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estimating bath remodel. pricey?

hvtrimguy | Posted in Business on March 23, 2007 06:12am

I’ve estimated and done a few bath remodels and every time I am astounded at how much money goes into such a little room. I just worked up the numbers for a 7′ x 7′ gut and redo basic bath, new FG shower, new electric, new plumbing locations, new insulation , new drywall, new pocket door, new vinyl floor, new cabinetry, corian top, new paint, new toilet / faucet , t and g wainscotting on walls. came up with my cost of $19,500. by the time I mark up, how can an average middle class family afford such a project? what’s your take? Am I high?, low?, in the ballpark?

“it aint the work I mind,
It’s the feeling of falling further behind.”

Bozini Latini

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  1. woody1777 | Mar 23, 2007 07:09am | #1

    came up with my cost of $19,500. by the time I mark up, how can an average middle class family afford such a project? what's your take? Am I high?, low?, in the ballpark

    Is that $19,500 without your markup? So you'd be in the mid twenties for the whole shootin match ? Assuming a pretty picky finish, thats the middle, but not unreasonable at all IMHO. 

    As to how the average middle class family affords it? Either they were smart with their own money, or they are dumb with the banks money.

    Around here a dual professional income home( say, mom is in medical,dad in mid level management) is gonna be in the low 6 figures net. So 20 some G's for a new bath is not out of the question.

    A single wage earner in the 50-60K range? Not happening as a rule.

  2. woodguy99 | Mar 23, 2007 12:58pm | #2

    That sounds like you're in the ballpark.  Just changing out the finishes can be $5K, and using high-end stuff like tile and frameless glass, custom cabinets, etc. can bring it up to $40k.

    10% appreciation on a $200K house would let the owner refinance to pay for it--there's one way.  Kitchen and bath reno's always top the lists of projects that you get your money back on when you sell.  If local real estate appreciates at 3% a year it would only take three years or so to get the money back if they sell--in that time the bath should still look fresh and new, and they've gotten to enjoy using it in the meantime.

    You're not taking money from them, you're contributing to their investment!

     

     

    "This is a process, not an event."--Sphere

    And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig

  3. DonCanDo | Mar 23, 2007 01:06pm | #3

    A vinyl floor?  That seems too "economy" for a complete remodel.

    1. User avater
      MarkH | Mar 23, 2007 01:50pm | #4

      I like vinyl bathroom floors. Put down a new one if it gets damaged or outdated, no big deal. Little requirements except a smooth underlayment.

       

      Tile is cold, sometimes slick, gets dirty grout, breaks or breaks stuff that falls on it, is not so waterproof as vinyl,  needs a very strong floor, can raise the floor above the surrounding floor, but long life span is a plus, unless it gets outdated.

    2. hvtrimguy | Mar 24, 2007 06:48am | #16

      Hey Don, Actually, the project came about because their son has a seizure disorder so they chose vinyl as easy to clean and yet not as hard as tile when their son is having a seizure. I'm sensitive to this project because I don't want to ask for more than I need since they are friends from church and they have been through some rough times. Besides I would love to help them get a quality job in their budget that makes the bathroom seizure friendly.Thanks for you feedback,Jay"it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

  4. jja28 | Mar 23, 2007 03:56pm | #5

    To me, this price sounds a bit high. I'm basing this on a couple of things:

    1) You have not included "your" markup yet. That's going to be...another 20-25% maybe (including overhead and profit)? That brings it up to almost $25,000 +/-.

    2) Although some like vinyl flooring..when I hear/see vinyl flooring...it screams cheap..and $25,000+ is not cheap. (Maybe the customer WANTS vinyl..and if that's the case, that's cool). But it seems like your mixing higher end (wainscoating) with lower end (vinyl).

    3) When you say your cost is $19,500...is that you and/or your guys doing all the work? Or are you subbing everything out (maybe minus gutting the bathroom) to where 3 or so other contractors (plumber, electrician, sheetrock, floor, etc) are making a good commission off the job also?

    Just some thoughts...I could be way off in my way of thinking though...

    1. hvtrimguy | Mar 24, 2007 06:53am | #17

      I would say that my cost includes overhead but not profit so I was looking at only adding 10%. I will have a plumber and electrician but all else is us. We are moving the washer and dryer from the exisiting room to the next room and hooking it up (I forgot to mention that). and vinyl was chosen as a safety concern due to their child who has a seizure disorder. They are friends from church and I want to be fair. besides, there is virtualy no commute, they live around the corner."it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

  5. User avater
    SamT | Mar 23, 2007 04:14pm | #6

    $32,175

    SamT

    Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.

  6. jmac | Mar 23, 2007 04:23pm | #7

    In Northern VA, I've seen $20-25 for a 5x8, "rip and replace" with tile and mid-range fixtures.  One outfit, (forget the name) has pre-selected packages for around $15+ keeping the sink/tub/toilet in the same locations.  You start making different choices, like a claw foot tub, upper-end fixtures, etc. you get into the 30s easy.

    Your prices sound about right, but I agree with the commenets about vinyl.  People round here would assume the bathroom is lower end with that floor.

     

    1. User avater
      SamT | Mar 23, 2007 04:41pm | #8

      Please educate me.

      What is the best bathroom flooring and why is it the best.SamT

      A vinyl BR floor lover.

      1. jmac | Mar 23, 2007 05:08pm | #9

        "Best" depends on the individual.  It depends what people value.  <!----><!----><!---->

        There are various categories we can come up with.  For example, durability, ease of cleaning, aesthetics, cost, etc.  People have different ranking of importance for some of these.  Sometimes preferences are not rational or categorical, e.g. "I grew up in a house with a dirt bathroom floor, so that’s what I want in my house."  For those with an eye towards reselling soon, the market preferences/expectations for a house in a given price range are "best" for liquidity.<!----><!---->

        My wife wanted 1" hex tile floors in our bath.  So that’s what we have.  To me that is the best choice, because she likes it.  Vinyl may have been less expensive, easier to maintain, and just as nice looking, but there was no way we were going to have that in the bathroom.  (We do have it in the kitchen though-- so it is not that we dislike it all-together.)<!----><!---->

        So to answer your question, we need to determine the categories that drive preference for flooring, and then rank vinyl against the other options.  Some will be easy to compare as they are empirical, e.g. price per sq. ft.  Others will be virtually impossible to quantify.

      2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 23, 2007 09:12pm | #10

        IMO, best for resale in most markets is porcelain tile.   A good looking, non-porous, non-slip surface, it's very easy to keep clean.   I did a bath remodel last year with American Olean porcelain 12X12s which cost me less than $2 sqft, about $3 sqft including hardibacker, hardware and thinset.  That's standard price for that tile at my supplier.   

        FWIW, this remodel was on a house I owned and sold last year.  Gutted the old 7X7 bath, re-plumbed it, new subfloor, insulation and green board.  Installed a new corner shower unit, new toilet, vanity and sink.  New ceiling fan with timer and new lighting.  Budget stuff but nice looking.  The key component is the porcelain tile.  I also used it for base and as trim around the shower unit.  The tile and some better quality fixtures make the rest of the budget stuff look decent.  Another cheap trick...I bought an oak vanity, added a second coat of polyurathane, and swapped out the crappy hardware for some better quality stuff.  

        My materials cost was under $2500, twenty-five hundred dollars. 

        Edited 3/23/2007 2:16 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter

      3. User avater
        JeffBuck | Mar 23, 2007 10:06pm | #11

        sheet vinyl.

         

        but no one here wants to hear that.

        'cause it's a bath ... and bath's are usually near water.

        sheet vinyl is soft, warm and darn near waterproof ... and very easy to keep spic and span.

        same answer for a kitchen floor too.

         

        but even my own bath floor is tile ... 'cause that's what I do ... and sooner or later we're gonna sell this dump ... and someone till walk in and go "Ohh ... Tile floor!"

        Jeff    Buck Construction

         Artistry In Carpentry

             Pittsburgh Pa

        1. User avater
          SamT | Mar 24, 2007 04:03am | #14

          Ohh ... Tile floor!"

          That's what I thought was the reason most prefer tile.

          I too like vinyl BRs. Maybe I might like cork kitchens. Not sure yet. Got some cork I'm gonna try out somewhere.SamT

          Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.

          1. User avater
            JeffBuck | Mar 24, 2007 08:11am | #22

            I've never installed a cork floor ...

            thinking I'll have to do my own just to try it.

             

            from everything I read and have been told from those I trust ... it's the way to go.

            seems like the "close to perfect" kitchen floor.

             

            Ditchburns also has me convinced an end grain wood block floor is perfect for a "traditional" kitchen "restoration".

            I think both have enough snob appeal to sell.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

  7. andybuildz | Mar 23, 2007 10:25pm | #12

    Sounds right on without seeing it so...Don't forget..and you can explain this to your customers. If the bathroom were four feet+/- bigger in both directions the price wouldn't change all that much so the size has little to do with it. Matter of fact, I'd "rather" work in a room that was a little bigger. The decieding factors on cost is where the bathroom is...first or second floor? Access.
    Is the tile on the diagonal?
    Where can I set up my wet saw/tools?
    Dispose of debris?
    Drop cloth set up to get in and out of the house.
    I spent two weeks doing a 4x4 shower stall cause of all the tile detail..rock install then Kerdi install then then then...if it was 4' bigger I'd probably add on half a day..TOPS...if that..and that was just the shower.
    It depends on a whole lot more than size. Thats first and foremost in what needs to be gotten across to the customer.

     

     

     

    http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

     
    1. rasher | Mar 24, 2007 12:11am | #13

      Best bathroom floor? Tires!
      http://www.ecosurfaces.com/
      This is what I have in my house. An easy DIY, sticks down easy, looks great. ZERO maintenance. We mop ours 1-2 time a year. We've had it down 6 years now with no problems and no issues. It's semi-squiggy rubber so it's safe and non-slip.
      I would use this product again in a second. Bonus: Call your closest commercial product rep and see if maybe he/she can check and see if they have a big enough scrap for you at the factory. We got ours for almost nothing.

      1. DavidxDoud | Mar 24, 2007 05:00am | #15

        I checked out the product - looks interesting -

        but they don't even give you a hint of the price -

        how much you pay for yours?

         

         

         "there's enough for everyone"

    2. hvtrimguy | Mar 24, 2007 06:59am | #18

      excelent atention to the details of dificulty, It is on the first floor but in the back of the house. drop cloths, plastic, etc. will be needed. tool setup outside only, two dogs in the house who are large, curiuos and excitable. very nice peopl however, known them for years. easy to accomodate."it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

  8. User avater
    jonblakemore | Mar 24, 2007 07:33am | #19

    I'll go ahead and say it, I think you're high.

    I did a quick estimate and I come to $18,957 for all costs and markup.

    That's 120 labor hours @ $65/hr. The allotments are what I would think is on the high side, especially when you are talking about using an FG shower unit and vinyl flooring. I went ahead and did tile just because.

    The price includes a 30% markup on all material and subcontractor costs.

    I can't imagine a job like this taking more than three weeks. Andy C. talks about spending two weeks in a shower, but you have a FG shower unit. I would bet that if I wanted to bid this competitively the cost could drop at least another couple of thousand.

     

    Jon Blakemore

    RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

    1. hvtrimguy | Mar 24, 2007 07:42am | #20

      I am impressed you took the time to plug the numbers, thanks. I went back and looked at the origional post and I forgot to include we will be removing the washer / dryer from the origional location in the bath and moving it to the storage room next door. and we will tape and paint that room white. reall basic."it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

      1. andybuildz | Mar 24, 2007 08:13am | #23

        cpl of shots,,,and I still need to grout!

         

         

         

        http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

         

        1. andybuildz | Mar 24, 2007 08:22am | #24

          note the pic of the niche...where the tile on the bottom right corner is about a two+" piece yet the tiles above the niche are full. I took a full 4x4 tile..turned it on the diagonal and cut a few pieces longer and longer to take up that 2+" cause it was right in your face and I cut 2 small pieces for the lower corner that not many people will notice. A lot of thought went into that little wall. The 1" mosaic border came about cause I wanted to fill in yet more space and add more detail. I didn't wanna notch around the niche a whole length of tile. I didn't want cut tiles in the corners. Yeh,,,once its all done you think...why didn't I do so and so...but I figured it came out OK..nothing great at all but its passable.Lotta time just in thinkin' about it.
          Anddddddd I tried doing it with the most inexpensive tiles I could find and still put together a quality job. Lotta thought goes into all of this crap..lol.

           

           

           

          http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

           

          1. andybuildz | Mar 24, 2007 08:37am | #25

            And I won't even talk about doing all this as part of it...lol

             

             

             

            http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

             

          2. stinky | Mar 24, 2007 01:10pm | #26

            I need to go back to remodeling school. Thats called the ultimate job security. stinky

          3. woodguy99 | Mar 25, 2007 03:41am | #28

            Andy, that came out great!  I know how hard it is to figure out reveals, details, and all that and it looks like you really thought it out!

            Did you end up using the Kerdi membrane? 

             

            "This is a process, not an event."--Sphere

            And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig

          4. andybuildz | Mar 25, 2007 03:49am | #29

            Yep...used the kerdi...easy to use. Just have to figure in the extra expense on a job for T&M. Spose' the 2nd and 3rd time will go faster.
            thats why I tried it here first.
            It'll be interesting to see if customers wanna spend the extra money on it. I'm sorta guessing...less than half if that. Its several hundred dollars more in material and several hundred in time on top of the regular backer costs...hmmmm.

             

             

             

            http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

             

          5. brownbagg | Mar 25, 2007 05:55am | #30

            that tile looks good but will that type tile still be in style twenty years from now. I cant decide what tile I want yo to, will it be in style five years from now.

          6. andybuildz | Mar 25, 2007 08:30am | #31

            that tile looks good but will that type tile still be in style twenty years from now. I cant decide what tile I want yo to, will it be in style five years from now.<<<tumbled marble??? "You" gonna be around in twenty years?lol
            I think ALL natural stone stays in vogue sweetie...lol

             

             

             

            http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

             

          7. woodguy99 | Mar 25, 2007 04:49pm | #33

            I think ALL natural stone stays in vogue sweetie...lol

            I don't know--I've seen some gawdy brightly colored shiny marble that was installed in the eightys, with bright brass trim, that looked pretty bad. 

            I always advise my clients that natural materials, in subtle colors and subtle patterns, will stand the test of time.  Bright colors that are all the rage now always seem to look bad ten or twenty years down the road.  Think pink bathroom tile or blue fixtures, or avacodo and harvest gold appliances.

            The materials and patterns you used look like they could have been done in Roman times.  If that style's looked good for a couple thousand years I think you'll be ok. 

             

            "This is a process, not an event."--Sphere

            And I'm a legitimate certifiable Tool Whore.--Dieselpig

          8. DavidxDoud | Mar 25, 2007 05:15pm | #34

            nice work, Andy -

            style?  looks great to me,  call it 'classical', maybe?

            good honest craftmanship never goes out of style -

            I do have a small question - the size of the seat would appear a bit miserly, perhaps - is that an illusion?  how did you decide on that height/width?

            see if Katrina will take some video of you grouting the ceiling -

             

             "there's enough for everyone"

          9. andybuildz | Mar 25, 2007 07:57pm | #35

            I do have a small question - the size of the seat would appear a bit miserly, perhaps - is that an illusion? how did you decide on that height/width?<<<thanks for the kind words David...far as the comment above. You're right if it was a seat but it's not. Its a foot stool and if one wants.... another shelf, which is what seats in showers become anyway.
            I built a huge seat in another shower in this house I don't think I've ever sat on it in five years...we use it for towels and soaps etc and other things on occasion...lol : )~Also..your reply that good craftsmanship never goes out of style was something I was gonna actually say in my previous post but forgot to add so thanks cuz you're so right!Also...anyone that uses bright colors or flash obviously isn't thinking of selling their houses anytime soon and if they are you can be sure of what the rest of the house looks like.
            I always use deep colors in most of the rooms I paint...usually darker colors like maroons or greens and browns but paint can be repainted and almost always is anyway.
            Katrina got on my nerves in our past houses years ago w/her insistence on friggin' linen white which I call "real estate white". I went wild after that...it built up inside of me..the rage...I needed medication and therapy cuz of that friggin' linen white...lol.
            I painted a whole room in the dining room above some chair rail maroon and the hallways a deep green...looked awesome and when people came in and expressed their approval with rounds of applause I was finally vindicated..lol. I feel so free now...I've stopped the use of all meds and therapy : )~

             

             

             

            http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

             

          10. hvtrimguy | Mar 25, 2007 11:43pm | #36

            Andy, That is some real nice tile work. I'm very impressed. I really like to bench with the curved under design. very nice. Post some pics of the final!"it aint the work I mind,
            It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

          11. andybuildz | Mar 26, 2007 04:12am | #37

            That is some real nice tile work. I'm very impressed. I really like to bench with the curved under design. very nice. Post some pics of the final!<<<Will do and thanks...its OK..nothing really that special. I was just glad I could get something out of those cheap tiles is all!!

             

             

             

            http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

             

    2. andybuildz | Mar 24, 2007 08:07am | #21

      Jon
      As I said to him...we didn't see the job so its totally impossible to give him a number closer than within 2-3000 dollars "for whatever thats worth"...but he should know that. In my mind I was guessing thathe wasn't taking into consideration a whole lot of unthought of and unforseen things that will come up as he continues to go over the job with the customer. As I'm sure you're all too well aware of..a few thousand dollars can come and go in the blink of an eye. I've been doing this for about 30+ years and I'd have messed up on figuringt he shower I just did..not by a lot but I'd have figured the time light which is why I'm always sure to mark my jobs up +- depending on all the things I mentioned to him..and in the case of my shower...all the cuts, niche figures, all the things that go into figuring aligning the whole thing up so the end result looks good. Just standing in that shower thinking and measuring takes hours! Always figure in + - dependent on the complexity of a custom job. size has little to do with it.

       

       

       

      http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                   

       

  9. rpait | Mar 24, 2007 05:19pm | #27

    price depends on where you are in the country, if cost is an issue reface the cabinets. find a shop that sells used  like a habitat for humanity store. these places sell for less and the proceeds go to a great cause. most major citys have one. Large corps donate to them as write offs. Also suggest using styles that arent considered all the rage at the moment. whats popular is always more expensive.

  10. oceanstatebuilderinc | Mar 25, 2007 04:28pm | #32

    How can the average middle class family afford it? ...who cares! If they can't afford it, they shouldn't do it. It is kind of like dining out, if you can't tip (and tip correctly), you should eat in.

    Mikey.
    Ocean State Builders Inc.

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