I’m doing a roof repair on an italiante style house and am going to be using EPDM for the “integrated gutter”portion up to the point it meets with the hip roof and asphalt shingles.
I”ve done EPDM before and am pretty familiar with it but this job has some unique tie-ins. We are not doing the whole house, only 2 sides so I was hoping someone could help me out with the tie ins. The two ends of the EPDM will meet into existing and otherwise fine torch down roofing. I know not to mix EPDM with oil based roofing materials so does anyone have any ideas as to tieing this into the torch down I would really appreciate it. As far as the shingles go, I was thinking about bending an aluminum “starter” course and cementing down the first course.
Cant find much help on this one, anyone’s advice would be appreciated.
Thanks, Chuck
Replies
Some pictures would be very helpful to see exactly what it is you're trying to do .
It sounds like you are re-lining the built in gutters with EPDM.
Some of the other details lost me, but one thing jumped out loud to me.
EPDM is not compatible with any bituminous roofing materials. It can seriously degrade in contact with them. Asphalt shingles and torch down mod bit fit this category.
Shingles lapping down over can be separated with a slip sheet, but you also mention a direct tie in which is not going to work.
You might rethink and go to relining with copper instead of the EPDM
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You might rethink and go to relining with copper instead of the EPDM
If he doesn't know that already, there's little hope. And if he's dead set on doing it himself without proper training, he might as well go on with the EPDM.
I wish I had all the money spent on failed attempts at built in gutter relinings I've had to re-do. I'd buy us all some pink Caddillacs and some peanut butter and banana sandwiches. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The reason I prefer to read everyone else's posts and not post many myself is all the smart a#* comments you get from everyone. Yes, I know EPDM and petroleum based products don't mix that's why my question was about the possibility of tieing them together but not touching, sort of like a dielectric union in plumbing. As far as proper training I've been on my own for 10 years and have done over 10 epdm roofing projects including going to Firestone's class.
Like I said this is a unique situation I was looking for some help and if you took the time to look at my backround I'm from Cleveland, copper in inner city Cleveland even on a roof would last about 10 minutes.
Thanks for those who responded with a helpful post
Here is what I did going from roll roofing to epdm on a low slope. I screwed an aluminum carpet strip over the junction and then painted a ton of coats of the white roofing sealer/paint. It lasted a couple of years and then leaked with many repair attempts. I also did one where I put an aluminum flashing under the roll roofing and over the epdm that was a big shallow valley. That worked fine except eventually the epdm shrinks and pulled loose from under the flashing. Of the gazillion things I have learned and forgotten over the years, one thing I will never forget is that when it comes to roofing....cheezeball will bite you in the butt every time.Nobody gets in to see the wizard...not nobody...not no how!
copper in inner city Cleveland even on a roof would last about 10 minutes.
Like I said, you have your mind made up to do it wrong. EPDM is good stuff, but is a very poor choice for what you want to do. You don't have to use copper, but it's the best choice of the available solderable metals. Terne and galvanized will work, but must be painted and the paint maintained. Terne coated stainless is more expensive than copper. Lead coated copper is way higher than regular copper, but less likely to be stolen.
EPDM does not conform well to the gutter box and does not glue well to exisitng rusty metal. It also cuts down on the capacity of the gutter and the wrinkles restrict the flow.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but as I said, built in gutters have a set of rules that many that work on them don't understand.
I'll be glad to try to answer any questions you have about re-lining with metal, but putting any sort of membrane in a box gutter is throwing good money after bad, IMHO.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I didn't mean to take it the wrong way and I can further explain my situation. This house like many is in a poor neighborhood. These homes are mostly rentals and "Finehomebuiding" techniques stopped being performed sometime in the '60's. The homeowner doesn't have a lot of money and I'm just trying to help. Trust me, I take a lot of pride in my work and always strive for perfection, this just isn't one of those situations. But even though it isn't high end work I do want it done well.
The box gutters are long gone, much like a lot of the homes in this area. What they did a long time ago was put a curb above the exterior crown moulding and basiclly create a giant 3' half round gutter of torch down that leads up to the shingles on the hip. This slopes to some integrated down spouts. So I don't actually have to line a gutter, though I would love to get to work with someone and do a copper one someday.
My thought was this. Tear off existing torch down and check for rot, etc. Install proper Firestone insulation board and EPDM roofing. it will tie into 2 high spots and my plan was to seal/fasten a strip of aluminum over the torch down so the epdm seals to that with sealing tape and lap cement. where it ties into the shingles I know is done is all the time and I just wondered what people used as a slip sheet. I was thinking aluminum again.
I know this isn't the absolute "right" way but I was hoping someone else was once in my situation.
Thanks again for the advice, Chuck
Chuck ,
In the situation you've just described it sounds like a workable plan of attack to me .
You're familiar with rubber and for this application it will work for quite some time .
A slip sheet could be any of the synthetic underlayments out there .
Walter
Hey Walter -
Have you actually ever seen an EPDM lining job last for any period of time, like more than a year or two? I have not, which is why I feel so strongly about it. But if it worked, I guess I wouldn't be getting called to re-do them.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I appreciate everyone's help, I'll take some pics and let you know how it goes.
Chuck
Grant--- I have done several of them in EPDM------and as far as I know they are all still working fine---- I posted pictures of one of them here several years ago. I don't line them in fiberboard however--usually the repairs involve replacing boards--and I do that with plywood and then glue directly to the plywood. I also wouldn't worry about a slip sheet between shingles and EPDM-- I wouldn't want a tar like Karnak in contact with EPDM--- but shingles are safe---- I have seen AND done shingles and EPDM connections many times--no problem.
Stephen
Grant ,
Read more closely -the gutters are gone . He's basically doing a very small roof
i'm not visualizing it that way myself, but he doesn't have a photo, I'm stuck with the picture my mind created.
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He's basically doing a very small roof
"am going to be using EPDM for the "integrated gutter"portion up to the point it meets with the hip roof and asphalt shingles. " http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Re read post # 9
OK, I read that three times and it is a three foot wide swale, but it still functions as a gutter.Points of concern would be how he addresses the outer edge and that tie in top the mod bit in the other two sides. Loota goop, hope for the best, and let the owner know the only way to warrantee the work is if he does the whole roof.how he connects to the scupper is another worrisome detail.
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Paul,
It's a wide area that is covered with board and acts as a gutter , but not an old metal channel that will be lined.
Give the guy some slack - he's been to Firestone school .
It's an easy job he's doing .
"he's been to Firestone school ."That was the biggest puzzler in this - he already knows as much as we do, but it looking for advice how to get around what he already knows is the problem.He'll do it well enough, considering circumstance and budget, just not good. Hopefully the owner understands. Sometimes the owner is thankfull you did him good considering...and other times a compromise job like this bites you in the butt when they blame you for shortcuts later on, even tho they caused the shortcut with the tight budget.
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"he's been to Firestone school ."
Yeah - me too. And Carlisle and Mulehide as well. And lining box gutters was never mentioned.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
IChttp://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Grant ,
Since you asked --- yes . This repair was done 12 or more years ago to these strap hung gutters .
Went this afternoon to do an analysis for this house a couple down from Steven King . Broker called , has a contract , wanted to know what I'd charge to look it over since the HI noted some problems.
Said I'd do a SF album with write up for $250 .
Of course I'll be the only bidder to perform the needed work too.
This isn't field rubber , but neoprene glued in place and lap sealed . Where it's barely rusted thru it works fine if you're careful .
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And the whole album of my site visit if anyone is interested .
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq2bA
To show that plastic roof cement and rubber can co -exist .
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uh Hunh!;)
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just out of curiosity, what would you recommend using as a slip sheet?