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End nail joist, add hanger–stronger?

Danno | Posted in Construction Techniques on August 25, 2008 04:49am

Okay, now the argument I’m facing is the chief says end nailing the ceiling joist through the first board of a header over a new door opening (between old nuilding and new addition) is the way to do it. After end nailing, add 1/2″ plywood and the other board of the header, than add the joist hanger and nail to the header.

I say this is a convoluted way of doing it, I have never seen it done that way, and that a joist hanger, by itself without end nailing through the header into the joist, with the proper kind and number of hanger nails is perfectly adequate.

Chief is arguing that the end nails will add all that much more strength if the joist is restrined from backing out, so the nails are acting strictly in shear. While I understand this and tend to agree that they add some strength, I have never heard of any worries about a joist hanger failing.

I just think the nuisance of building the header in place one piece at a time and end nailing the joist part way through the header construction process wastes time. I think it would be better to construct the header on the deck, put it in place and nail it to the king and jack studs, then nail on the joist hanger to joist and header would be the way to do it. In new construction, we would nail the header to the kings and jacks and then insert it into the wall, but this is where we are cutting a doorway through between the old building and the new addition. A truss and its bottom chord (joist) (although my memory is fuzzy–they may be separate members–bottom chord and separate 2×8 (10?) ceiling joist) land over the proposed doorway.

What do you all think? I guess I can do it the Mickey Mouse way if you think it would be that much better, but I cannot believe that “real” builders would monkey around doing it that way!

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  1. Piffin | Aug 25, 2008 05:43am | #1

    the end nails don't add much if anything to the properly installed joist hanger, but I wouldn't do anything more about it than roll my eyes and make sure the joist hanger had all the needed nails in it.

    Someday you get to be Chief too Li'l Injun

     

     

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  2. Framer | Aug 25, 2008 05:43am | #2

    Danno,

    That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of before. Who is Chief anyway?

    Joe Carola
    1. Danno | Aug 25, 2008 02:57pm | #3

      The guy who is heading up the project is from my church and he is also on the Board of the homeless shelter. The first day I came on the job site and he was taking a long time to cut boards with a circular saw (no chop saw on site--he said he had one at home but it was too heavy to move (I should have volunteered to get it for him)). I showed him how to use a speed square to cut. (I was taught by the framer I learned from to just look at the shoe of the saw and make it visually square to the board edge, but I figured this may be too inaccurate for cutting studs.) I ended up cutting all the studs.

      Later I heard him talk about working with a builder, so I asked him and apologized for giving him advice he probably didn't need (since I hate it when people do that to me--assume I know less than nothing--but then the other day he took my chalk line and bumped it on the board before pulling the line and said, "You know why I did that?" I nodded, (I just thump it with the heal of my hand), but he explained anyway. ANyway, he says he did work for a builder doing this and that but a long time ago. So pretty vague--I don't really know what his credentials are, but I've argued round and round with him on just about every aspect of this job.

      Like I've said, I don't care if he wants to do everything the hard way (like cut 4-6' boards at angles using a table saw and needing someone to support the end of the board because the saw has such a small table), but when he and another guy I'll be working with today decided that there is no need for me to get a nailgun to nail the four squares of shingles on a gambrel roof, it makes me mad. I think it would be pretty difficult to slap a shingle up on the lower roof, which is sloped 20/12 (although the chief insists it's 10/12, but that is impossible because the roof is way more than a 45 degree angle--closer to vertical) and hold it in place while I get a nail in it using a hammer!

      He saw no need for nailguns in the framing, but than God another guy borrowed one from his son--otherwise we'd still be nailing the trusses together. Two other guys and I did frame the walls by hand nailing. One of them was a retired Dow union carpenter who was supposed to plumb the walls. After we nailed the trusses, we discover the reason the trusses seem to be getting longer is that one wall is an inch and a half in at the corner.

      it's the amatuer hour, only it's days, not hours! I cannot convince anyone (except a guy who helped for a couple days and is now on vacation--he has worked a lot with Habitat) that I know a little about carpentry. I worked with a framer for a year and a half in my late 40's and we did lots of roofs--even shingled them. I have since then worked for a remodeler for about 8 years. I didn't used to tell anyone about my experience, but on this job I let everyone know--but it made no difference. They all think becasue they have fixed a few houses on the Gulf Coast after Katrina that they are builders. I have gone down after to do drywall (usually finishing it) and their framing isn;t plumb or lever, thay don't bother with nailers for the drywall and if they have hung the drywall, there are inch to inch and a half gaps, corners broken off, holes cut oversized and wiring nicked.

      Well, sorry to go on, but it is very frustrating. I will last this week out because the chief goes in for surgery today and I figured someone better get this place closed in before winter! But after the shingles are on and the doorway cut through, and the ceiling drywall hung, I think I'll have to leave.

      Turns out my next big (supposed to be a month long window replacement and siding job) was canceled because the guy I sub under p...d off the customer and he cancelled the job. So I'll have to find some other mischief to get into--maybe write my memoirs, "The Three Stooges and Me; My Adventures in Foin Homebuilding."

      1. Jim_Allen | Aug 25, 2008 03:57pm | #4

        I wish you'd keep all these stories in the same folder. You missed out on creating a classic.

        1. Danno | Aug 26, 2008 01:24am | #6

          Yeah, I guess this would make a good back inside cover story for FHB!

          Well, I survived the day. Started out miserably:

          I went to the building dept. and talke to the BI; just to ask him what size header I should use for putting a 32" door in the bearing wall--he was familiar with the place. He said, "I'd say no smaller than a double 2x8." I thanked him, as that is what I felt should go in there. I had also asked if it mattered whether it picked up one of two of the truss ends and he said "no".

          Get to the job site and Ted is already there. He and I talk and he disagrees with everything except that there is no reason we cannot move the door inward 18" from the adjacent wall like the woman who runs the place wanted. Then we parted ways. He said no joist hangers needed, just put a double 2x6 header under the ceiling joist that would land near the center of the header. The other two could be picked up by putting studs under them and cripples under the header.

          I protested that this lowered the door considerably. So what. was the reply. By that time, both Lois, tha lady who runs things and Ron were there. Lois didn't care about anything except was happy that the door was in the 18" she had asked for (so when it is opened part way, it blocks an opening at the end of a partition--her place, not for me to question.) We all agreed that a 32" door would be better than a 30" (which is what Kent had written on the wall (on one side, on the other, 32").

          So then Ron agreed with Ted and then it was all over for me. Then ended up putting in a double 2x4 header and made the door way something over 6'-2" because I could walk through without ducking. But it is not 6'-8", which is what I thought would be minimum by code. They felt that code was for schmucks or losers or something. I gave up. Let them work on that while I set up scaffold for shingling. I put up drip edge and flashing on one side of building and another guy brought a framing nailer and then cut tabs off for my starter. I was pleasantly surprised when he didn't give me a lot of guff about just turning the shingles upside down.

          Anyway, most of the rest of the day when fairly well, but I'll tell you, weaving the valley on a gambrel roof is a royal PITA!!! But we get double coverage, so I went with it. Kent was supposed to leave a big caulk gun so we could use the big tubes of caulk he bought, but he hadn't, so at 4 when we really needed to tar the shingles at the break and in the upper valleys, we cleaned up and called it a day.

          The Board President even talked to me and got the drywall picked up and delivered! That was so nice not having to interrupt my work to go on a four-sheet drywall run!

          Tomorrow only Ted will be there to help me. I see constant battles. Ron helped me shingle and didn't argue about it--admitted he knew nothing about it. Also a pleasant surprise. But Ted will argue about anything, knowledgable or not.

          I am hoping that I will carry bundles and he will break them open and feed me while I nail. Ron had great trouble running the gun and shooting just one nail at a time and shooting them somewhat straight. I would prefer running the gun because I've done it before and know the technique.

          Am hoping to get the roof on by day's end tomorrow and then one of the resident advisors of the shelter who told me he has 20 plus years of drywall experience can drywall the place. The women were pretty eager top get the place opened up again and were actually doing business after we cut the doorway through!

          1. reinvent | Aug 26, 2008 01:33am | #7

            "Yeah, I guess this would make a good back inside cover story for FHB!"Unless it is printed on microfiche it wont fit.

          2. Danno | Aug 26, 2008 01:55am | #8

            Yeah, it is way too long.

            One thing I forgot to mention is the main reason the two fought me on the header was that they thought joist hangers were no good--weak. I tried to tell them that they are used all the time, but no go. I also mentioned that I had even bought joist hanger nails (many people just use roofing nails) to nail them. Still refused to use them, so I gave up. They also wanted to keep the wall's bottom plate running across the doorway, but I did manage somehow to convice them to cut and remove it. One for five or six ain't bad, I suppose.

          3. reinvent | Aug 26, 2008 01:58am | #9

            Good thing these guys are not building a highway over pass.

          4. Jim_Allen | Aug 26, 2008 02:47am | #10

            Too funny! I don't think I'd argue with the guy tomorrow. I'd start to do it my way. When he protested, I'd turn the tool over to him and in one sentence tell him "Okay, if you want it done that way, have at it." I'd then start humping him the shingles without comment. If he handed the gun back to me and agreed to shut the heck up, I'd take it back.

          5. Danno | Aug 26, 2008 04:48am | #11

            I had to walk away while they did the door opening and header today. I did cut the opening through the old interior surface (1/2" plywood, painted white!).

            My main problem now its that I think by tomorrow or Wednesday the shingles will be on, but the gable end above the wall is only covered by a big tarp and they want to start drywalling.  Maybe I can use my powers of persuasion to get someone to buy some sheathing! Seems odd to me that someone decided we are ready to build (and, indeed, as I mentioned, the women who run the clothing store want us to finish with construction so they can re-open the place), yet we don't have the materials necessary to do the job. It's one thing to be lacking paint for the interior, for example, but it is something else to have to scrounge for sheathing! I used the last of it tonight on the walls so people can't just walk into the place and steal stuff.

      2. frammer52 | Aug 25, 2008 06:59pm | #5

        Danno, I will put my 2 cents in her, what's taking so long?>G<

        Ps I will second framer on this. as I shake my head.

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