I’m building a mudroom in a 70-year-old house. For the entry door, I want a half-lite, frame-and-panel style, with 9 lites of insulating glass on top — no ersatz leading, stained glass, bevels, or other nonsense.
I was hoping to find a high R-value door with wood veneer, interior and exterior wood muntins, and grids between the glass panes. (In other words, construction virtually identical to that of the Pella French doors leading to my deck. Does Pella offer this? If only…)
What I am actually finding is fiberglass doors with appalling wood grain, or smooth skin, which is not bad (we’ll paint the door in any case), but even those still have awful, skimpy wood-grain moldings. Virtually nobody has grids between the glass panes, and those that do are colored white and so skinny as to be more distracting than not.
I found a couple of solid wood doors with true divided lites, and they are the leading candidates at this point, even though they cost 2x-3x the fiberglass models, because the latter are so atrocious. (We’ll use this entry 90% of the time, and I don’t want to be all uglied out every time I come home.)
I’m hoping someone here can direct me to a better-insulating yet attractive door along the lines I’ve described.
Alternately, I had thought of getting a fiberglass model, ditching the attached moldings, and putting in my own. I even thought of getting my own insulating glass with an internal grid. The door salesman was completely dismissive of this, but I can’t think of a reason it wouldn’t work. Your thoughts?
Edited 11/13/2004 12:57 am ET by LJ
Replies
don't know if this will help you or not, but I have a fiberglass door that came with a stain kit. After staining it it looks like wood, I mean it really looks like wood, and I am hard to please like that.
People who use the door sometimes don't even realize it (the edge is wood, for lock reinforcement, which helps the perception). The wiped on stain has variation and the molded in grain is cast off of a real wooden door so it has pretty realistic variation. In my case, I went with a rather dark, walnut look. I thought the light oak was more fake looking.
Of course, you would know it was not wood, but if you want insulation this is my best idea how to go.
Or you could use a solid wood door (not as much R value, but it would be wood).
Norm
"After staining it it looks like wood, I mean it really looks like wood, and I am hard to please like that."
Me too... :)
I have yet to see a fiberglass grain I find convincing...which brand of door did you get?
Hi LJ
We just stained and installed a Therma-Tru fiberglass door. Therma-Tru makes a stain kit for their doors.
We used the same stain on the trim, which is oak. The door is so realistic, I can't tell any visual difference between the fiberglass and the real wood. The door also has a good solid and heavy feel.
Their web site is: http://www.thermatru.com/products/residential-index.shtml All of their doors are not stainable, so check for that.
kestrel
Hmm...I looked at Therma-Tru at the door store. Paintable smooth skin would be OK, but the guy said you could only get the horrible fiberglass trim. Guess I'll have to call the mfr.
Some folks seem to be saying "be authentic" without regard to how the room will feel in the dead of winter (and subsequently how much I'll have to send up the chimney to eliminate the chill). I could easily re-use the current basement door, in all its solid-wood, single-pane glory. I'd happily pay extra for a real wood surface, if only a manufacturer would offer me one over a high-performance core. I am just flabbergasted that no mfrs are doing this for entry doors like they all seem to be doing for patio doors...
Some folks seem to be saying "be authentic" without regard to how the room will feel in the dead of winter (and subsequently how much I'll have to send up the chimney to eliminate the chill).
that's not exactly what we're saying. we're saying that when you put a plastic door on a 70 year old house, you blow the integrity of the house and lose more than you gain. why? because your 70 year old house isn't going to be tight regardless of what you do. what do you think is happening with your chimneys, your windows, your attic, every outlet and switch hole? Old houses have a million places where heat escapes. by the way, there should be a door between your kitchen and mudroom. mudrooms were transitional rooms, not part of the interior rooms.
the thermal efficiency differential in putting a plastic door into this house is so small as to be non-existent. make everything as tight as you can, but keep the integrity of the house intact. what you gain in thermal efficiency is far less than what you lose in integrity.
"what do you think is happening with your chimneys, your windows, your attic, every outlet and switch hole?"
I'm tending to those things, bit by bit. When I do any electrical work, I put a gasket on the box. When I demo a room, I insulate before putting stuff back. When we re-shingled, I added housewrap. Insulation in the attic floor (and behind the built-in drawers in the kneewalls of the upstairs bedrooms) is on the list. My house will never be an unbroken cocoon of foam like a modern one, but by the time I collapse of old age, I hope to do it in a warm room. :)
Yeah, my windows are a problem. But in the winter, I can sure tell when the triple-tracks are closed.
"the thermal efficiency differential in putting a plastic door into this house is so small as to be non-existent."
I can always find a bigger context that makes whatever I'm talking about insignificant. It's a kind of rationalization, and it doesn't change the amount of money I have to put up the chimney to keep the mudroom toasty. I have a decision to make, and I want to optimize for integrity _and_ efficiency.
"by the way, there should be a door between your kitchen and mudroom."
In a house I design from scratch, probably. But our current back door comes into a very small, tight hallway. Eliminating this inconvenient and annoying constriction is a major design goal of the mudroom project.
I appreciate the feedback. I do put very high value on architectural integrity -- I just want the market to give me better options than it seems to be doing. After this project, I have to figure out what to do about my deteriorating copper gutters. This house was built to last a lifetime, and it did, and then I bought it...
Why are you not considering the real thing? A 70 year old house should have a wood mudroom door. Use a copper interlock weatherstrip around the edge, and it will treat you right. If you keep your eyes open, you might even find one that somebody else is tossing so that they can get a plastic door.
SHG
Yup..dead on there man.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I am considering the real thing (see original post), but also trying to be thermally responsible. Fiberglass is a much better insulator. This mudroom is about 6'x7', with three exterior walls (in Massachusetts), and won't have an airlock door -- it will be open to the kitchen. I am very paranoid about it feeling chilly in there.
(Plus my heating oil bill was $250 last month -- and it's only November!)
I agree on finding a suitable matching door. We have several places in town that reclaim fixtures, doors, windows, lights etc from houses. I got a matching five-panel door for a bedroom and an oversized door for a rear entrance for much less than a decent new door would have cost.
As I told someone awhile back, if I wanted new windows, I would have bought a new house. Its nice to know that I can find decent original fixtures to retain the character of my house.
Exactly. You have to give the house what it needs.
Totally agree....and I'm wondering what's wrong with wood as an insulation factor....am I missing something here?
Does that mean I should side my house with vinyl to stay warm?
Plastic vs wood....hmmm
Be warm
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"I'm wondering what's wrong with wood as an insulation factor"
Fiberglass is 5x better, I was told by the door salesman. If he was exaggerating by a factor of 2, it's only 2.5x better.
"Does that mean I should side my house with vinyl to stay warm?"
No, but it does mean that if you have an uninsulated log cabin, you better have a big stack of firewood too... :)
My point was that....youre not ever going to cover your house in Saran Wrap and shouldn't want/need to, so why worry to the umpteenth degree about five billionth of a percentage of air leak compared to the warmth of the feeling of your house (wood vs plastic)?
Be warm inside and out
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"why worry to the umpteenth degree about five billionth of a percentage of air leak"
Let me put it this way: if the completed mudroom feels chilly, I will have only one option: bump the thermostat. Since the entire house is one zone, this is not a very attractive option (see $250/month oil bill for November).
I've also considered putting a heat mat in the floor, as insurance against a thermostat bump.
you may also consider if its an option putting radiant heat under the floor...the tile in the floor holds heat and distributes it pretty good.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
putting radiant heat under the floor
That's what I was thinking, too.
That, and finding any way to get a second door in to give any sort of "airlock" on a "three sided" mudroom. It's generally easier to get two doors installed "above" average, than trying to get one door 100% perfect (and that before having to cope with the infiltration around all of the existing windows).
Ok, so, I'm going to guess the mudroom here is providing a lot of natural light (three-sided and no interior door). That says to me to add a good multi-light door on the inside. Lets the light in, keeps the drafts out. Might be a good place for a french door, either single or double, for the same reason.
But, I'm guessing on that last.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
A storm door wouldn't hurt eitherThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
A storm door wouldn't hurt either
Hmm, sounds like a not-bad winter article; a historically/architecturally sensitive storm door . . .
Just mentally wandered off thinking about how to set a mortice lockset in a storm door . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, since plastic was a consideration... Why not just install a sliding glass patio door for the interior door ?
;)
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Why not just install a sliding glass patio door
Hmm, Dunno, maybe we should ask O/P.
Would not be "sensitive," though . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Radiant heat: Was planning on sheet linoleum in the floor, actually -- due to existing conditions (slab on gravel) don't think I have enough vertical room for proper mudding of a masonry floor, and I'm also worried about eventual settling/cracking since I don't know how immobile the slab truly is. I figured linoleum would be durable but flexible (and I like the colors you can get these days). Comments on electric heating mats under linoleum?
Windows: Yup, they are there to preserve light and view when what is now outdoor space is enclosed. Going with Pellas. We have a Pella French door to the deck and it has held up quite well, and looks quite good with original fenestration. Also planning to replace the old single-pane sink window sash & triple track with a modern double-pane unit so that a) the most-used kitchen window will have a nicer view _and_ be warmer, and b) all the windows on the rear entry will be identical. (How's that for integrity?)
Airlock: French door is an interesting idea, but as I say, easier passage is a design goal. Perhaps a double set of 2' French panels hinged so they swing both ways and stay open could be more out of the way during warm months, and easier to get through during cold.
There are such things as solid wood doors with foam insulation sandwiched between wood panels in the bottom. Wood is about R1 per inch, foam is R4-7, so your salesman wasn't too far off. I'm not sure where or if you can buy the wood/foam doors, maybe they're only custom made.
For the small amount of area we're talking I'll have to go with AndyC and everyone else who says worry about this door last, if it means keeping some architectural integrity. First it's "just a steel door", then it's "just some vinyl siding", then pretty soon you have just another ugly house.
An all glass storm/screen door w/wooden frame.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
all glass storm/screen door w/wooden frame
Like 6/4 stock with a midrail for stiffness (and to carry the latchset).
I just can't quite decide if the "old fashioned" way would be a screw-in/snap-in bead, or some sort of rotating clip to hold in the screen and glass panels alternately.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
First it's "just a steel door", then it's "just some vinyl siding", then pretty soon you have just another ugly house.
Very well put.
"There are such things as solid wood doors with foam insulation sandwiched between wood panels in the bottom."
Really? That's exactly what I want to look at...unable to find them using Google or retail visits. Seems like such an obvious need, not sure why the big mfrs don't offer them. :(
"First it's 'just a steel door', then it's 'just some vinyl siding', then pretty soon you have just another ugly house."
Not to worry, those things are safely off limits. (Actually there are two steel doors in my walk-out basement now, but I don't have to look at them much, so they will probably stick around for a while.)
I recently finished building an exterior door to replace one that was missing from my 1830s house. As an experiment, I sandwiched a continuous piece of half-inch rigid foam insulation between the wood surfaces that will show on the interior and exterior.
The door is two-panel style (vertical), the panels being only 3/16-inch thick (actually FOUR panels, as there are two on the interior and two on the exterior, with the insulation sandwiched between). Half-inch thick wood is sandwiched around the perimeter of the door, with a few blocks elsewhere that pierce the insulation. The whole assembly was glued-up (the panels are "floating," glued only in the center where ther is a spacer block).
This will be a little-used door that will open directly into the kitchen, so I thought it worthwhile to beef up the r-value a bit. It replicates a door that was removed and walled-over by a previous owner.
I need to build one more exterior door, but that will open into a mudroom, so I'll use traditional joinery for that one.
Hopefully the "experimental" door will hold up ... time will tell.
Allen
Perhaps a double set of 2' French panels hinged so they swing both ways and stay open could be more out of the way during warm months, and easier to get through during cold
That's kind of what I was thinking. Let's you preserve character while controling drafts. Lets you take a 60/40 approach, too--put most of the anti-draft effort out in the exterior door, but also get some control in between too.
Airlock has another advantage. The best glazing out there is in the neighborhood of R5-6, but 60" of air (say, the width of the mudroom) is R-60. Two doors means any "draft" air has to blend with conditioned air--this decreases its sensible discomfort level.
Now, one thing you could do is to atypically hinge the French door units. Rather than either side, you could hinge one to the other, and then to the wall. This gives a whole bunch of options for space & room when opened.
I don't have any experience with the heating mats. It would seem like, if your slabe is stable enough, that you could put one in over a slipsheet and use a good sturdy tile in thinset over that. I'm not sure if you can put VCT or sheet goods over the heat mats--might be worth checking with the mfgr specs.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Airlock has another advantage. The best glazing out there is in the neighborhood of R5-6, but 60" of air (say, the width of the mudroom) is R-60."
Not really.
You have air current circulation carrying the cold air from one door to the other.
But you do add an air boundry on each side of the added door plus the R-value of the door.
And of course you have the extra air sealing, which you mentioned.
I think that the spacing for two elements (typlically 2 glass pains) is about 3/4 - 1" before you start getting convective air currents which reduce the effect R-value.
I think that the spacing for two elements (typlically 2 glass pains) is about 3/4 - 1"
Ok, I did over generalize a bit, but still air has a R value about 1 per inch. The sealed argon in a double or single glazed unit, and the thermal breaks in the frame will push the R value up--but it's still not very high. The window makers generally quote emissitivity numbers as they are higher (the emissivity being the inverse of R values, IIRC).
It seems like 1" is typicaly the thickest insulating glass assembly. The best R value units have a film membrane to make two airspaces. I know that a couple of the manufacturers literature talks about internal circulation, but the curtain wal units never seem to worry about that.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
What is wrong with adding a storm door?
"What is wrong with adding a storm door"
I've got one now and was hoping to ditch it. To my eye, no storm door looks as good as the absence of a storm door. Also, the swing of the new one would be slightly more in the way than the old one.
I will probably end up with solid wood (see, I do like architectural integrity) with double pane glass, do my best to weatherstrip it, and if the result doesn't feel warm enough in Jan. and Feb., add a storm door.