Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Jun 07, 2005 09:19pm | #1

   From what I've read, it's not a state by state decision but rather an EPA region by region decision based on meeting mandatory federal air quality standards.              

   While this sounds like a noble effort, air pollution from hydrocarbons from paint solvent, poly, and varnish  is very small, in the big picture.Local painters near me have already hoarded large quantities of oil paint and as of Jan 1 paint manufacturers have stopped producing it. Prolly the same will happen to polyurethane etc. What can ya do?

    

1. 
   brian_pontolilo | Jun 07, 2005 11:54pm | #2

   Actually, it is a state by state decision and it relates to VOC levels and air quality laws. VOC regs have already outlawed some paints, stains, caulks and sealants in a few states including California and New York. 

   (This next part comes from my memory of a conversation I had while researching an article on caulks and sealants. I'm not sure who to attribute the info to.)

   An exception is made for products with no low-VOC competition. For example, Lexel's clear sealant does not meet the VOC regs in California, but because it is a one-of-a-kind product, the state allows it.

   Hope this helps,

    

   BP

1. 
   bigbob2 | Jun 08, 2005 07:02pm | #3

   thanks for your input, but I'm not sure what it is supposed to help.!!  I'd like to know what builders are going to do about, say,... finishing a wood floor!  Now that we won't be able to use Polyurethane with oil-based solvents, what are we going to do?  paint the floors?  or just use pre-finished product?  water borne emulsions are nowhere near as tough.  I think this is going to be a big issue in years to come for builders and homeowners.  I think maybe I'll go buy a few "gallons" of polyurethane.   I just loaded up on some Polyurenthane floor enamel that was 50% off at the local Sherwin Williams.  No more of it they said!  I don't think we have heard the last of this......

1. 
   Adrian | Jun 08, 2005 07:17pm | #4

   The same issues are going on around lacquers and the industrial sprayed finishes.....what I'm told is that ALL the R&D being done is around waterbornes, UV, and other low-VOC finishes, the solvent-based finishes are history. Most of the spray finishes I use are already 'low-VOC' formulations, but from what I know those formulations were just to stick a finger in the dike until the waterbornes etc were ready.....already there have been a couple of extensions granted because the low/no VOC finishes weren't quite there yet.

   The newer waterbornes are way better than previous generations, and the UV finishes are really amazing.....technology to apply them is becoming much less expensive too......not that you're going to be able to do that single floor anytime soon.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   brian_pontolilo | Jun 08, 2005 09:00pm | #6

   I don't have hardwood floors, so I can't speak from experience. But I have talked about this topic with many professionals and I think it is a myth that oil-based poly (actually all oil-based products) are more durable than water-based.  For every pro that swears by oil-based products another prefers water-based. For one thing, oil cures harder which may be good for average foot traffic, but the corner of a dropped can of baked beans will easily crack the finish. A water-based finish would absorb the shock. Likewise, water-based products endure more wood movement without cracking. Water-based finished also don't darken or yellow the wood--not a durability issue, but valuable in many instances. And your clients will be happy that their house doesn't stink of toxic fumes and that after you put two coats of water-based finish down in one day, they will be able to walk on their floors that evening.

   Waxes are also a durable option that for some reason I don't think it are going anywhere.

   I'm also curious if you know for sure that most pre-finished flooring is finished with oil? (I don't know the answer)

   Cheers,

   BP

1. 
   Adrian | Jun 08, 2005 09:31pm | #7

   Most pre-finished flooring is finished with a UV curing finish, usually waterbased ones (and some, like many standard brushable waterbornes, use the polyurethane resin....so it's not like poly is going away, far from it); I've seen it being done, and I know or work with several flooring manufacturers. UV has all kinds of advantages....virtually 100% transfer efficiency, excellent properties, no shrinkage (unlike every other kind of finish)......fully cured in seconds, no VOC's or virtually none, and flat lines are so efficient at putting it on (although they are expensive to install), that they're extremely cost-efficient.

   UV, liquid or powder coating, is starting to become more important in cabinetry etc also.....definitely going to be huge there. It's at the point now where if a company is thinking about putting in a second spray booth, they should also be evaluating UV.

   cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

   Edited 6/8/2005 2:32 pm ET by Adrian

2. 
   bigbob2 | Jun 08, 2005 09:46pm | #8

   actually, there was an excellent discussion in a recent issue of a competitor's magazine, (I won't mention the name unless asked!!) of the reasons Polyurenthane resin will not be included in the prefinished configuration of UV preparation.  The columnist explained how polyurethane is stronger and more durable than its cousin, the waterborn finish, which is actually an emulsion, and thus not as strong.  I DO hope that new generations of this product will increase the durability and toughness, and yes, it's nice not to have the smell.  But given a material decrease in longevity of the finish, I think homeowners will tolerate that smell.  Just my opinion, with no evidence behind it!

3. 
   jimblodgett | Jun 08, 2005 11:39pm | #9

   What does "UV" stand for? 

4. 
   Sphere | Jun 08, 2005 11:47pm | #10

   The light most humans can't see...Ultra Violet.  Notice I didn't say ALL humans, some of us are "special"...LOL  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.

5. 
   jimblodgett | Jun 08, 2005 11:55pm | #11

   What makes a finish "UV"? 

6. 
   Sphere | Jun 09, 2005 12:10am | #12

   There are actually 2 factors . Either a finish is UV curing or it is UV resistant. A spar varnish has UV inhibitors to protect the epoxy in boat fabrication, which can and will degrade in extreme exposure to UV LIGHT. UV light also causes Cherry and some other woods to change hue noticably. It also cause US to change hue.

   UV cured finishes are a factory applied copolymer that are reactive in the manner in which they bond or crosslink to form a solid from a liquid.

   Ther are also glues and finishes that are RF cured, that is radio frequency ( think Microwave) .

   A lot of stains are "photochemically reactive" In other words, with out a UV ( sunscreen) blocker, they will fade.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Time, time, time look what's become of us..Time is all we have, spend it wisely with fervor..dance for no reason, love with out plans and live without worries..we all can.

7. 
   storme | Jun 09, 2005 02:05am | #13

   More on wood finishes and UV damage to wood:http://www.prostaffpainting.com/protecting.htm

8. 
   Adrian | Jun 09, 2005 02:09am | #14

   I don't know that article, but I do know lots of sprayed waterborne lacquers that are using polyurethane resins (there are only two major resins being used, urethanes or polyurethane and acrylic, and they are sometimes blended....here's a link to a discussion on it http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Waterborne_lacquer_and_polyurethane.html), and many of the UV curing finishes being used in industry right now are certainly using polyurethane resins in the formulations....google on UV curing finishes and you will find a whole range, with different solvents, resins, etc. The UV finishes I'm talking about are applied with roller or curtain coaters, and cure in a flash under super powerful ultra violet lamps, in industrial settings....I'm not talking about anything that can be applied by a tradesman in residential application, just so we're on the same page.

    cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

9. 
   jimblodgett | Jun 09, 2005 04:56pm | #15

   Are they expecting that to change?  Is it evolving to where these UV finishes will be usable by the individual or a small father and son type operation?  Do these things build in coats, or burn together like lacquers, or what? 

10. 
    BillHartmann | Jun 09, 2005 05:07pm | #16

    You have probably had UV cured products used on yourself.Dentist have used them for a long time. Every had a filling where the stuck in a plastic tube that had a blue glow and held it for 30 seconds. That was a UV curve.While you might see somekind of patch kit that will treat a small area (few square inches) I don't think that there will every be any kind of system for general purpose finishing.It would take too much UV light and be hard to control where it goes so that it does to damage to other surfaces and PEOPLE.

11. 
    fingers | Jun 10, 2005 01:21am | #21

    Just a small clarification.  Although UV lights were used at one time in dentistry for light curing composites, most went to white lights 17 or 18 years ago.  Within the last four or five years the rage has been to use a much more powerful light to cure the compostie resin quicker (five to ten seconds).  I think the newest ones use L.E.D.s to produce the light.  Not sure if it's full spectrum or not.

12. 
    PhillGiles | Jun 09, 2005 06:01pm | #17

    Some some demos for cabinet work. In one they use a strobe that flashes every 10 seconds, in the other, they had what looked like a big work-light with a sun-tannig bulb in it. At another company, they literally had a warming bridge (with IR's switched out for UV's) from a restaurant with a conveyor running under it. The sun-tanning solution takes over-night to harden at 20'..
    Phill Giles
    The Unionville Woodwright
    Unionville, Ontario

13. 
    Adrian | Jun 09, 2005 06:08pm | #18

    Could a small shop set up to finish components? Yes. Definitely. But you have to finish or prefinish compnonets, then assemble them....I don't it will ever get to the point of being able to cure a finish over an installed floor or anything like that.

    I've seen one small machine in operation at the shows in Germany (tried and can't get the website to load)....about the length of a pickup, in three small modules, kind of looks like a space buggy......for UV coating cabinet doors;  it was a powder coating line. Put it in one end, couple of minutes later it comes out the other end completely done....in this case, no second or third coats, and it could do fancy finishes. Took the place of a $500,000 flatline.

    In Europe, the technology is getting down to the level of the three person shop, maybe smaller.....I don't know how many shops are at that level, but some are based on case studies I've read, and many more are getting into it.

    Depending on the application, it can be done in one thick coat (where surface quality isn't super important), or two or several thinner coats....in which case one technique is to 'gel' but not fully cure the first coat (this is with liquid coatings now).....apply a second coat.....then give it the full lights to fully cure it (I have a friend with a small line he bought used just up the road....I'm no electrician, but they describe each lamp as being 75 hp...??....anyway, that's what they say....powerful lamps). The liquids cure really fast; the powders take a little longer (two minutes +, I guess because they have to liquify and flow out.

    Here's a decent little article on UV for furniture (in large production settings) http://www.radtech.org/MarApr04RR_UVCoatingWood.pdf

    Poke around on the net; this is interesting stuff....very environmentally friendly, very good properties, very cost-effective IF you have a certain level of production. And again, this is an area where there is a huge amount of development going on.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

14. 
    jazzdogg | Jun 09, 2005 08:25pm | #19

    "Water-based finished also don't darken or yellow the wood--not a durability issue, but valuable in many instances."

    Brian,

    Particularly valuable over woods that you want to stay "white." However, because  water-borne finishes are bluish/clear, I am often disappointed by the "cold" appearance of WB on woods like walnut - because they lack of ambering we have become accustomed to when using oil-based products.

    To overcome this "shortcoming," I apply dewaxed shellac, selecting a grade (e.g., orange, buttonlac, seedlac, ruby, garnet, sticklac) that provides the coloration I'm after before I apply the WB surface film.

    Does a good job of approximating the warm appearance of an oil-based finish.

     -Jazzdogg-

    Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

15. 
    billyg | Jun 10, 2005 12:42am | #20

    Plus when you use the shellac base coat it doesn't raise the grain like the WB poly.

    Billy

2. 
   rez | Jun 08, 2005 07:22pm | #5

   Someday you'll be able to procur it thru the same guys that sell pot, crack, CCA and new 3 gallon flush toilets.

   A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid