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Our Church is in need of a new roof on one wing of the building. The asphalt built up (this is a flat roof) is at least 24 years old, maybe older. The roof dimensions are 21 ft. wide X 99 ft. long; with a 24 inch tall parapet wall surrounding 3 sides and this is capped with stone capping.
One contractor wants to install a Carlisle membrane system, whereby he will tear off the old, install 1-1/2 inch polyisocyanate insulation, and then glue down the membrane on top. Supposedly this membrane will only be glued down at the seams, and the middle section of each 10 ft. wide roll will “float.” The seams will be overlapped and also reinforced with 6 inch wide epdm tape. This membrane is only 45 mils thick, but contains fiberglass reinforcement. The contractor noted that the memnbrane may “ripple” in wind gusts but will not compromise the integrity of the whole system.
The other contractor wants to install a 60 mil Firestone (unreinforced) epdm membrane overtop of 1/2 inch construction board (similar to the Celotex black composite construction panels). The board will be mechanically attached to the old deck (after removal of old asphalt layers) and then the membrane will be 100% glued down to this board. Again, seams will overlap and also be reinforced with epdm tape.
Both contractors will roll the membrane up the parapet walls and terminate them with aluminum termination bars fastened to the wall.
Biggest concern is whether the Carlisle will hold up since it is lighter and not 100% glued down. Also, Carlisle system was almost $6,000 cheaper (lowest bid out of 4 bids) than the Firestone, which was 2nd lowest bid, and the other 2 bids were both nearly $4,000 higher than the Firestone:; hence the Carlisle bid was approx. half of the other 2. This fact seemed questionable, though the roofer has good references (we checked). Carlisle roofer said his system costs a lot less than Firestone and the others and so he can pass this savings on to us. Is there that big of a difference in material costs?
Anyone having experience with either system, please give some insights.
Also, One contractor claims old roof contains asbestos in the felt layers, other contractor says no asbestos. What is the usual cost to have a lab conduct a test on a sample? How many samples would be required to test for a roof this size?
All input is greatly appreciated Thanks.
Davo.
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I have only used the Firestone... Worked great for me.
I would bet either product done well to spec by experienced men will perform well. Find out if the men that install it have years of experience... call and go see ten year old work.
In our town... only one outfit has the top commercial long term experience and references.
Tell me how many sqft and what the bids were, and how many years they say their roofs will last?
near the stream,
aj
*AJThe Firestone contractor has been around since 1945. Lots of experience (including crew) and very reputable. Bid was approx. $15,000The Carlisle contractor has been in the roofing business approx. 15 years. Crew has 5 years experience using this Carlisle system. Previously, they used to install the Firestone system years back, but switched over to Carlisle. In my area, this guy has done several , but none of the jobs are older than 3 years...all look good so far. His bid was approx $9,300.The other 2 bids were in the $19,000 to $21,000 range.Square footage of roof (including parapet wall area and some incidentals besides main roof area)is approx. 2600 sq. ft. Soooo, what da ya think?Davo
*Dave,I think roofers get a lot more money where you are than they do here. Around here I would think you could get the Firestone for $7,800 easy.The question is, if you save $6000, what do you give up. Years of service??? Nothing???You've seen three year old roofs by the contractor, but how long has Carlisle been making that particular system. Do they have installations that are significantly older?? That answer might help with the decision.Rich Beckman
*Carlisle contractor has to provide you with full info it you decide to go with him as lowest bid.You should call Carlisle and ask them about him if need be. You need to know what system he is using and you need to know the warranty length, and you need to know if the wind speed limit is OK for your churches location. Carlisle inspects these roofs in order for the warranty to start. Carlisles site is very informative. Most EPDM companies make a variety of thicknesses. I have only use Firestone 60 mil. I also have not done a rip off job, just new work, so I charged less. I also am using it residentially so the manufacturers are not involved and do not warranty.near the stream,ajSo what exact Carlisle system, and is Carlisle in on the contract upfront?
*AJBoth contractors were warranting their work for 15 years. Both were certified installers for Carlisle and Firestone. Both would have an agent come and certify that job was done to spec. I already explained that Carlisle system would rip off old roof down to decking, and mechanically fasten 1-1/2 inch polyiso insulation to deck. Firestone would rip off old and mechanically fasten 1/2 inch construction board to deck. Carlisle would roll out roofing and only glue down around perimeter seams. Firestone would roll out roofing and glue entire sheet of epdm down. Both would lap and tape all existing seams. Both bidders furnished us with product samples and booklets explaining the system they were going to install. Both have been "up-front" all the way.The real "sticking point" is whether the old existing roof contains asbestos or not. The Carlisle contractor says "no" and further explained that he rarely ever runs into that type of situation. He acts like its no big deal. The Firestone contractor said there is asbestos, and that it was quite commomn on built-up roofs up to 1978, when he claims it was at that time illegal to use after that. Our roof was done in that time area (circa 1970s) and so it is possible that roof is asbestos. Roofing felt has a grey sheen to it, almost like linen threads woven in the felt. BUT, one of our church leaders claim that that roof is not asbestos, but contains fiberglass fibers instead. Truth is, no one really knows. Firestone guy included in his price the cost of removing and properly disposing of an asbestos roof. Carlisle guy did not. WE really need to have roof tested. This church is in middle of downtown and I'm sure City inspectors will be present.I'm not worried if it is asbestos, it certainly is not the "friable" kind, but from an EPA disposal standpoint, we need to "mind our P's and Q's" if you know what I mean. No one in our area seems to know where to have a roof sample tested. One person claimed that a lab in Pittsburgh, Pa. could run the test, but that they would need approx. 5 samples from different areas on the roof and the cost would be approx $300. Carlisle guy had no answers about asbestos testing; he evidently has little or no experience in this arena. Firestone guy said all we would need is 1 piece to be tested; he referred us to a Pittsburgh lab, and offered to take a test sample to them. He claims he uses this lab a lot and cost would only be $30. SOOOO, what's the deal here? What is a normal procedure for sampling and associated costs?I know the Carlisle system has been in use at least 10 years ( so I've been told by others) but don't know of any jobs older than 3 years in my area off hand. I will call the co. and inquire more about their product.Davo
*Davo...Carlisle sells a zillion systems... They have names.It sounds like your contract needs wording from your lawyer to make the contractor include the testing and disposal issues. And it sounds like the Firestone guy deals with it more often. You now have to choose. Extra money for possible less trouble.near the stream,ajContact inspectors and ask to meet you and the Carlisle Gc at the site. If all is fine, then you save some money. Or just pass the basket a few extra weeks.
*One test sample may run you $30-60. You can always send in one sample and see what the result is. If it's positive for asbestos, the whole roof is suspect and you have your answer for minimal $ outlay.If you get that one sample back and it says negative for asbestos....you won't necessarily be able to classify the whole roof as "non-containing". You would at that point need to test a prescribed number of samples scattered across the building (also various mastics on flashing details, etc...)i The Carlisle contractor says "no" (asbestos) and further explained that he rarely ever runs into that type of situation.We test every pre-1980 roof before getting a contractor on board. It worries me that the Carlisle contractor is so flippant about it. He either wants to allay your fears, and have you go with his cheaper price; or he is ill informed about asbestos in roofing products.It sounds like the Firestone guy is planning on it being asbestos, and pricing accordingly. He may well indeed know with SOME certainty by looking at the roofing. But if it isn't asbestos, you're paying an unneccessary premium for treating it as containing.Test the material. Look under yellow pages for "Asbestos Consulting & Testing" I live in a small town and there are 2 listings here. It's a little bit of investment to insure that your larger roof investemnt dollars are spend wisely, and are not opening you up to a greater liability.re. fully adhered vs perimeter, I don't have 10-15 yrs experience with either system. Just make sure the factory rep visits, and issues the written warrantee. If the roof is visible from the ground, the ripples might not look as nice as fully-adhered though.
*I haven't read the whole thread so this might be redundant but when I took the EPDM installation course years ago, one of the bits of info that I came away with was based on a question like this. There were at that time ( and I think still are ) only two manufacturres of EPDM in the country. All other brands were simply relabeled and marketed by others. Firestone was one and it seems like Uniroyal was the other but I'm not sure on that second one.There are two thicknesses marketed though. Thickness and reputation of the installer vs. price would be my crteria.
*Davo, Another thought............The "floating and rippling" does not sound the best!How much "f&r" will the membrane stand before it fatigues and cracks or abraids through? What will the "f&r" sound like inside the building on a windy day?........................Iron Helix
*I've recently completed a school project that had several buildings with multiple GCs. One GC used the Carlisle system, another used Firestone. Maybe it was the installer, but the Carlisle system was the worst. It developed leaks quickly. We had callbacks after every drizzle. The Firestone system was far superior.You should specify: Tear off and removal of old roof. Keep the cost of the asbestos removal as an alternate. If it is ACM (Asbestos Contaminated Material) you pay X dollars. If not, you save X dollars. Mechanically fasted 2" poly-iso board. Mechanically fastened 1/2" deck board. Fully adhered membrane. Is the roof flat or pitched. If it is flat, the poly-iso should be designed to pitch towards roof drains (if there are any)The manufacturer has certain specifications to installing their systems. For example, they have a fastening diagram. Certain number of screws along the edge, certain number of screws in the field. They provide a drawing showing the tapers required to get to the roof drains. Also, if you have any roof mounted equipment, make sure they provide walkway pads from your point of access to the equipment. These are 1/2" thick 3' X 3' rubber mats with treads to protect the EPDM.The warranties we requested were: 20 year from the manufacturer on the system, 10 year from the installer. The manufacturer must come out and insect the roof for the warranty. They usually come out during the installation. Then they'll come out to "punch-list" the roof before certifying it. Then they'll issue a warranty. Make sure the warranty is issued to the church not the installer.In short, don't skimp on the roof. The leaking roof we had was in a new gymnasium we built. The roof leaked and wet the pipe insulation as well as the new maple floor. To get to the pipe insulation (17' AFF) we had to bring in a lift, which wreaked havoc on the maple. You get the picture!Hope this helped!!!
*Michael's horror story... That's why I say go with the long term experience guy with references that have no leaks for years and years.And 60 mil has way more UV life over 40 mil from what I was told on straight EPDM. I do not know about the white EPDM, it may last longer because of the added white layer. Mostly the white layer is for looks and for less heat,... mostly a looks issue.near the stream thinking the Firestone $15,000 deal is looking better and better.aj
*I've managed alot of buildings with EPDM roofs. Some suggestions:If this roof is flat (why do architects design flat roofs?) Get tapered insulation boards installed under the EPDM to slope the roof toward the drains. Flat roofs are swimming pools.EPDM should be installed either fully adhered or ballasted with stone so it doesn't flap in the wind. A stiff wind over a flat sheet of EPDM will lift it like an airplane wing. It can crack where it can flex and some have even been pulled completely off in a storm.Go with the heavier material. I don't know if you have mechanicals on your roof but dropped air-conditioner access panel or an old broken part discarded on the roof is less likely to penetrate the heaver rubber.And once its installed, don't ever patch a leak with an asphalt based sealer. I see this everywhere. Tar, or other asphalt patches disolve EPDM and cause the seams to fall apart.
*I will clearly answer your original question here. It doesn't matter. Firestone's system is no better or worse than Carlisle's. For the record, Carlisle invented rubber for roofing 40 years ago. Michael Lonigro makes some great points in his post, but be sure you understand that the two roofs he describes were done by two different contractors. It's not the material, it's the installation that matters here.Have a sample cut from the roof and test it.Carlisle makes 60 mil unreinforced. Get a piece of each and look at it. The reinforced stuff will amaze you with its strength.Does your building have any other insulation than the roof deck ? Should you be thinking about this ?$1000 per square for rubber. wow. Do you have a million roof penetrations, ac units, etc. that you aren't telling us about ?FYI White rubber actually has a shorter lifespan than black. Carlisle does have a relatively new heat welded white product out there which is fantastic, but for simplicity sake, stick with what you've got so far.
*Thank you all for your advice.The roof is basically 21 ft X 99 ft surrounded by a 2ft. high parapet wall topped with stone capping. There are only 2 vent pipes sticking through the roof (bathrooms) and there is one built-in drain line that runs the length of the 99 ft rectangle. This line has 3 drain openings, approx 30 feet apart OC, and are situated only 4 feet in from the parapet wall. Rain water enters through these 3 drain openings, and run into the large diameter pipe underneath the roof deck where it is carried away.There are no AC units or any other type of hardware and/or protrusions located on this roof wing. All heating/AC units located on a nearby adjoining roof which is in good condition.The existing built-up roof has survived rather well. Little standing water anywhere. The roof failed mostly at the 90 degree juncture point between wall and roof. Wall flashing was simply asphalt based and later opened up with cracks and allowed rain water to penetrate. Overall roof sustained few blisters and cracks.The Carlisle contractor wanted to use the 1-1/2 inch polyiso to help form (channel) waterflow to the existing drains. The Firestone contractor felt channeling was not needed, as standing water really was not much of an issue. Roof is nearly flat, but there is a very slight pitch of the roof deck centering it toward the drains.This roof cannot be viewed by anyone at street level or by nearby buildings as this church building is high enough to keep roof out of view, so color and /or rippling effect will not be seen by general public.Both contractors offered to install the 3'X 3' rubber pads, but both claimed that for the amount of foot traffic (very minimal) that will pass on the roof, the pad installation would be unneccessary. I believe both quoted a cost of around $60 per pad installed. We were considering them, and still are, though I too think it to be unneccessary considering what we have up on that side of the roof. Tim, although the majority of this roof section is shaped like a rectangle, there is a "cross-over" section that links both roof wings together, and in this cross-over area there is also a baptismal tank roof that will be "rubberized" with the new epdm. Taking all this into account, the total square footage to be re-roofed is approx. 2600 sq.ft. Carlisle price is $10,000....= $384.61 per square.Firestone price is $15,000 ..= $576.93 per square.Sooo, how'd you come up with the figure $1,000 per square?Ryan, How do these prices compare to what you normally see? $3.84 to $5.76 per square foot installed? Is this HIGH or LOW for this type of commercial work? These costs include tear-off/removal; all local /state permits & fees.Michael, Same question ....how do these prices compare to what you contracted for?Thanks again guys.Davo
*In my cruising through all of the info I caught 21' x 99' (about 2000 sq ft) and I also saw the $19000 and $21000 prices which puts you at about $1000 square. I missed the 2600 sqft in the post. I would have to check ( mainly because of the polyiso) but I think we're paying between $3 and $4 sq ft.
*I do a good bit of vibration analysis in the plant where Firestone makes their material in Prescott, Arkansas. They are good folks with very high quality standards. But I suspect the Carlisle product is also well made. And I had another customer who contracted to have the Firestone system installed on their roofs and I'm up there every month walking around on it. Seems to be holding up well, but I think it could have been better installed. It has wrinkles in it, and it shouldn't have. Either it wasn't pulled flat when installed, or the material had "baloons" in it and should have been rejected by the contractor.So I agree with the others that a good system, poorly installed, is not going to look good, and it may not work well. If the Firestone guy is assuming asbestos, ask him what he will take off his price if it in fact does NOT contain asbestos. If that's the difference in the prices, that should get them much closer in price. Then choose the product/contractor you are most comfortable with.
*$4/Ft is closer to normal
*Here in Minnesota (Minneapolis, specifically), it is not uncommon to pay between $4.80 to $7.20 per sq.ft. for this sort of work. I too am skeptical of the long term implications of the partial glue-down approach. Make sure to inquire about both contractors methods of dealing with the roof to wall transitions. Are they using cant strips? Are they using reinforced backing strips? Are they using uncured flashing to strengthen the inside corners? Just some things to think about.
*Davo,When it comes to EPDM roofs there are a couple of axioms to remember, one being thicker is better. White is also better than black. Cant strips are very important where a horizontal surface meets a vertical surface. Mechanical fastening systems can be a continuous problem. A fully adhered system will be easier to repair if it should spring a leak (just trying to find the source in a mechanically fastened system or partially glued system can drive you around the bend as the water can travel long distances under the EPDM before it finally comes though in the ceiling - got lots of horror stories about these if you want to read them).Basically, most EPDM manufacturers are OK. Both Firestone and Carlisle are reputable companies.Finally, remember that you get what you pay for, and an informed consumer can avoid being ripped off too.Cliff.
*Again, Thank you all for your concerns and postings on this matter. We are presently in the process of getting a few roof samples tested to see if they test positive for asbestos; then we'll go from there.One note of interest concerning cant strips. In Built-up Roofs, I always thought cant strips for wall/roof deck point was a good idea(Break up that sharp 90 degree transition point to a softer one). With all 4 initial bidders (including the 2 we have narrowed down to) we indicated that we wanted cant strips installed. Everyone to a "T" answered that cant strips are not required for EPDM roofs, and that their manufacture reps said that by doing so, could void the roof warranty. Anyone else hear this from EPDM installers. Also, all 4 bidders did give us an alternative bid for a built-up roof (BUR), and in everyone of these bids, they DID INCLUDE the installation of cant strips; so they evidently do have them and do know how to install, but were reluctant to use for EPDM only.I found this curious.Again, Thank You Everyone for your responses. I greatly appreciate the "feedback."Davo
*dear dave being a27 year veteran of installing roofs,it comes down to you get what you pay for. the edpm roofs will almost always be cheaper to install as their is less equipment and man power involed.as for the life of the roof the says it. most edpm roofs last appx.12-15 years due to the shrinkage they experience (check it out its their specs avg.1%) as for a built up roof applied correctly 15 to 20 years I have repaired 23 year old bur roofs and seen last 2-3 more years. if the roof was mine I go hot tar anytime
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Our Church is in need of a new roof on one wing of the building. The asphalt built up (this is a flat roof) is at least 24 years old, maybe older. The roof dimensions are 21 ft. wide X 99 ft. long; with a 24 inch tall parapet wall surrounding 3 sides and this is capped with stone capping.
One contractor wants to install a Carlisle membrane system, whereby he will tear off the old, install 1-1/2 inch polyisocyanate insulation, and then glue down the membrane on top. Supposedly this membrane will only be glued down at the seams, and the middle section of each 10 ft. wide roll will "float." The seams will be overlapped and also reinforced with 6 inch wide epdm tape. This membrane is only 45 mils thick, but contains fiberglass reinforcement. The contractor noted that the memnbrane may "ripple" in wind gusts but will not compromise the integrity of the whole system.
The other contractor wants to install a 60 mil Firestone (unreinforced) epdm membrane overtop of 1/2 inch construction board (similar to the Celotex black composite construction panels). The board will be mechanically attached to the old deck (after removal of old asphalt layers) and then the membrane will be 100% glued down to this board. Again, seams will overlap and also be reinforced with epdm tape.
Both contractors will roll the membrane up the parapet walls and terminate them with aluminum termination bars fastened to the wall.
Biggest concern is whether the Carlisle will hold up since it is lighter and not 100% glued down. Also, Carlisle system was almost $6,000 cheaper (lowest bid out of 4 bids) than the Firestone, which was 2nd lowest bid, and the other 2 bids were both nearly $4,000 higher than the Firestone:; hence the Carlisle bid was approx. half of the other 2. This fact seemed questionable, though the roofer has good references (we checked). Carlisle roofer said his system costs a lot less than Firestone and the others and so he can pass this savings on to us. Is there that big of a difference in material costs?
Anyone having experience with either system, please give some insights.
Also, One contractor claims old roof contains asbestos in the felt layers, other contractor says no asbestos. What is the usual cost to have a lab conduct a test on a sample? How many samples would be required to test for a roof this size?
All input is greatly appreciated Thanks.
Davo.