other and nothing is done."
Like someone pointed out. Are they feeding on each others laziness?
Pick one to keep, one to let go. If you can't decide which is better, keep the one that wore a blue shirt that day. If when left alone the remaining one has not improved, let him go.
Sounds like you would be better off going solo for a while vs. keeping these guys on. They sure don't seem to be helping your productivity.
I think a manager needs to respect the folks he/she has working for them, but the workers having a little accountability/fear of their job is a good thing.
I'm guessing your out the door by now so let us know how your talk went today.
"Pick one to keep,"At $20 per hour, I'd keep the one that could get that trim piece cut and nailed in ten minutes. Oh wait....neither can do that. That's the one I'd keep. The problem is that he wants to work with self motivated individuals and both have demonstrated that they don't fit that bill. I wouldn't keep anyone around like that even if I was paying minimum wage. It's too demoralizing.He needs to start a re-building program and if he hires these guys back at some time in the future, he needs to put them on a piecework basis. I doubt that they would work for what they are worth though.The issue of properly sweeping the floors is a matter of respect. We all get lazy about mundane duties like this but if the boss has made this a direct request, it CANNOT BE IGNORED. Matt needs to hire guys with military experience. He'd never have to ask twice to get those floors swept and kept. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good point. My thought is that maybe, just maybe, the remaining slacker will step up to the level expected. But as you point out, they have had their chance(s). Best to cut em loose now.
TFB (Bill)
Actually, it might not be fair to categorize them both as slackers. I know this sounds like a flip flop, but I think it's important to go back to my original post and remember what I said about the book First, Break All the Rules.They say to hire talent and let the talent work at what they are talented at. These characters might be out of their element, as he already stated. They are roofers and roughers and he is asking them to do trim work. Not all people have the ability to function outside of their natural talents. Some people struggle mightily with the mental challenge of doing tasks they aren't qualified for. I'm a competent framer but I'm a lousy cabinet maker....yet they are both "carpentry" skills. These guys might need to be let go on the basis of the changing business model. They want to be up on a roof, not handling a baseboard and they actually might want to be fired or laid off. They might have the right work ethic in their field of choice. You should see how unproductive I am at my new job...oh...I'm supposed to be soliciting bids.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"
Matt needs to hire guys with military experience. He'd never have to ask twice to get those floors swept and kept. "
Another good post , until you put that in there.
Your other post was more on the button.
I hired a number of, out of military guys, found the work ethic to be 50 / 50.
Just my experience, but still 50/50.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
You really hit a nerve with your question. Let me throw in my 2bits.
Your desire to do a good job may not be theirs. Hardest thing for an employer to convey is the level of performance they expect. I've been on job sites and seen really bad work and the usual reaction to any criticism is that the foreman thought it was good enough. Not so says the foreman but he either didn't stay on these guys or he was their 'buddy'.
That goes to what was pounded into my head when I was in officer training (Army) and that manta applies anywhere. "Familiarity breeds contempt". If you want to be their friend, fine, buy them a beer. But your firm got hired to do a job and you've got to show a profit or you'll be working for someone else in short order. Sorry to be so abrupt but that's the reality of it. You can carry these two for only so long and then you either let 'em go or they get the message.
Lastly, and again I don't want to sound harsh but I want anyone who wants a good job completed to succeed at it, I have found that a clearly stated set of goals, the level of performance expected and the time frame to finish the work is a good basic means to get what you want. (Repeat daily!) I work hard to understand each man's ability to do the work and adjust as necessary. I make it clear that they are free to question the methods and offer other solutions but there is a limit. And I review their work when finished. They've got to know that everyone on the jobsite will be judged by all the work done.
OK, that was 4bits but....Best of luck with this.
ciao, ted
Thanks to all who replied, I had the talk with them today.
One said he applied for the cereal company Kelloggs a few weeks ago and just got notice he was hired. In the meantime he took a night job cooking at a bar across town. He is going to work a few more days and he is gone. One problem solved.
The other apologized when I brought this to his attention. I had to make it clear that I wasn't joking. He thought I was joking around like I normally do. He looked me in the eye and said he is going to give alot more effort.
I also made it clear that I didn't want him to just work harder I wanted him to make an effort to be a good carpenter. I told him I'll sweep and clean all day if he goes through with his promise.
I've always been their buddy, the guy that bails them out when the sh!t hits the fan. I told him that he is going to have to start thinking for himself and not rely on me to make his joints tight, or scribe something for him. I'll help him out if he really needs it, but I'm done with him not attempting to think.
I didn't have the greatest teachers in my past, they were hard on me. They expected me to learn on my time and work on theirs. I learned by watching how it was done. Now I have this forum and this has become a great tool for me to learn.
I question my own ways of doing things when someone doesn't work out. I try to adapt to the way they learn. All this has done is give me alot of grief and empty my account. I am going to slowing tighten things up. I don't want to make it an overnight change but in a months time things won't be so easy. I hope this will move things along.
Woods favorite carpenter
Matt, I would add that he has to crack the books, and I mean trade journals, FHB, FHB books, etc.. I learned a lot more by reading and looking at drawings or pictures than my few teachers taught me in the field. He has to learn .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Believe me DT I have tried to get him into reading some books.
I have a fairly big collection of books, Tautons, JLC's, other misc books.
I have offered them to him, and told him about these forums.
He uses his time for him. He also has 2 kids so I am sure that cuts into after work time a little.
One day I handed him A Roof Cutters Secrets, in my opinion one of the best books out there right now. He looked at me and said, "I already know how to cut shingles, what do I need this book for." Trusses are far more popular than rafters here so I understood that he had no idea what it means to rafter an entire house.
I explained it to him and he gave it back to me, "I'll never read it."
Are you kidding me? If one of the guys I used to work for handed me a book and told me to study up I would have done it. I used to study up on old union carpenter manuals that were hand me downs from my uncles. Woods favorite carpenter
I used to study up on old union carpenter manuals that were hand me downs from my uncles.
Big difference, you give a sh1t.
I'm guessing you'll get fed up with #2 before spring. Best of luck.
Mike
Insert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.
I think you are right Junkman. I know Gunner was right when he said that once you have employees, you are THEIR slaves. Thats how it was for me until I recognized that and made the change. After that, I made sure everyone knew that it was all about ME, NOT THEM. What does that mean? That means that they are there to serve me, so I can serve my master....the general or owner that hired me. I refused to let them make their problems, my problems. I learned to cut guys loose so fast it would make their heads spin. My long term guys used to laugh and refuse to learn the new guys names till they made it a week. My record for one job was 35 guys....that was 35 different framers on one custom frame...that normally was built with five guys! I shoulda framed that time sheet. Theres a little humorous story about that...but I'll spare ya.Matt....you have to make a decision about who you are, what your business does and what kind of cew you want to have. You don't have to settle for less, but you have to recognize when your crew doesn't fit your business model and meet your goals. It's okay to be sympathetic and loyal to your guy but you have to be tough and drive him. If you don't, the tail will be wagging the dog.The way you teach the guys to fit the joints tight is to make them tear off every joint that isn't 100% perfect. You then have to also let them know what the time frame for every room/component is and let them know when they are succeeding and failing. If they are failing, you need to include them in the discussion of how/what/why the new plan is for them to succeed. Ask them what they need to prevail. Lastly, when you tried to force the carpenter book on him and he refused, you were given a very clear message. He's not capable of that level of carpentry. Every army has officers and troops and he's a trooper. Officers earn their money by leading and troops earn their money by carrying out the orders and moving the loads. Every crew needs both. Be careful about paying the troops the same as the officers. You can't ever afford to do that. I'd probably be searching for a replacement at much lower rate. You think you need this guy but I can assure you thatyou don't. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
I do make him tear everything apart that isn't right.
His usual response is "you've got to be kidding me, you can fill that." THen I have to tell him 3-4 more times to tear it off.
Yesterday he put a piece of toe kick on a cabinet, I made him scribe it to the floor. Turned out to be a pretty good scribe. Made me think what I was teaching him was sinking in. THen I saw he cut the piece 3" short. He nailed it on anyways and moved on to the next piece. WTF? I almost sent him home for that, why would you nail a piece on thats 3" short?
I didn't try to force the book on him, he always asks me where I learn some of the things we do. Finally I handed him a book and said "this is a great book, you'll learn alot from it."
Woods favorite carpenter
<I didn't try to force the book on him, he always asks me where I learn some of the things we do.>
Been getting that question from 'em on and off for years. They're all interested til you tell 'em it wasn't by osmosis--there's actually WORK involved.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I'm not sure what they think.
I come to work with my rafter cut sheet figured out already. I do my homework at night and thats seems unreasonable to them.
Thing of it is, it doesn't seem like work to me. Getting the numbers to add up, or figuring out why things turn out and some don't. Alot of fun to me. Instead of wandering around all day having no idea why nothing is fitting.
Woods favorite carpenter
I found that I can only have my guys doing certain levels of work. Ive tried to have some beginners doing some trim work, BIG NO NO. I even had my more experienced carpenter doing cabinet work, Made some mistakes. If you want something done right, do it yourself. I ended up firing my entry level carpenter, and refocusing what I put my other carpenter on for projects instead of assuming they have the skill, and finding out the hard way.
Now, I do the cabinet work or have him help me, never set him up alone. Interior trim/Exterior trim no problem, but something finicky and high visibility like cabinetry is better left for me to do. I tried to take on more employees and grow, but quickly realized that I lost control of quality, as well as efficiency. I do not have the time or the desire to rip off a piece of trim 3-4 times, that what test pieces are for.
Let the guy go, my highest paid carpenter is $19 and he will be staying there for a while!
I have been really happy with all of his work, except the cabinet scenario when he was on his own.
It was after being in the same boat and reading this thread that I took action and fired my employee. I gave him a second chance, but when the writing is on the wall, I had to make the move. It does not make sense to jeopardize your business and reputation.
After this thread had been going a while I had one guy leave, and the other put on part time.
I do most things solo for now, I tried to be patient but it was not working at all.
Woods favorite carpenter
That must be a nice change of pace. Plus, your probably more efficient not having to teach and babysit at the same time. When I let one guy go I immediately felt the burden dissipate and was able to look back and realize how bringing him on in the first place was not really worth it.
Enjoy the peace and quiet.
One customer said to me
"you get alot done when the other guys aren't with you. You don't have to watch their every move"
I smiled and agreed. Knowing how right she was. I had been fooling myself for way too long.
Right then and there after she said that I knew I made the right move. Woods favorite carpenter
that how come I work alone..two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
if you want to work by yourself, that's fine...
but if you're not working , then nothing is being done....
i guess you're in remodeling ?????
my observation is that efficiency is over rated as a goal in remodeling
far better to concentrate on workflow... and sequencing, scheduling, material delivery, subs when needed
but if you want your business to function when you're not there then you need employees
and patience in finding and developoing those employees is important...... i keep hearing guys talk like building a group of employees is something that happens fast
well, that has not been my experience.... it took me years... and if i lost an employee tomorrow, i'd start the search again
face it....... how long can you do what you do ? with employees you can do it until you can't get out of bed in the morning anymore
i work long hours , but most of what i do concentrates on making my guys more productive, at the same time ..... i understand that we will never be "efficient" unless we start doing repetitive tasks..... at those, we're pretty "efficient"... but in the long term... we're remodelers..... problem solvers
where's the efficiency in that ?... it's not in having guys who can make perfect trim cuts everytime...
it's probably in having everyone know what level of quality we're trying to achieve.. so we know when something is accepta ble and when it isn't
it's easier to redo it immediately... than to come back the next day and rip out a half day's work.... ie: efficiency is relative
do you really think your competiton is more efficient than you ?
i bet they are not
anyways... jsut a thought about building an organizationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
good thoughts. I agree - that's why I chose remodeling. I'm more of a problem solver, figure it out'er, planner, organizer, handhold the worried client and sweep up at the end of day kind of construction worker. Keeping the guys going in a flow, that's my job.
Looking for a couple of good guys to train right now. (interviewed two good possibilities last week, hope they pan out) Let most of my old crew go, they did good on the 'one big project', but couldn't cut it on the myriad of little remodels out in the real world. Have an office girl who also does jobsite cleanup and is learning to mix mud, run tape, and clean drywall tools, and a young eager kid with no vehicle and no drivers license and not too much smarts and not too much focus, but a strong back and a good attitude, who hates being outworked by a girl.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Really good points. I am in remodeling but also do some new construction.
Problem solving is important to this job, as well as keeping guys efficient and the job moving. Dealing with employees is relatively new to me and for the most part has been fine, aside from the occasional personality conflicts. This last one that i had to let go should not have been hired in the first place, but i thought that i needed more help and that it would allow us to be more efficient. Not to mention he seemed to be the best out of some not so great candidates. Of course hind sight is 20/20.
I do agree, as I am learning, that finding and developing employees is important and does require patience. For now I am going to stick with what I have, but when it is time to bring another on board, I am going to go into the hiring process with a much different perspective in choosing the person. So much of how a job runs, or the work performed, or how "efficient" a crew works is a reflection of the lead. This is what was so frustrating, some people just are not cut out for this work. I suppose one of the challenges is in seeing the potential of a prospective but also in foreseeing the compatibility with your crew. Next time i may have the trial period for a week or two to see how the dynamics play out as well as their work.
Thanks for the input, makes me realize how much patience is needed and how the process is critical in the long term development of a business.
Mike is right: you can't go into a remodeling project and be thinking production....at least not in the same term that you would for new work.I've done enough of remodeling and enough of new work to know that very few people are suitable for both types of jobs. If your crew is great at new work, they will be average at remodeling. If they are great at remodeling, they will be average at new work. If you think you have hired the perfect candidate that is great at both, you probably are delusional and they really are average at either. If your crew is hired to be average at both jobs, they probably will be average at both jobs. Of course, many will take offense at this post, and they shouldn't. It's unrealistic to think that someone that remodels every day of their life for ten years would be as good as someone that does new construction every day of their lives for ten years. There are efficencies learned in every phase and there is no substitute for experience. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Not to mention he seemed to be the best out of some not so great candidates."You have fallen victim to "settling". We all do it. I eventually learned that when I setlled, I had to react fast when I discovered that I was wrong. Acting fast might mean pulling the trigger in ten minutes, or ten hours. One of the biggest mistakes that small contractors make is staying with the wrong guys, when they know they are wrong. Also, they fail to keep their hiring process in place all the time which puts them into a bind when they need help. The easiest time to hire and fire is when you aren't under pressure. Also, your trial period of "one week" is wrong. 90 days makes more sense. By day 90, you will know a lot more about your new guy. All the warts will be exposed. The most significant thing that I did, when I was hiring employees, was to institute a 6 year pay increase schedule. If someone made the 90 day cut, they entered into a pay system that rewarded them with benefits and scheduled pay raises based on time invested in our company. The guys knew they didn't have to quit me to get a raise: they knew what it was going to be on every 3 month anniversary. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I explained it to him and he gave it back to me, "I'll never read it."
maybe reading or comprehension or both don't come easy to him...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>maybe reading or comprehension or both don't come easy to him...<<
He's a fairly intelligent guy, lately instead of me telling him how to do something I make him read the instructions.
Worked out great on a bifold door until he put the knobs on the outside edge of a door panel. Instead of on the inside edge. You couldn't open the doors. Woods favorite carpenter
Being the leader with feelings is tough. It's always hard to find the balance between respect and fear. If they respect you they are more likely to follow along with your program. If they don't respect you then they'll just hug the milk jug until it goes bankrupt and runs dry. Then your left holding the bills and they skip on to the next gig. If they fear you then you can never trust them around your unatended coffee mug.
If humans didn't come with emotions imagine the sh!t they acomplish. That's the problem. Everyone has emotions and everyone is scared of hurting everyone's feelings. It's a hard balance to achieve. I wouldn't get rid of the help. Explain the numbers to them. "Look this is what you cost me an hour. This is what I'm making an hour. If B doesn't make a profit, then A is going to starve to death."
I don't envy anyone that has employees under them. It's freaking slavery. You are a slave to them instead of the other way around. Once I understood that the company needs to make maximum profit to keep everything afloat including the office staff and operating expenses I became a much better employee. And once I understood that the customer has to live with the results of what I do. Then I became a much better and neater worker. That's one thing that a lot of employees never soak into their heads. The customer has to look at what I did from now on. If it's a nick in a piece of trim or a joint that had to be caulked just a little too much and it sunk in then every time they look at it their going to think of me as a sh!t head. And all the work I do as sh!tty. Make sure you explain the million dollar caulk joint to the guy.
And unlike some others here. I wouldn't cut the guy loose. Evaluate him after a few more weeks. Maybe he just needed a few things pointed out to him. I know in the past it's helped me. I didn't agree for a little while but after I had time to soak it in it helped a lot.
Good luck.
"Woke up quick at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
I explained everything to him yesterday, at least where I stood and how payroll works.
I think he got it. Who knows. Woods favorite carpenter
mat,
Heres something you might think about trying. If you are thinking about going solo why not just start backing off on this guys hours.When you get to a point that you can finish a job by yourself just let him take a few days off without pay.This would ease your payroll plus give him a chance to "think" when he was sitting at home.
Going solo is tough, been there and done that, had to bid whole different kind of jobs than I do now with one part time employee.
My employee is part time because he is a fireman so working with me is his parttime job. He works for me on his off days. He is a good carpenter(he used to run his own framing crew) and I pay him about 5.00 hr. more than I could get someone else to work for but on days that I don't have anything to do he does'nt show up and I don't have to pay him.Kinda like a sub cept he is on my payroll.
Its kinda a trade off;...He makes more working for me than he could make at any other "part time" job cept, maybe working for himself.With me, he has no headaches.
This situation allows me to bid jobs that I would normally not bid by myself.
dug
I have been doing that, he didn't work all of Christmas week. I worked everyday but Christmas. He called everyday wondering what we'll be doing the next day.
I told him I was working, not him.
I have been sending him out on BS detail too. I usually do it.
I have a maintainace contract with an old folks home about 5 minutes from my house. They call everyweek with a list of things to do. Yesterday he had to move an old lady out of her apartment and into the home. Things like hanging pictures and christmas lights are other requests.
While he was doing that one of my regular customers called.
He put his snowmobile in a lake. Must have found a thin spot in the ice. It's only about 5' off shore. You can still see the track and rear end of the snowmobile. THats his job today, get the snowmobile out. Woods favorite carpenter
what type of work do you do, and more to the point ... are you sure you need helpers on site all the time?
especially at those low rates of progress ... I don't see how having either one with you is of very much good.
I've gone round and round with the full time helper idea.
thought I had it figured out years ago and was just about to make or trial run permanent when he flipped out and fired himself.
an old boss once told me he got one days work outta a one man crew.
1.5 days work outta a 2 man crew and hoped for but never really got 2.5 days work outta a 3 man crew. The more bodies you add ... the less percent full abled body U get.
I've found and seen that average to be pretty much true.
I'd start looking at ways to work solo and add temp help when need be.
I have a coupla other sole prop's I can rely on, and my biggest help is my mechanic.
best bud frok HS who likes to get out of his one man garage. He's both hard working and one of the strongest dudes around. He's also got limited carp skills and knows what he can and can't do.
what he can't do ... he doesn't break. Which is more than alot of carp helpers I've been around. best part is unless he's working one of his own little carpentry projects ... he's always available to leave his shop during the day and catch up on the mechanic work at night.
I'd suggest thinking about resources like that to utilize.
and spend an extra half hour at work and trim the closets yourself.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I do pretty much anything Jeff. Roofs, siding, framing, trim, kitchens, baths, etc..
I leave electrical and HVAC to the pros. Once in a while I have to do a little soldering in a kitchen or bath because I can't find a reliable plumber here.
The one guy that is staying for now was a hard worker, a real mule. But I think he got comfortable. And I let it happen. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Everyone has a bad day or even week.
He was tired of being a roofing sub, I knew he worked hard so I brought him on. I was solo at the time and had 4 houses to put siding on, a house full of windows, framing a few barns, and about 10 decks. So I needed a hand.
I should have finished up the bigger things with him then went solo again. That was over a year ago and he hasn't advanced much as a carpenter. Woods favorite carpenter
Another good post.
Damn this might just turn into a good thread yet.
I agree.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
they're all good threads...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
HMMMMMMM.
Not all.
But they all could be.
I can think of some real loser threads that should be on Martha Stewart's site, instead of here.
Sorry to disagree, But I'm sure that's what you'll find so intrigueing about my response. ;)
More good than bad here, all things concerned. Glad to be here - good and bad.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
some are better, much better, than others is all...
but they're all good....
don't be sorry... no need..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm curious why you gave them a raise, especially if they are not performing. Split them up, most likely too much jaw flapping among other issues.
Mike
I gave them one in hopes that it would motivate them a little to get a job done.
Well my plan failed miserably.
They can't finish a job for anything, so getting payroll around gets tight at times. I try to explain that fact to them, if nothing gets done I can't get paid. If I can't get paid then I have to smash the piggy bank to pay them. Woods favorite carpenter
If I can't get paid then I have to smash the piggy bank to pay them.
say instead....
If I can't get paid then I have to stop the bleeding and find some one that will pull with me.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
In one month thats the stance I am going to take.
I will slowly ease into it. I'm hoping he took me serious.
The balls in his court now, sink or swim time. Woods favorite carpenter
a week should be plenty...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It might only take a week, if nothing has changed in a week I may let him go then.
I just don't want to drop the change on him all at once. To where it feels like he is under pressure to perform. Then he'll be afraid to make a mistake and get even less done. Woods favorite carpenter
I see the method...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Not too crazy then?
Woods favorite carpenter
no...
in a week you'll know...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I once worked with a guy who felt sick to his stomach when he got saw dust on him. He was in the wrong trade. All day he would sit around, he was scare to climb anything. I wonder if he had a one story house?
It takes studs to build a house
here what you do, go into Mickey D or maybe some fancy hamburger joint, and order lunch. then watch for twenty minute while your burger set on the heat rack while two people talk about who they did last night ' Gurl, you dont know how........" "And then he........" "would you believe he had the nerve to......" " that beech......"
now think that you only have 9 minute left of lunch and you still have to go to the post office. once at the P.O. you see the post master and the lady in front of you " This picture was taken in HALL-WHY-HEEE" " Look at the........" " Gurl, that was........"
so,what do you do....
You grab them by the ears, move in a very rapid back and forth motion, preferable, stopping against a hard concrete surface, and say in a very aggressive loud voice " DO YOUR FRICKIN JOB"
If you're feeling real bad about letting them go, why not call some roofing contractors and find your guys jobs, before you give them the axe. That way it should be easier to explain why you have to make a change.
I have found him other jobs, last year I went to Tennessee twice to rebuild my cousins house.
While I was gone I found him a job with other contractors that I know needed a hand for a week.
I had a huge roof going on at the time (about 1,400 sq) I didn't want those two up there getting nothing done while I was gone, so I sent them out elsewhere. Woods favorite carpenter
Like you, I've had a couple of long term employees who did the basics real well; showed up every day on time with a postive attitude but then be unable to put out a sustained effort without direct supervision.
That works OK when the job calls for working directly with one good helper. In one instance I did installations for several years which required just two guys so I was happy to have that one reliable guy on my payroll.
Like you, I paid him more than the usual to keep his interest and his attitude at a high level. But it never translated to a desire for independent activity with him. He was just happier being dependent on someone else to keep him focused and moving in the right direction.
So when I needed to change the nature of my business in order to make a better profit, I had to let that man go. As he'd become dependent on me for much of his income I went out of my way to get him into the carpenter's union. He wasn't really a journeyman carpenter but he had other qualities which fit the union mold quite well.
I started out in new work with these guys.
We were really pumping the jobs out, after the contractors I was doing the work for went under with my money I had to switch back to remodeling.
I kept them with me hoping that they would make the change too. But they can't work in houses that the walls aren't plumb, floors aren't perfectly flat. You get my drift.
The one that is staying has promised a change, I truely hope that he does. He has a good attitude and makes it to work on time. Woods favorite carpenter
Twenty bucks an hour!Can I get in on that? I have no experience running a business,but I'd say your throwing away money.It could be I'm underpaid but I was just raised to $12 an hour and I can do every phase of the remodeling my company does unattended .The only thing I don't do is finish drywall.For that kind of money you could hire two even talented guys out of a vocational school.All of my friends at 18 would've been happy to start at $10 an hour knowing they could move up.But a guy married with kids is going to need more even if he's untalented .I don't understand why you should pay him more to do a seventeen yearold's work just because he's got more expenses.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Let 'em go. The sooner the better. And thank your lucky stars that you are the boss and have the authority to let them go. You just have to use it.
It's all their choice now, if they don't start performing better than they will be gone.
One is leaving soon for his other job, the other has to start working for his check.
Woods favorite carpenter
Matt - sorry I came on board so late - just read this thread tonight. Great thread, great info here, thanks for starting it.
I can really relate to a lot of the stuff covered in this thread, and I can really learn from a lot of the experiences related. I have 5 employees - but only two that are regular. The other three are there if I need them. One of the regulars is an office girl 3 days a week at $10/hr, and one is a remodeler at $15/hr.
I have gone around and round with the employee situation. This past year is the first time I've had any steady employees of my own since maybe 18 years ago, as I am trying to grow my business past the one-man show its been for years. At one point I had nine, when things were jamming before the sub-prime crash. I have done a lot of supervising, and consider myself good at it, maybe even gifted. On the good days I think that. On the bad days I just want to fire the whole lot of them. With the bad economy here, and the lean budgets I'm working with, and the employee headaches I've had, I've scaled back my estimation of my supervision/management skills.
I've been through a lot of guys this year. My regular remodeling guy is a good worker, versatile, has his own vehicle and tools. But he's a smoker, with terrible health. He's going to night school because he wants to get out of construction, has family problems, a granddaughter with major health issues, and he just seems constantly burned out. He's also a bit of a kiss-up (to me) and a back-stabber (to the other guys), which irritates the heck out of me. But since he mostly works alone, its working ok for now.
My other guys are good, but can't work unsupervised except on a small number of tasks. One of them is a good organizer/pusher, but I just don't have the volume of work to use him at what he's best at. Another is a good handyman/troubleshooter, but he's almost 70, his eyes are going bad, his concentration wanders, and his hip is in bad shape. Another is a good painter, but he slows down when work slows down, and that really piszes me off - I probably won't use him anymore.
Who to hire, how many to hire, how much to pay, how to organize and delegate, how to train, how much to train, how much progress to expect, how to be tough without being uncaring, how to motivate (or channel existing motivation) - its a hard job to fulfill.
I relate to everything you said, and the others too (even the stuff about stress), and you have my empathy. I struggle with this stuff. Daily.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
It's a tough situation for me.
I didn't issues with my other crew framing houses. Once in a while something would happen and they would start slacking off but for the most part it was easy compared to this.
I realized a while ago remodeling is a more of a science than new work. ANd some people can't do both. Thats the situation I am in now. Trying to get two guys who don't want to troubleshoot to be profitable in the field.
Maybe it will work out, maybe not. Woods favorite carpenter
I also used to have a framing crew. I was there pretty much all day, every day. And we worked at one location until finished. Worst case one guy would stay and do pickup while we snapped out a new one. The guys I have now were hired for a big job - lasted a year, renovating old apartments into new townhomes.
I have found that guys who did good work for me every day at the condo complex fell apart when I sent them out in the field to do essentially the same work at a different location, away from me and the rest of the crew. I don't know what the psychology is, since I have worked alone for most of my career, but a lot of guys who do good with a crew cannot work alone and be efficient.
I am looking for a talented and experienced guy with his own truck and tools (just the basics, I'll provide the rest) who is a legal citizen, cleancut enough so people aren't afraid to have him in their house, honest enough so I can trust him being in my customer's homes, can work alone, do what he's been told, and is planning on staying in the business.
Aren't we all? =)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I'm looking for the same Huck, it's not easy.
I had one guy a few years back that knew his stuff, could do jobs easily by himself with great results.
Problem was he didn't shave but once a year, didn't shower but once a month, smelled like PBR's every morning. He didn't last long.
I think their mentality is that their babysitters gone, when something gets screwed up theres no one to fix it for them.
Woods favorite carpenter
"I am looking for a talented and experienced guy with his own truck and tools (just the basics, I'll provide the rest) who is a legal citizen, cleancut enough so people aren't afraid to have him in their house, honest enough so I can trust him being in my customer's homes, can work alone, do what he's been told, and is planning on staying in the business. "Look in the mirror.That's the problem with trying to run a remodeling business. Yes, it can be done but it takes a tremendous toll on the lead carpenter if he also assumes the responsibilities of sales, marketing, administration, purchasing, personal manager, public relations, yadda, yadda, yadda.I know I can't handle all that. It's hard enough when those duties are shared by a competent team. Your best opportunity to make strides in delegating those areas of expertise was probably happening during that time you had the job renovating the old apartments into townhouses. When you have that one year job ahead of you, it gives you many of the ingredients you need to make a change. It would have been good to either hire in the office or make the decision to get into the office and turn the work over to a lead carpenter. Remodeling is a very difficult business; one that burns up good craftsmen in a very short time. When you hear the more experienced guys that are working alone talking about how they prefer it, that's when you know they've walked the walk and have decided that they know their limits and know what they love to do and have chosen a path that makes sense and quite often, it doesn't include employees. Employees alters the equations in a very significant way. The lure of making a bigger profit because of greater production quickly dissolves when the reality of their reduced production levels trump any of the gains you make with your greater interest and skills. Even if you hire a guy that has more skills, they usually are not interested in a high level of productivity. At least not in the remodeling/carpentry industry. Framing crews are able to make gains because most of the work is very simple minded, easy to delegate, easy to maintain quality control and it's easy to train new low paid hires to replace the (non-motivated) expensive skilled guys and still keep up production.Framers do not make good remodelers if they have worked exclusively in new work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Matt - just found this thread and read through it.
I had a similar dilema 8-9 years ago. I finished everything I was committed to that required a crew while only bidding work that I could do by myself or where I could easily sub the parts that needed more than one guy and knew I'd have a sub that could do it. And then I went solo. Then as time passed and I ran across people who were the right fit, I regrouped and started taking larger projects.
When I was in the solo mode, I contacted some of my competition who were in approximately the same position and often bidding the same work. I formed several alliances where we'd both bid the work independently and whoever got it would sub the other to do part of the project. Works well to this day.
http://grantlogan.net/
My mother once said to me, "Elwood" -- she always called me Elwood -- "Elwood, in this world you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." For years I tried smart. I recommend pleasant.
Elwood P. Dowde (James Stewart), "Harvey"
It sounds like a good idea, might have to give it a shot again.
I tried it once, but after my job was done they never called when they got one. All one sided. So I stopped doing that and kept a few guys on hoping to bring them along.
Woods favorite carpenter
Be careful or you'll wind up framing houses by yourself like this guy. I love his saw technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsEGTzKnlbs
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
Thats how I picture Forrest(McDesign) doing all of his work. Slow and steady wins the race I guess?
Christ cant the guy at least get himself a tool belt!
Doug
A tool belt? a ladder should be "borrowed" first.... and maybe some scrap for a horse or two...lol
That guy is going to take that $10 saw and cut his arm or leg off.
Next time he might want to try a ladder instead of sitting down on temporarily braced was to cut his wall to fit. Woods favorite carpenter
I figure there's a reason he's working alone. It might be. Everyone else is either off injured. Or they won't go near his crazy azz.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
I like working by myself so I dont have to put up with the others BS, cell phone every three minute, cutting corner and goofing off. I dont like to babysit, I got things to do too.
There just might be a reason, guy uses barrels and boards for scaffolding. Cuts while sitting on a temporary wall.
That and he only puts in about half of the studs needed in each wall. Probably has never passed an inspection yet.
In the video I thought he was going to hit himself in the face with that sledgehammer. He was choked up on it so far he might as well been using a rock. :)Woods favorite carpenter
I wonder if he does his own brick work? That must look good.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
Last I heard he was do brick work in Kentucky, somewhere outside Louisville. For some builder.
The builder has some woman as his right hand man. LOL
Woods favorite carpenter
Funny Ha Ha.
I figured out why he doesn't have a tool belt. His helper was using it for a tourniquet.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
That touniqet idea is a great one. Got me laughing.
Kind of looks like a mechanic in that jumpsuit.Woods favorite carpenter
It doesn't look right that's for sure. But then again neither does the stuff he's doing.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
That was a hilarious link Gunner! Thanks.I also found this one close by. These types of guys are the reason I never could hire on with anyone else. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt5sE3V97dY&feature=relatedThere was another scary one in there too. There's probably a lot more. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I found it painful to watch. I'm afraid to click on yours!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Jesus that scared the heck out of me for a second there. There's a bunch of them floating around if you look.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related
matt for years i had a hard time doing roofing And carpentry work, my roofer guys could not do carpentry and the carpenters hated roofing, After awhile i had a carpenter crew and a roofing crew but ran myself silly going back and forth, i gave up and do it by myself now, Im much happier and much less stress.
Well I can't believe I just read through this whole thread in one sitting..........
I have alot of thoughts on this topic and will not post them all right now.
I think the most important thing I have learned in the last 30 years is that you need to build a team. Money is important but a good team will nurture its players and make them want to perform. Not only perform but excell because they like being a member of the team.
I am very lucky to have my #1 guy as a friend. We met when I hired him 12 years ago and very quickly became friends. But... when we work I am the boss and he is happy to be # 2. He usually runs the crew while I deal with money, scheduling, engineering /design and politics.
I keep an "Open Door" policy. If anyone wants to talk about things my office door is open and I make an effort to show that my crew comes first ( I have thrown designers of my production floor ). We are a team. Communication is another complete conversation in itself. You have to inform your team what has to be done and how and why it has to be done by the deadline. Then they are like puppy dogs and just need to be rewarded. Usually beer and pizza ;). The best is "You did a great job on that".
Another funny little thing I learned is that most worthwhile tradesmen have no problem accepting constructive criticism if it is delivered positively with a genuine better alternative. Don't get in their face but in a buisnesslike way just have a sitdown and explain why it should not have been done that way. The last is a bit of a contradiction because I always encourage my team to think for themselves. I do tell them that in the end it really does not matter because it is all my fault anyway.
All that being said. The jobs I enjoy most now are the small ones that I can actually use my hammer for. I set the jobs up and then #1 and I do the work. We challenge one another to the point of why are we trying to make these old bodies go at this pace but I guess that it is sorta like old guys hockey. Building can be almost like a sport if you have the right attitude. I guess the point here is that production goals can be fun.
All for now. I might weigh in on some other issues later.
Of course this is all advice on the net so it must be true right?
On a hill by the harbour
I agree 100% on the "team"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I don't have much of a team going right now.
They show up and look for what ever is easiest to do, I take the rest.
Almost like an A team and a B team. I work solo almost all day and they help each other. Thats the way they get anything done, if not they don't get much done solo and most of its wrong.
I have one of them give me a hand when I am nailing up a prebuilt piece of crown I asembled on the floor or other things like that.
I like the fact they are willing to take theri time to get things right, problem is it usually isn't right.
Woods favorite carpenter
Hi Matt,
Not sure how old you are but...........
Sometimes a fresh start is the way to go. Back in the early 90s I was really fed up with being my own boss and just packed the gear away and took a job. It was a great job but that is another story. My point here is I took a few years to think it out while someone else was managing the cheque book.
When I went back on my own my head was clear and my trade was way stronger because that was what I had been focused on during my hiatus.
Being able to do the work is what we are all about. Doing the buisness is equally important if not more so but if you don't excell at your trade it makes it hard to do the buisness.
Just thoughts but you can't have a team with a leader who is confused.........
Don't take this the wrong way please but maybe it is you that needs work right now. Granted your 2 employees don't sound stellar. Get rid of the whole mess for awhile and come back with a clear head and start again. If you haven't accumulated a lot of overhead this is really quite easy and pleasant.
It took me alot of time to realize that it is much more fun to have someone else to be the boss. Only problem is it is not as profitable. Yes I am back to pulling my hair out but it is much more fun these days.
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 1/7/2008 5:58 am by Novy
Last year I got tired of doing it all, I was working 6 days a week. Bidding and paperwork on the seventh day.
So I hired a paperwork jockey. He is the man, construction management degree from Michigan State. He bids, sells, and banks. I work and he does the rest.
He talks insurance companies into fair agreements. He knows his stuff and I find myself more than fortunate to be teamed up with him. I make more money now with him on the payroll than I did without him.
He came with a long list of rich clients that keep me busier than I thought I could ever be.
BTW, I am 28 yrs old. Woods favorite carpenter
When I was 28 I worked 8 days a week
On a hill by the harbour
Sorry for slacking off.
Working 7 days a week has about destroyed what i used to call a marraige.
Now I look at it as us being room mates. I don't see her enough to feel married anymore. Woods favorite carpenter
OK let's get back to the problem.
Get rid of both of them and spend the time looking for some good candidates. As Jim says be ready to fire them before they get out of their truck.
Build a team and don't look back. My dad taught me a very important lesson at a very young age. Take care of your men first...........
With the current economic situ in Michigan and your contacts surely you can find some keepers. Don't forget that you have to market yourself to future hires. You need to learn to make good people want to work for you. It is not easy and it took me awhile.
Nowadays I can call some of the best carps in my trade to come and bail me out on their weekends off because they are part of the team.
Don't be afraid to look at some older guys with good experience. They might appear to move a bit slower but they work smart. My core crew of 4 including myself have a combined total of around 130 years experience and we have been told more than once that there is no way we can pull off a job on that timeline. Guess what?
Look for good attitude.
On a hill by the harbour
I am in the process of looking.
Everytime I talk with someone they have this list of demands. Can't work past 3pm, need Thursdays off, that kind of BS.
I haven't given up yet, far from it. Just getting frustrated.
Guys have kids, they don't want to pay for child care so they want to be done by 3.
The good ones want to set their schedule, thats not an option. Pretty much have been talking to prima donnas.
Lets see how this week goes. Woods favorite carpenter
Last year I got tired of doing it all, I was working 6 days a week. Bidding and paperwork on the seventh day.
So I hired a paperwork jockey. He is the man, construction management degree from Michigan State. He bids, sells, and banks. I work and he does the rest.
He talks insurance companies into fair agreements. He knows his stuff and I find myself more than fortunate to be teamed up with him. I make more money now with him on the payroll than I did without him.
Well, that's certainly an interesting twist! Sounds like a great arrangement. A couple words of caution from an old fart who's been around the block a few times: 1) Keep a close eye on the books and the money, a contractor friend lost everything when his accountant (who was also his friend) started dipping in the till, and 2) Take time from the biz to spend with the DW - no amount of work missed will ever cost as much, financially and emotionally, as a divorce. My wife (who has her own business) and I meet for lunch every day, and make it a point to spend evenings and weekends together.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Not sure how I could set aside all that time, and keep up with the job load.
The old lady works third shift so I barely see her. Once in a while during the week, and maybe a little on weekends. We fight much less this way. When we were on the same shift it wasn't alot of fun. Now it's like I am single again.
I would probably get buried by taking any time off, without any reliable help I find myself running way over schedule at times. So that extra day or two a week shows the HO I am putting the effort forward, things just haven't worked out.
SO far as the books go, I know what he bid jobs at. He deposits everything into my account, the only thing I see him taking is his check every other week. I keep a pretty close eye on whats going in to the account and whats going out.
It's not that I don't trust him, I'm just not ready to totally let go of everything he has taken on.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/7/2008 4:59 pm ET by MattSwanger
Take another look at those guys that can work till 3. If they can get there on time and do good work at fair prices, they are still an asset. It's called flex time.Congrats on hiring out the sales and admin. Keep an eye on it. Are you in Grand Rapids? I can't remember. How are you sourcing your new hires? News ads? CL ads? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was gonna add something along those lines.
just met with a potential GC to sub for.
will probably fall thru due to the fact that I can't work his usual schedule.
even though I'd not screw anyone up ... just be starting / stopping later than what he's used to.
the boy started kindergarden this year. works way better for all involved if I take him, and the wife watches or drops the baby at my Mom's.
so ... on the first day I dropped him off at school ... I realized my work schedule had changed ... and probably for the next coupla years.
I used to prefer 8 to 4.
would start earlier or later to accommodate the GC ... but 8 to 4 worked best for me.
I now drop the kid by 7:55 ... and stick around till class starts at 8:05.
so ... unless I'm working real close ... the earliest I can promise is 9.
On this particular job I told them I was thinking I could make it by 8:30 ...
but would have to do a morning rush test run.
guy said the neighbors wouldn't like anyone working up to 5 ...
so I left it at that and in his hands.
longer hours aren't a problem ...
but gotta get a 6 yr old comfy in class first.
he's the whole reason I get outta bed for work anyways ... so ...
I did just talk this over with the wife ... she can and would totally rework her work schedule if I absolutely positively had to start earlier ... but I don't see the need for the time being.
if someone calls with a huge job for top money but has to have me there every morning at 6am ... well money talks around this old house.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The guys that I have talked to that start at 3 want to get to work at 9 am. I have no issues with people taking care of their kids, but 5-6 hour days don't work for me.
I had them pull a snow mobile out of a lake Friday, yesterday they were digging fence posts. Today? Not sure yet, I got a call about replacing some sod a friend tore up with his snow plow. That might be all them again.
Yesterday was a quiet day on the job, got alot done solo.
I'm located about 1 hour south east of Grand Rapids. 1 hour south west of Lansing, 45 minutes west of Jackson, about 30 minutes east of Kalamazoo.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/8/2008 6:21 am ET by MattSwanger
we have a guy that has a wild eight year ols, so he likes to be home at 3 pm. But he comes in at 4 am and all the morning stuff is done by the time the crew get there at 7. best guy we ever had
If they wanted to be done at 3, and came it at 7 I would easily handle it.
That isn't the case I have run into now.
I used to be on site at 6 am, getting everything ready like you said. By 8 when everyone showed up mostly everything was ready to go. Tools were out, cords and hoses ready, generator up and running. That kind of stuff. I had the whole day planned out before anyone was there.
Woods favorite carpenter
you replace sod in the winter???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Snows all gone here now, two days at 60 degrees and our foot of snow has melted.
The sod is still laying next to the areas where the plows ripped them out.
They just have to put them back. Woods favorite carpenter
okay I see now..
was thinking in terms of winter here... lost count of how much snow has landed and it's still coming down....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
i stopped calling it winter after hearing about what you guys endure.
Maybe cold fall would be a better name for it. Woods favorite carpenter
no enduring involved...
just roll with it and enjoy...
just be smart enough to know when to stay in...
did I ever mention that winter is the best time of the year???
the name winter wonderland is very accurate..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I've heard you say that you like it.
I have got to go out in cold fall, need to keep bills paid. Don't have much of a savings account. Something always cleans it out.
Woods favorite carpenter
retire and work to stay busy....
after all....
who ever invented work didn't know about fishing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Here's how hiring was done "old school".Employer places "help wanted ad"Applicants respond and come to office or job site and fill out job application listing educational background and work history. Employer reviews stack of job applications and chooses the top 5 candidates and schedules interviews.Employer interviews applicants and asks questions to better determine knowledge & skills.Employer narrows selection down to 2-3 and then calls previous employers and "checks references".Job offer is made and new hire starts work on Monday.Have you tried the above process? How did it work for you?
Help wanted ads get the bottom of the barrrel anymore.
99% of them have drug and alcohol issues.
A friend just placed an ad, out of almost 100 people no one agreed to take a #### test. NO ONE. All of them wanted to go home and take it later. Only 40% had drivers liscenses. The rest were on parolle. No thanks.
I don't have that kind of time to sift through all that mess. I'll keep doing what I have been. Find some one some where, when I least expect it. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt, an ad can work, even in a labor market where everyones already working. Ads are expensive, so it's hard to say everything that needs to be said but they work if you speak to ONE PERSON, the person that you want to hire. Most help wanted ads are generic in nature because they adwriter is either the lady at the newspaper or the ad placer is trying to save money. They end up causing 100 people that aren't qualified to call. The better way is to spend a few bucks and say enough in the ad to eliminate the druggies. I think I have a better way though. Give this a try: Place a short, quick, cheap carpenter apprentice ad in your largest publication. Instead of giving them your phone number, tell them to check the Craigslist.com skilled trades section for lansing or Kalamzoo. In there, you get to write what you really want to say. You can write ten words or 1000 words. You get to spell out the way the job is going to happen and they can decide if they can meet your criteria.I checked those sections in CL and there is only one skilled trade job being posted. At least your ad won't dissapear off the screen like they do here in Austin! Do you want to let us help you write the ad? I'm pretty good at those kind of things... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Craiglist.orgView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I couldn't believe the results he got. He told them on the spot that they would have to take a drug test to be hired and not one agreed.
The craigslist idea has some merit. I might try that if I keep falling behind. If you'd like to email me some ideas through my profile it might help.
Woods favorite carpenter
Heres an ad that I ran when I still wasn't sure which direction I was heading here in Austin. Notice how I'm targetting the right person. It's not a crapshoot when they call me. My suggestion would be to post something like that in the various skilled trade sections of Craigslist.com (not org). Say exactly what you want. This helps them decide whether they are a good fit for what you are seeking. I had people willing to quit jobs and relocate from other cities calling. Unfortunately, my days of field training are over."I'm looking for a carpenter apprentice. Candidate will be expected to be enthusiastic, energetic and anxious to learn from a master carpenter.Please reply and tell me why I should want to work with you every day for the next four years and give you 1000 of my trade secrets.Please understand that I will only be interested in working along side serious, professionally minded people. That means I will never tolerate hangovers, arrogance, complacency, etc. If you are only interested in taking on this apprenticeship because you think you can make a few bucks, please don't respond. I love my trade, I love my craft and I won't waste my time trying to teach someone that doesn't love it as much as me.I mentioned EEO in the title because I truly don't care what your age, race, size, sexual preference, etc is. All I care about is doing a great job for my clients and I'm going to put the best candidate along side me to deliver what I've promised.So, if you're still with me at this paragraph, you might be a candidate to work with me. The work will be hard and the pay lousy....at first. As my apprentice, I will promise you regular raises and when you are done with my training, you will be able to walk onto any jobsite and demand full journeymens wages or more depending on your financial desires and drive.If you are interested in becoming a skilled craftsman, send me a brief bio of who, what, when, why you are. If I like what I'm reading, I'll call you and we can discuss this matter further.This opportunity is open for those that have zero experience, as well as for those that have some experience."
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's a great ad Jim.Most of the ones around here read: Journeyman carpenter wanted. All tools and truck required, $15/hr.Yeah, right...Actually, since they started charging to run help wanted ads here, these have mostly disappeared.- KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
craiglist.com is the same as craiglist.orgView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Thanks Huck. I was going to check that and forgot. I had a feeling that it would work either way. I like the Craigs ads because you can put everything you want into the ad and let everyone qualify themselves. The problem with that approach is that the conmen will also know the answers you want to hear. So, the employer still has to have their 15 minute drill alerts up.The secondary step to those ads are to do the initial interview. I have spent many, many nights doing 1/2 hour or more interviews. Its safe to say that I wasted at least six months of my life interviewing. It's a huge waste of time but it saves a lot more time in the long run. I didn't have the luxury of craigslist ads in my days and I don't know how that might have cut down on the riff raff. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah, I use 'em too. Local paper classifieds are expensive, only rarely go that route. Interviewing, hiring and firing - a lot of work to get a few good employees!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Thats a great ad. I like it.
I might copy that. If you don't mind.
Although I would tone down learning how to be a journeyman from me.
I have been doing this for what seems like a long time, not nearly as long as most here. And as long as I have been doing this I will always consider myself an apprentice as I learn almost every day.
I've actually got an email or two asking if I was tired of the BS and wanted some real help.
Although tempting I am trying to make what I have going work. The one guy that wanted to stay has started to make good on some of his promises. He knows any more nonsense and he's gone.
Woods favorite carpenter
Of course you can use it. That's why I posted it here. I think more importantly though is that you create your own, in your own words that say exactly what you feel and describe exactly what you want. Think about yourself if your were out there looking for work. Wouldn't you be leery about a lot of things going into a new situation with new guys and a new boss? An ad like that tells quality prospects something about you and it gives them a clue about the environment that they might end working in. An added bonus occurs if one of your current employees reads your ads. They see that your are looking for help, then see what kind of employee you want, then compare themselves to that. It can help you improve them, or move them. So, if you place an ad like this, don't be afraid to let your current employees find it. Tell them that if they have any friends interested in working to follow the instructions in the ad. Trust me, they will go read it themselves. One last thing. You should have been advertising consistently for a new apprentice if you have enough work and intend to stay in business. Think of your crew like a pro sports team. They constantly strive to upgrade. They bring in rookies every year and give them a tryout. The old vets see the new talent coming and going and realize that if they get complacent, they will be on the outside looking in. Realistically, you can never hire too many great workers. You'll always find something for them to do. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for posting that Blue, it was inspiring. I went back and found it tonight, and paraphrased it for an ad I just put in Craiglist (see below).
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a General Contractor looking for a remodeling/carpentry apprentice. Candidate will be expected to be healthy, strong, clean-cut, respectful, enthusiastic, energetic and anxious to learn. This is not a clean or a cush job, as this is not a cush business. You will likely get diry and tired. The work will always be hard and the pay at first will be lousy. Work might run the gamut from climbing in hot itchy attics, crawling under houses, working off ladders or scaffolding, sweeping construction debris, cleaning drywall tools, carrying heavy materials, and so forth. Please reply and tell me why you would want to work with me, often doing menial jobs, and sometimes difficult, potentially dangerous, mentally taxing, or physically demanding work, and why I should want to work with you, teaching you my hard-earned trade secrets from 30 years' accident-free experience. Please understand that I am only interested in working alongside serious, professionally minded people. That means I will never tolerate drug problems, hangovers, arrogance, complacency, laziness, sloppy work, excessive cell-phone talking, etc. If you are only interested in taking on this position because you think you can make a few bucks, please don't respond. I love my trade, and I won't waste my time trying to teach someone that doesn't love it as much as me. What I care about is craftsmanship, quality, and doing a great job for my clients - and it's my goal to put the best candidate alongside me to deliver the best that can be had. Hours will be part-time flexible at first, leading into a full-time position, and eventually a career, for the right person. So, if you're still interested at this point, you might be a candidate for this position. As my apprentice, I will promise you regular raises if you really stick with my training and show that you are progressing. If you stick with me long enough, and pay attention, and get tooled up with the right tools and the right vehicle, you will be able to make a good living in a field that is always in demand in every city and every economy. If you are interested in becoming a skilled craftsman, send me a brief write-up of who you are and why you want this job. If I like what I'm reading, I'll call you and we can discuss this matter further. This opportunity is open for those that have zero experience, as well as for those that have some remodeling, handyman, or construction experience. Experience matters less than attitude. I found this on the internet, and it pretty well sums up what will dictate who succeeds in this job, and in this business. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck, I think you will get the type of person you are seeking. If they read all that, then check your link...they are interested! That's the key...find people interested in a career....not just a job! I liked your link with the app. That's brilliant. I had to laugh a bit about all the safety talk though...then seeing all you guys with bare eyes! Yikes! That scares me as much as a table saw...I didn't look at all the pics...there's too many. I'd suggest getting each section down to five or ten pics with a sub folder or direction to the balance of those pics. I also noticed that cute little block of wood with the angles...I forget what you call that. I would have loved that when I was studying those principles in my early days. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
dont work them together work them seperateley so they cant share the b;ame also you might consider letting them read your posting
Just the ramblings of a lunatic here, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I've been doing this deal since '85, and and have seen and lived thru a bunch of the #### you describe.
In reading your posts, I've come to believe that you and I are very similar creatures. At 17 you couldn't keep me away from trade journals, job sites, or PBS, where I found "heros" like Norm Abram, Tom Silva, Roy Underhill, and the like. I was consumed with all things construction. A lot of times I still am.
Point is, I was/am PASSIONATE about what we do. Simple as that. I'd do this stuff for free most days if I could afford to. Like you also, $$$ is not the driving force in my life today, nor will it ever be. I live simply so I can keep that attitude.
Back to that passion. YOU CANNOT TEACH IT! You've got it or you don't. For me it comes from the sense of pride that comes from turning chicken s##t into chicken salad, from creating something where there is nothing, from erecting a structure that will hopefully stand the test of time and be enjoyed by generations to come. Am I overly idealistic? Probably, but I'll bear that cross happily.
The other thing I've noticed about employees is that most really don't care because they've got nothing at stake. NOBODY has at much at stake as the business owners. Employees don't have to worry about whether or not there's 5k in the acct. every Fri. to make payroll, don't care if YOUR phone rings at 2 am for a leak, aren't concerned with timelines, deadlines, schedules, financing, insurance, reputations, etc.
The sad truth is, in MY experience, most just want the check--and will do as little as possible to get it. Sure there's exceptions. Look at Chuck and Roy that work for Smith--different mentality there. Mike's damn lucky to have 'em and he knows it. There's others here as well w/ good guys, but take a look at all the successful solo acts on BT. Almost to a man, they'll echo the same sentiment, "got tired of the BS from employees".
No advise here Matt, just an over-abundance of opinion. Keep looking or find some good subs. I'll be keeping a good thought for you.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Those are great points David, sums up alot of what is going on.
I love what I do for a living, like you it's not the money that I do it for. If it was all about money, I would have picked a different career. And again you can't teach passion for what being good at this job takes.
I have been working solo for the last 3 days and it has been very nice. Alot less stress than I am used to. I don't think I asked anyone WTF in three days, probably a record for the current tribe I've got.
But I need at least one other guy that I can count on, the one I have left is far from that. And jobs keep piling up by the day. My salesman has been on a rampage lately.
I'll keep looking, thats for sure. I know I have had alot of bad luck, so I'll see what happens.
Woods favorite carpenter
After I finished school and re-entered the work arena in May '05, I spent the entire next year remodeling my brother's home end-to-end. Completely solo. Posted the whole job in several photo threads. Swore I'd never hire labor again.
Phone starts ringing, all of a sudden I've got more than I can handle by myself. Went back on my self-promise and hire a 24 y.o. Latino kid from TX. Kid's had a desk job his entire working life; next to worthless on a const. site.
Can't read a rule half the time, can't cut straight (at least until Sphere flipped us his old SCMS), doesn't understand the terminology of anything const. related, and for the pittance I pay him I can't hardly expect him to. For xx dollars a day it's worth it just to never have to set-up/tear-down, go to the truck, walk 10 feet to get my smokes or phone, etc.
Slowest frigging learner I've ever had, posesses nearly no mechanical aptitude, and I've come close to running him off a time or two. After reading this thread, I feel blessed that he'll be there tomorrow--on time, not hungover, not needing to cut out early, etc.
How this relates to your dilemma, I don't know, but it sure did make me think and be a little more appreciative of what I've got, and focus somewhat less on what I don't.
Thanks Bud.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
So I guess that means he will be getting a raise right ?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I've considered it a couple of times. Oddly enough for the same reason that Matt stated--motivation. Just not sure if it would work. I think you can send a mixed message.
"Hey, I just got a raise--must be really doing good work"
How do you explain that's not the case at all; but "I WANT you to try to do better"
IF he sticks it out through the heat of the summer (and the heat of my impatience), he's probably looking at a 30% increase. By then he'll have earned it.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Might try 5% now and tell him the expectations for the future, both in output and reward.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
It won't help. Before I made the change, I had guys that worked till they met their dollar needs. If I paid them 10 per hour and they need 200, they'd work 20 hours. If I raised them to $20 per hour as an incentive, they'd only work 10 hours per week. Remember...they only needed $200 per week to survive and have beer money. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
framersView Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
seems you are the norm any more...
99240.9
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I read that, I don't leave my guys on site alone though.
When I have to leave they have to leave. Which really breaks their hearts.
They haven't displayed what it takes to work unsupervised and produce what our customers look for. Woods favorite carpenter
I'll bet it does...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
if one of these fit...
keep looking...
1. "Since my last report, this employee has reached rock-bottom and has started to dig."
2. "I would not allow this employee to breed."
3. "This employee is really not so much of a has-been, but more of a definite won't be."
4. "Works well when under constant supervision and cornered like a rat in a trap."
5. "When he opens his mouth, it seems that it is only to change feet."
6. "This young lady has delusions of adequacy."
7. "He sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to achieve them."
8. "This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot."
9. "This employee should go far, and the sooner he starts the better."
10. "Got a full 6-pack, but lacks the plastic thingy to hold it all together."
11. "A gross ignoramus - 144 times worse than an ordinary ignoramus."
12. "He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier."
14. "I would like to go hunting with him sometime."
15. "He's been working with glue too much."
16. "He would argue with a signpost."
17. "He brings a lot of joy whenever he leaves the room."
18. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell."
19. "If you see two people talking and one looks bored, he's the other one."
20. "A photographic memory but with the lens cover glued on."
21. "A prime candidate for natural de-selection."
22. "Donated his brain to science before he was done using it."
23. "Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming."
24. "He's got two brains cells, one is lost and the other is out looking for it."
25. "If he were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week."
26. "If you give him a penny for his thoughts, you'd get change."
27. "If you stand close enough to him, you can hear the ocean."
28. "It's hard to believe he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm."
29. "One neuron short of a synapse."
30. "Some drink from the fountain of knowledge; he only gargled."
31. "Takes him 2 hours to watch 60-minutes."
32. "The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead. "
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Golf clap
That is being saved
On a hill by the harbour
I knew there was a problem with golf...
you can get the clap from it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
you know some times its better just to fire all the un happy people..two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
Ever notice that golf spelled backwards is flog?
and ya use balls and clubs to play golf... er flog...
so does that mean that you get to flog yur balls with a club when ya play????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Funny stuff there Imerc, I needed that.
I have been blind sided with something I never seen coming. Words can't describe how I am feeling right now.
So a little humor helped, thanks. Woods favorite carpenter