Hi, my boss and I recently discussed me taking on job’s by the job and not by the hour. I have been an hourly employee for 2 years ( I’ve been in the trade’s for almost 20) and he has always treated me well. I wanted a little more money and he says this would be a good way too get that as well as getting me up and running my own business. He has the work too give me and keep me busy. I have a few questions 1- Does this sound like a good idea? 2- Where do I find estimating software or guidelines too help me estimate these job’s effectively keeping myself in the local markets price range’s? Should I just say I want too make X amount an hour and then just figure my time and materials? How do most of you do your estimates? Any and all help is much appreciated, thanks.
I just read thru the other thread on “first big estimate” and it gave me some great insight. any other suggestions would be great thanks.
Edited 8/16/2009 12:27 pm ET by xrcyst
Edited 8/16/2009 12:32 pm ET by xrcyst
Replies
This could be good for you or it could be the beginning of the end.
In all negotiations, the one who mentions a number first, loses. Try to get your employer to lay out the pay schedule for you and then look at it and see if it fits your hourly goals. Don't rush into a decision. Explain that you haven't been tracking your hours on each phase of the job and that you will need some serious time to analyze the numbers.
If your employer intends to make this a fair offering, you might very well be happy with a fixed price arrangement. If he is angling to improve his bottom line by duping the naive, then this arrangement will be very bad for you. By eliminating his risk, he should be offering more, from an hourly point of view, then he is paying now.
......If he is angling to improve his bottom line by duping the naive, then this arrangement will be very bad for you....I think you may have something here he may not have looked at. Will he still have a boss or will he be the boss as in him becoming a sub to the now boss? Which brings up a lot of other questions, issues, problems whatever we want to call them. 1099's, his own insurance. Is he now using the boss' tools or other equipment he may now have to buy?
Does he work with other employees now? He may have to have his own.Better ask alot of questions.
xrcyst
Here are a couple of discussions that may interest you.
There is alot of reading here.
Not being very Profitable by Willie Wonka
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=104492.1
How do you speed up estimating?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96046.1
Mike Smith on Materials markup Days /year and markup on T&M
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=107892.63
Materials Markup
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=107892.1
Job Costing and Estimates
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=117568.1
Anderson Estimating software
http://www.superbuild.com/pricing.aspx?partner=andersen&CC=rem
Simple Excel worksheet
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=120723.1
Craftsman site License
http://craftsman-book.com/products/index.php?main_page=cbc_product_software_info&cPath=39&products_id=387
Rich
Hey Rich...I'm back with my Excel Sheet as we speak. doing that proposal I toldja about and I'm using Excel to get it all organized. Used your link and The Dummies book. I'll let ya know how it goes. So far so good : ) Keepin' it as simple as I can.View Image
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andy
Let me know if you need help.
We can even work over the phone some evening if you get frustrated.
If we have the same worksheet in front of each of us then we can cut thru the clutter.
BTW I use Office 2003.
Rich
Cool. Thanks. If my Dummies book doesn't spell it out I'll give you a shout. Seems some things like the % function isn't clear I think. I need to re-look at it.I started redoing my spreadsheet using Google Docs Spreadsheet b/c I like that it's saved on the internet and I can access it from anywhere. Not sure what version thats considered.Jerrald's Mac here has Mac's Excel X service release 1 (whatever that means)
My PC has 2003 but like I said I'm using Google Docs....unless anyone thinks for some reason Google Docs is no good. Seems fine to me.View Image
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andy
I think you have to decide who your are going to talk with thru your spreadsheets.
For instance I will have a worksheet with materials prices. If the prices are current or close enough then I just go with the those prices.
If I think the prices need to be updated then I cut and paste those couple of columns and then send the document to my lumberyard salesman and ask him to fill in the current prices.
When I get it back then I can just copy and paste the new prices.
Sometimes if it is a big job they want to give me a quote on the whole job on their computer.
But oftentimes I work with simple jobs and I have a list of 25 to 100 items that need to be tracked. Roofing, basement remodels, barn steel or garages.
Most every one has access to and understands Excel.
Google spreadsheet is probably similar but I have never looked at it.
I have taken Excel sheets and transfered to Open Office.
Rich
Steve
All the prices on my spread sheet are the current prices I was just quoted from my supplier. I'm just trying to get em' all organized line by line so I can add everything up.
Check to see how much waste I need to add on to certain items and readjust my numbers....then they'll also be filed for future current references.My customer won't be seeing any of this. It's specifically for me to work a price up with and use to make changes as they arise. It will also let me know when the time comes what window or door goes where b/c I'll be organizing everything I can room by room.I did all the take offs myself which is quite a feat on a job this size but I don't trust them to do it for me which some yards will do. As much as I'd love them do all the take offs I'm too afraid they might get something wrong. No sweat off their backs if they do.Anyway...I've got the Excel "basics" down..even the % thing now. Just need to look up to see if there's a shorter way to do the same calculation process for % in less steps.Thanks for the help bro. I think I have it down enough to do what I need to do for this job. After most all of it is on paper...I mean Excel : )~ I'm gonna go back and try and restructure things so it's even more understandable and easier to work through when I need to do so.
Thanks again
andyView Image
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Andy
All the prices on my spread sheet are the current prices I was just quoted from my supplier. I'm just trying to get em' all organized line by line so I can add everything up.
You think that you are building a one time tool here.
Another job comes along that is similar and then you pull out the template from job A and change the prices and the quanities and then you have a new estimate.
This way you don't reinvent the wheel every time.
Rich
Rich
Well thats what I'm hoping. I spent a good 10+ hours today transferring all my numbers to a spread sheet. Of course I'm new to this so I'm sure I'm spending a few hours more then if I was more experienced but I learned a lot today. I still have a good ways to go but I'm on my way and pretty deep into it.
I'd show you what I have but I don't think it's a very good idea revealing all this in the forum (on-line). You never know who's reading this stuff .View Image
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andy
I looked at Google docs and it looks like a very simple version of Excel. Many of the same rules.
I did not like the way it did sum.
With Excel if you click on sum it makes a guess at what you want totaled and it is outlined with squiggly lines. Sometimes it's right and sometimes you have to highligh and change it. With Google you have to highlight from the git go.
I could get one column to show in cents. If I had 10 in column A and 1.2 in colum B then the total came out as 12, but column B still read 1. I did 1 in column B first and then I tried to change it to 1.2.
It was like a round down or round up function was enabled.
You will want to share your worksheets with people over time and you will want to get new prices. It's laborious to enter all new prices by hand.
If you are comfortable with it we can go to e-mail to look at your document.
I won't steal your job until I know what the address is. :)
Rich
The address is on the spread sheet and I sent it to you so knock yerself out....lol.
I think I noticed that rounding off thing you were talking about but it seemed like it was just pennies. spose I could go into their forum and ask about that.I dunno..the SUM feature seemed pretty simple. Didn't seem any different then when I did it on 2003 or whatever year my other Excel is on the PCView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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I love my excel. I didn't like google. Open office was okay.
My roofing spreadsheet is now about nine sheets deep. I punch in five key input numbers and a few accessories and I get the wholesale cost, retail high and low sell marked up prices, purchase order for the shingles (addressed to three different suppliers), Work Order for the labor (preaddressed to two different vendors), gutter work order. There is a worksheet showing all the steps to figure the caps, starter, drip mold etc. I also get the waivers of lien printed.
Like I said...I love excel. I can fill all that paperwork out in less than three minutes on most roofs.
Like I said Jim...I'd love to use the Excel on my Sony but if the thing gives out my work will be lost and it took me forever to get where I got with this proposal and Jerralds Mac I'm using ain't mine so...
Might try and figure out how to take what I have on my Google Doc Excel spread sheet and see if there's an easy way to add it to the other PC's where I have Excel in it's true form.View Image
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I've successfully exported Google docs to Excel. I think....
I've also done it with Open Office to excel. I think....
I've never used a MaC. Right now, all my real work is on a Sony Vaio, which I've decided that I like. It took me a while to stop complaining like an old curmudgeon but after I settled down, I can live with it (Vista).
I think I mentioned that my roofing spreadsheet is 9 sheets deep. It's actually 10. It automatically generates the FAX I need to get the materials shipped. This isn't really any great feat for someone that understands the true power of excel and spreadsheets but for me, it's like climbing Mt Everest. I'm telling you this so that you can feel confident that if you keep at it, you'll eventually feel very comfortable replacing your legal pads. I was the same as you and I rarely reach for them anymore.
Jim
I have a feeling it may have something to do with trying to import it...or export it from a Mac but I'm not really certain.
It's not all that big that I can't retype it into a REAL Excel sheet which I may just do.I'm actually kinda amazed at all the yellow paper I was able to throw in the garbage can next to me after everything was entered into the spreadsheet.
In the past I saved every single scrap of paper so I could go back later to see how I got what I got when things started getting confusing...lol.Nice to have it all so organised and simple looking. It's ok that I used the Google Doc this time. It was my primer....lol.
This job is so big (for me) I didn''t wanna get turned off with Excel.
I "almost" didn't use it at all. I'm just a Google junkie...I love Google things but I can see how this version is real limited...unless I'm missing something.There is a forum etc for it which I'll check out....maybe there's some hidden features I'm missing...altough I doubt it.View Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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your boss is having production issues. I've seen this happen before and even have done it myself. it doesnt make sense to pay some people by the hour. give them a fixed amount to complete a task and they get their butt moving
the man is looking out for his bottom line, not yours. if things were getting done in a timely manor the man would never even have these thoughts. if he can get you to work by the project he will succeed in getting you to trim your own fat.
and you dont know, maybe he isnt very proficient at estimating. if he can get you to estimate his projects then add on a percentage you cut his involvement down. then he does not have to provide a vehicle, tools, blades, repairs, comp, liability ins, etc
Re estimating materials the only reliable method is to build the project in your mind from the ground up. Sure I use spread sheets and some other tools to help, but there is no substitute for the required work.
I once took an estimating class. The only thing I really got out of it - since I was already experienced - was a list of recommended waste factors for various materials - like wall studs, 3 tab shingles, etc.
If you are doing the same type of work over and over, you can develop a list of shortcuts like cost per sq ft, etc.
One guy's line here is: "no amount of work can make up for a bad estimate." (or similar) Words to live by.